No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Watch your language. That's way it was flagged.
I'm tiered reading pages on pages of links others wrote. I've told you that you may post your own. I don't read nor refer any more to other (like Nelson pass) articles.

Why do we have to repeat everything again (and again)?

1.       I've told you not to hold your breath for the cables formula. I did offer to calculate for all, for free, what cable they need. For some, who had a problem to get the DF, I walked the extra mile to contact the manufacturer and get the information.

I reserve my right, not to give away my formula, at least not for free.

If you think it worth for you, pass me an offer on the privet massaging (-:

2.       Nelson Pass is not arguing with me. You do. I've told you to bring your own say, not others. You claimed you did measurements to prove me wrong! Where are they? Please show us what and how you measured what, and the results.

3.       On my side, there are six guys (five on this thread) that tried it out and came back with results and impressions. I may say that they were all happy with the results.

Please refer to the excel table I posted earlier.

What would support my claim, if not an evidence of six people who had a recommended cable by some dealer, replaced by a calculated cable, and their report of the improvement in sound?

Not to say, that they invested in that cable, less than US $ 100.- for a result that mostly is unheard of, in this hobby.

There are two things that do connect my claim: I show (by calculation) the right cable to use and once it is used, the owner's report of what it improved.

It is a bit unfair, after some claimed that all it matters is sound and how we hear it, that you come to claim, it is not good for you and that you want scientific prove.

I'm afraid that it would get into par. 1 of this post, why it was not added. Let's keep it that way for now.

As far as this dialog is getting, everything on your summery post has been said already, done and dusted. Why anyone would want to read it all over again, nor re write it?

 

" I reserve my right, not to give away my formula, at least not for free."

So, if not to make money, just like the cable manufacturers, why not reveal the formula? Or are you just a noble person and the accolades of a half dozen questionable participants good enough for you? 

I assume that you and Mr. kosst_amojan are giving a lot all the time for free and now you are wondering why not all do so?

All you were doing on this thread is giving me hard time with your negative and hostile attitude. Now you think that you deserve to receive the formula as a gift?

Happy dreams.

How is it that someone like the OP can dangle so much nothing and get so much attention?

There is no relevance to what the OP has to offer other than the illusion of some secret sauce. It doesn't exist. The DF of an amp does not define anything, nor does the minimum impedance of a speaker. These factors are not predictive of anything.

And why haven't speaker and amp designers, who are ALL far more talented than the OP, come up with such "calculations" or "standard guidelines?" Because there would be no value.

Ok guys. This is going to end now and here. If your boss, of the cable industry you may represent wish to have a conversation, I'm here. For you: I'm no more available.

It would be interesting if the first 3 AudioGon members are still using the DIY cables. Please chime in. The latter 3 are not AG members.

https://imgur.com/a/tgGNIvB

I swapped mine out for solid silver cables. Partly to tidy up on the cables in what is a fairly tight space.

Wow! 4 gauge solid silver. That must have set you back a bunch.

Not quite. I didn't stick to the rules about gauge for these.
And I was on 0 gauge before. :)

I ended up not playing... I wanted to though as I was curious but as the thread went on I lost interest. Interesting thread and been fun to read but I agree with most and question the OP for being so secretive on his formula. Instead of blowing the money on the battery cable I bought a couple power receptacles and am very happy with that purchase.

I’m getting a bad feeling. 😥 Damage Control! Damage Control!

And, maybe an adjustment to the "formula" ?

For tnose who have endured his long inane ramblings on the various turntable forums, I propose we crown Mr b4icu the "Raul" of speaker wire theory

Conrad, I would be interested in your opinion of the silver speaker cables. I am using silver interconnects, like them and have been thinking of trying some.

I'm very happy with them.

I got 2x1m and 1x2m cables, each with 8 silver solid core wire, cryo'd, with built in jumpers at the speaker ends, solid sliver spades, and made with silver solder. Each cable is in a teflon sleeve, then litz braided, then covered in an outer sleeve. Additionally I had mine covered in nylon braid, just for aesthetics.
I also got 5x1m XLR cables. Total cost was £540.

I'm was going to get some clearday and cabledyne cables as well, to compare, but clearday aren't making any more and cabledyne aren't in stock.

As for sound, they're very nice. Not too much added brightness, a little more clarity and transparency, and better instrument placement. I think I'm limited by my physical space now, rather than any component or cable.

So far I've tried: van damme blue (not highly rated), 0 gauge battery cable (a step up from van damme, but that might just be a cable maintenance issue), kimber 12TC (nice, but a nightmare to work with).

I've got to a point where I'm probably going to stop looking at cables for this system until I move. Once I have a larger room with better dimensions I'll come back to them. At the moment I feel I've got about the right level of price vs performance that I can get in my current space.

Thanks for your input, I think I am going to give silver a try, I only need a 5ft. pair as I have limited space too...

b4icu;

   what type of conductor do you use? Btw, I have known & done this for decades but I still haven`t needed to use 0awg on anything. 


cakyol; you are correct on one thing but wrong on an other

What is your Amp's DF and how long is the cable required?

The #0 awg is the cable for a narrow combinations of Amp's / Length.
In some cases. less is required, in some more!

For the purpose of damping the membrane speaker cable doesn't matter, since it is a fraction of an ohm in series to many ohms of the speaker impedance (breaking back EMF current circuit).  Best effective DF you can get is about 1.5 and DF>25 (not to make it much worse) is OK. Benchmark calculated that for the purpose of audible voltage drop, assuming load change from 3 to 18 ohms, DF=250 is sufficient.  The problem here is, that you might not want amplifier to do that (forcing current at impedance dips).  That's why perhaps many like low DF tube amps.

Mr. kijanki

It is interesting that you contradict yourself in the same sentence.
If you like low DF ube sound, you are welcome.
If you look into a higher DF of SS A/B class or very high DF of D class, it matters.
It is about controlling the speaker's membran (EFM).
The analysis, is going from the speaker point of view of the Amp's output stage, so it (the speaker) is not part of it. It never was. The fact we all cal the cables, Speaker cables is misleading.
Actually, the Amp's makers should have provide their recommendations.
There is a lot of ignorance in that area. The cable makers took it to a whole wrong direction, as they have no idea about their products and the # AWG significe.
 

The kenjit of speaker cables rears his head again, oh joy.

^^^^^^^^    +1

Mr. Dill

Isn't it a bit supercilious to claim your stuff, the way you do, without ever try it yourself?

It is easier to sit at the stand and criticize those who play the game.
It's also a disgrace.

b4icu, yes there is a lot of ignorance in this area, so let me try to explain how membrane damping works. When amplifier outputs positive voltage membrane goes forward. Motion of the membrane is caused by electric current thru the coil. When membrane moves on its own in the same direction it produces back EMF voltage of the same polarity. This voltage will produce current that flows from the speaker to amplifier. This current has opposite direction now, producing force that moves membrane in opposite direction - in effect stopping it. This current is equal to back EMF voltage divided by impedance in the circuit including cable, amp’s output and speaker itself. Even if we assume only resistive part of speaker’s impedance (bass frequencies) it is still about 2/3 of rated impedance. For an 8 ohm speaker it will be likely around 6 ohms. So now you have 6 ohms in the circuit and likely another 0.1 ohm of the woofer’s xover coil. Reducing down cable’s resistance (0.05 ohm for 2x10ft gauge 14 wire), won’t change anything since you already have 6.1 ohm in the circuit.
So, for the purpose of the membrane damping best effective DF=1.5 (nominal 8 ohm divided by resistive part of the impedance). When we choose an amp with DF=25 it will lower overall damping by about 5% (in comparison to DF=2500). Changing wire gauge from 16 to 4 will improve damping by 1% only. The easiest exercise you can do is to take woofer, short it and try to move membrane by hand. It will be hard to move it, regardless if you short it with short jumper or long cable (you won’t feel any difference).

b4icu said on 2/19/2019: " I’m no more available."
Yet, here you are. Now that is a disgrace.

You`re funny kijanki. Ever thought of trying out those calculations in real life settings? And if you did, do you have the skills to understand what you`re observing?

unfairlane, claiming that only speaker cable or amp's output impedance affects damping, without taking into account resistance of the coil, shows lack of understanding of basic principles.  It also appears that you share this lack of understanding, but at least I made you smile.

I JUST LCULATED wow DUDE!!!!!!

Mr. kijank

I didn’t defined what DF is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor
"Only the resistive part of the loudspeaker impedance is used. The amplifier output impedance is also assumed to be totally resistive".
Loudspeaker impedance is given (when DF is kindly provided) for 8 ohms, and at a frequency of 1kHz. Just saying.
Speaker’s impedance is not just the coil. It has some RCL network in the crossover circuit, and mostly very poor wiring.
But that is a given. It sounds as you hear it on demo and buy it as a sealed box (black box).
Thats to cover your "lack of understanding of basic principles".
When analyzing such a circuitry, doing it with all 3:
Amp’s output, cables, speaker,
You get nowhere.
In electronics, DF, or output resistance is practically looking from the Amp’s output terminals into the Amp, and figure what is it’s output resistance. I extended it to include the speaker cables. This is my way to unlock the puzzle. You may go your way. However, none of you, including you, haven’t came with a say: what should your speaker cable be like?
I did.
For the sake f this endless arguing between me and those who sit on the bench and criticize, go give it a try and then lets talk. Till then, you better spend this precious time and energy, preying in the house of god. It will make you feel better and you will be pissing of one less guy.

Mr.  ebm

Thanks. 
All you have to say on the subject, is that I had typo?
It's not much from your side to bring to this table.
Just for the record, some others already paid attention and made this remark B4.
Are you the guy who mock those who stutter or have a limp?
You must be very proud of yourself.

Mr. dill

I've heard that there are people, that all there purpose in life, is to be a bad example. You fit quite well into that category.
Your place must be in politics. Audio is kind of small for you. 

Amp DF = 50
4 ohm speaker
6 ft length

Wire gauge?

Mr.  eichlerera

For DF=50 and length of 6 feet (2 m), you need a #16 AWG.

1. No need for speakers impedance. They are not in this game (speaker cable).
2. DF=5 is relatively low. It was common (40~) at Japanese amps and receivers of the 70's. 

Well, since my Fidelium Cable is between 14 and 16 AWG, looks like it passes your criteria. Plus it's skin effect issues are minimized.

Mr.  eichlerera

I'm sorry to kill your impression of skin effect on Audio frequencies.
The figure (at the AWG table) refers to full power at x frequency.
An other way to look at that, is that thin cables have low current capacity at DC, so it is close or identical to that in all Fr. Thick cables, that can conduct 10th or hundreds of Amps at DC, are a bit less of higher Fr.
But even so, if you look into Audio energy vs. Fr., the most power is at the lower Fr.: under 1 kHz. most of the stuff over 10 kHz are harmonics that are of very low energy. So skin effect is not for Audio, It mostly present at RF and very high frequencies, at high power (Radar etc'.).

b4icu,

How do you believe the signal propagates through a speaker cable?

As in any other cable. No particular significance of any type, at Audio freq. 
The only characteristics I found significant, is the cable resistance vs the Amp's DF. 
It works all the way up to the calculated value (improves sound) but do not improves above (thicker than calculated).

No.
I'm asking how you think the actual signal travels through the conductor.

Hi
Google it up. I never thought it matters, after all, we use it, on daily bases, in every electric device on the planet. For some reason, audiophiles tend to think that it is special in their sound system. Well it’s the same. Many of those are life saving equipment, military, space, measurement devices, cellphones and more. None ever tend to go, where audiophiles go: BS land.

Not interested in Googling.
I want to know YOUR theory on how electrons flow through the conductor.

Mr.  eichlerera
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't have a theory of MY OWN, on electrons flow through the conductor. I learned it as all other from the very basics on conductivity. 
It served me well, on all circuitry I designed, built and tested. 

This reads like kenjit created a new on-line persona to bring his unique perspective on speakers to speaker cables. Clever. What next? Amplifiers? DACs? So many targets for a guy with an obsession to feed and no discernible listening skills, leaving only one way it can go. Blather on, dude. Blather on.