No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Mr. kijanki

It is interesting that you contradict yourself in the same sentence.
If you like low DF ube sound, you are welcome.
If you look into a higher DF of SS A/B class or very high DF of D class, it matters.
It is about controlling the speaker's membran (EFM).
The analysis, is going from the speaker point of view of the Amp's output stage, so it (the speaker) is not part of it. It never was. The fact we all cal the cables, Speaker cables is misleading.
Actually, the Amp's makers should have provide their recommendations.
There is a lot of ignorance in that area. The cable makers took it to a whole wrong direction, as they have no idea about their products and the # AWG significe.
 

Mr. Dill

Isn't it a bit supercilious to claim your stuff, the way you do, without ever try it yourself?

It is easier to sit at the stand and criticize those who play the game.
It's also a disgrace.

Thanks, but sorry...NO.
I'm talking here on speaker's cables only. So lets leave the other cables out ot this discussion. 
The only insite I have from your answer, is that
You say "try and error with a budget".
I say, "Tell me what brand and model your amp. and speakers are, what is the distance between them - and I'll calculate for you what cable is required".
The optimum cable for the money. First time - and also the last.

Why would I get lost over and over agin, waist my time and money, rather that use a GPS nav device or a map, and get there first time on spot?
For the un of it...
As for the optimum, as I assume you already own an amplifier and a set of speakers, they are given. so is placment that requires the length.
You may never know if your preference is right, till you get to hear the optimum (the one) and compar.
Other cables: if I use XLR's and an ordinary catle power cord, I'm good. 
It won't get any better than that.

On top, it dosn't alter my opening line:
No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

What you say, when I'll here it, I'll know it is. Till than, just going in circles, spending money and enjoy the journy. Hope you are not on the same page on other subjects, as health.

Hi Steve
What amplifier and speakers do they connect?

Ok.
Sorry for the speling. English is my 3rd laguage. This site does not allow to copy from word (speler). So you need to be pasined. Thanks.
To exampls:
A PASS LAB 250W power amp, with B&W802 diamond - 3m long:
4 AWG.
An EMOTIVA 250W power amp, with Vienna acoustics beethiven - 2.5m
0 AWG.
The point is that no other is up to the task. The link:  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-cable.htm deals with interconnect. Not with speakers cables. Ther the parasatic capacitance of the line has a tall on the highs. Balnced lines solve the issue.

What makes you think that you got the right cable now? 
This is a blind shot in the dark as all other cables before. 
You still may have a cable that is not getting the best out of your speakers. You just don't know that.

For the gut with the Bryston 4BSST2 and 24’ long cables:
You are not doing well. The Bryston 4BSST2 http://www.bryston.com/PDF/Manuals/300006[3B4B].pdf have a DF of 500. You need a 3x0 AWG! it may be expensive...
You better get closer, as 8’ and use a single 0 AWG. An other option, is to used two monoblocks and a shoer (3’) of a 4 AWG cable.

For the guy with the  Opera Consonance Cyber 800, even thou you have monoblks, because it is tube (very bad DF) and no data on DF! you may use any cable over 24 AWG thick (home phone line).

Mr. sleepwalker65 your math is wrong. The cable is fighting the power (P) or the current (I). I used Klipsh speakers (8 ohms) with 99dB/w/m SPL with a Caver 250W amp. that played at
0.001W-1W as loud as it should and still a thicker cable improved sound! 
The coin been lost under the Damping Factor (DF) parameter. The higher that is, the thicker the cable you need. It is about controling the speaker, not doing a welding, towing a truck or any other idea you were throwing as you thought it is funny.  

Mr. cakyol
All cooper for electrical use is 99.5% pure. Try to get one with less!
Most cables are using wires as thick as 12-14 AWG because that’s the thicker they can fit into their banana plug (Not a very sintific one).
All qualities they say they give the cables: Cooper purity, use of silver, cryogenic treatment, Bi Wire, Burn In etc’ - has nothing to do with the spec. of a speaker cable. It’s all snake oil mambo jumbo, to cover their and customers ignorance.

Mr.  sleepwalker65
The answer is with the Damping Factor (DF) of your amplifier. There are some exceptions, if he speakers are not coil loaded (ribbon, electrostatic etc'.) or if the Amp. is a class-D type. But most, use a A-B class amp with ordinary speakers.
DF is defined as the ratio between the Amp's. output resistance (Ro, in Ohms) vs. an 8 ohms speaker, @ 1kHz.
As so, an Amp. with a DF of 500 has a Ro of 8/500=0.016 ohms.
The DF is given and you get it as you buy your Amp. It is used to be the higher the DF, the better is the Amp. Some use very stiff feedback to achive it - Not so good.
Others, may have tube amps. that have very low DF as low as 8! 
The DF is actually the way the Amp. is getting control over the speaker's coil. A coil, especially a moving one in a magnetic field, generates an electric current that is equal to the one made it move, but in the opposite direction. It is called the "Lentz" law.
Speaker cables are in a way two resistors (Rc) that connect the power Amp. to the speaker. Why two? becuse the cables go to the speaker (red) and goes back (black) to the amplifier. 
As so, the speaker's impedace has no significance in this electrical circuit.
The speaker cables resistance, just need to be significantly lower than the DF.
Other wise, the DF would decrease. So if the Rc = DF you actually have a 1/2 of the DF you paid for. This guy with his  Bryston 4BSST2, with a DF of 500 is now enjoying an Amplifier equals to a poor reciever of the 70's with a DF of about 40!
In other words, he is maybe listening to less than 10% of his equipment's full potential.
The long (24') that would count as 2xRc, is actually equals to the resistance of a 48' long cable. A few more feet and you need transportation to go visit them! :-) Why so long?
A thick cable (4 AWG and thicker) is hard to make and would cost a lot. Rather than go that long with cables, it is better to get the amplifier closer, maybe use two monoblocks and guid a blanced interconnect (XLR) that can run up to 100m with no sound degradation, while cost's little. 

Hi
I would aspect cables maker to specify:

1. The actual cooper gauge.
2. The cable length (feet or meter).
3. It’s actual resistance (for a single and for a pair (Red+Balck) in Ohms.

I already made cables of 4 AWG (3m) and 0 AWG (2.5m).
Also has the technical solution to make 2x0 AWG and 4x0 AWG cables.
So far, all cables were made for free, only cost of material.

Can this site (forum) hold pictures? I can attach some.

For all who think it is a joke, you better check it out. First thing, you can get your speakers closer to the amplifier (as a start) and use some jump start cables between the amp. and speaker. Be carfull not to do any short circuit on amp’s outputs!
You may be surprised (for the good) from the sonic change! after that you may come back and share that with us. At the end, ask your self what is the right gauge you need and how to get one. You realize that the jump start cables can not to stay for long.

It is better to understand the relations between amplifiers, speaker cables and speakers, do a knowladgble calculation, and by that make a custom cable to fit - rather than gues and try, with no particular direction or insight.

0 guage (AWG) wires are difficult to work with. They are thick. Too thick to solder, as by the time the tin melts, the isolator also gets burned. It is no longer as good for isloating, it exposes the cooper to oxidize and look bad. The cable itself can not fit into any banana plug on the market. An agent must be connected between the two.
A 0 AWG cable is more costly than a 14 AWG, more heavy and less flexible. However, all can be overcome with some technology. Even up to 4 times 0 AWG!
Most cables on the market (regardless of price factor) are not getting thicker than 14 AWG. For this reason.
Some would look thick, but hey are looking so because a thick isolating tube over a regular 12-14 AWG cooper core.
Some make thick cable, but charge a lot for them. This might not be a problem, for others who spend that much on a power cable, that really makes no sense at all.
The market, as for what it is, is tricky. None tels you what their cable is good for (DF, Rc, or other), a lot of urban legends are sticked to them (cryogenic, cooper purity, high end banana plugs!) and a nylone sleve that looks nice, to cover the poor materials beneath.
Price: What would you think a 0 AWG, 2.5m (8’) long speaker cable set should cost? (if guage goes thicker or cable longer, it would naturally cost more).

Pictures:
A 4 AWG connected to a B&W802D:
https://imgur.com/a/42eh3h1
The other end is connected to a 250W PASS LAB power Amp.made for a friend in Israel:
https://imgur.com/a/LF0vyGZ
A set of 0 AWG cables before shipping to my friend in Canada:
https://imgur.com/a/gkuHdcD
An other view of 1 set: 0 AWG 2.5m long, to connect between a 250W EMPTICA power Amp.
and a pair of Vienna acoustics Beethoven speakers:
https://imgur.com/a/qwcIbTn
For both cables, the outcome was noticable.
This is the comment of the 0 AWG cables replacing a 12’ 14 AWG set:

"My initial impressions: It’s like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I didn’t know my speakers were capable of.

It feels that for all these years my speakers were being choked, and now can suddenly breathe and have their full voice.

To say I’m happy about my new Lang speaker cables is an understatement. I’m thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash the full potential of my home sound system".

For posting pictures to this site / forum:

Use his site to upload: https://imgur.com/a/42eh3h1

Add a new post. Copy the URL address (https://imgur.com/a/gkuHdcD) and paste it here. It works!

Regarding Mr. Dill’s Q: " What about a double run of 0 AWG wire?
Should be twice as good ...."

The low cable resistance has an optimum value. After that, getting more gauge, would have little or no benefit (sonic) but will cost way more, as more material and labor are involved.

This optimum value need to be calculated. The result, should be rounded up to the next AWG avaliable on the guage table:
https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Ref. to this table, a 4 AWG cable has a 0.81508 Ohm per 1,000m or
0.00081508 Ohm per 1m to have this as twice as good: 0.406392 Ohm,
requires a 1 AWG cable.
In other words, if you would need a 1m of 4 AWG, by doubling the length to 2m, it would now require a 1 AWG cable. or two 4 AWG in parallel. Two equal resistors in parallel = R/2 (of half the value of one resistor).
If in series, it is 2R (by ohm’s law).

Mr. douglas_schroeder
I oppened this disscusion on speaker cables. Please let's keep it clean from other cables. Thanks.

What I think about the subject?
The power cord has no significance at all in Audio.
It is the last 3’ you tackel, while many are barried in your walls all the way to an AC distribution box and beyond.
No one had shown any scintific avidance, of any advantage of one power cord over the other.
Tell me pleas, if you use a TOTL US $1,000.- power cord connected to your cattle to boil some water, would it make a better tea?
I don't think so. 
You better use some AC filters, if you live at a place that your mains are noisy. That also may do some ON/OFF turn sequence, to guard your speakers from clicks if any.

Mr. Dill, this is not the one you address (Amazone). It is a good 0 AWG cooper wire.
I’ll tell you a secret: All cables are having a nylon sleve over, for a reason: So no one can see what is beneath it.
No one will cut a cable that cost’s a leg and an arm to check it. The cable they use, is no better.
Some are way wors.

Nakamichi banana:
The Nakamichi banana plugs are the best of all I tryed. The part that goes into the binding post, has the best contact area. The same is used in labs. It also can hold wires up to 8 AWG. No other do.
CHORD COMPANY SPEAKER CABLE 4MM BANANA PLUGS (SET OF 2) use the same: http://www.analogueseduction.net/banana-plugs/chord-company-speaker-cable-4mm-banana-plugs-set-of-2....
The Nakamichi are better,

The actual cable, is more than the sum of it’s parts. The genuin testemony of my friend (no commercials) is peaking for itself. Even I was surprised for the good. It simply works and do a big change.

PS. No thanks for solving the attached pictures issue on this site/forum? 

Mr. Dill
This banana plug is as good as it gets. A friend who was a QA at a large hi-tech firm checked the subject and ended up with those over all others.
The tip is making a way better contact (felxibility and surface ares), than other methodes. It also last longer and can connect directly to an 8 AWG wire. Thicker than most others would. They can get wires only as thick as 12 AWG.

Regarding the cable, it might be some better or more expensive stuff out there. However, the calculations and the results, show no complains.
Why pay more? much more?
What is the market price for a 2.5m (8') long, 0 AWG speaker's cables set?
The last I've hurd of, made by a respected brand (!) was $32,000.-
for a 4 AWG.
They have on the TOTL a 0 AWG too. I assume it is even more expensive. I can get it done and shipped for way less, including an accurate calculation for the best required cable for the system.
Expensive is not a better quality. On a market, that two items will deliver the same, the cheaper will prevail.

Regardles of experience, NONE came out with the answer:
How to calculate a speaker's cable, or even a clue of what cable is needed. I understand it is hard to admit such a thing, at a time claiming of so much experience.
The other ideas were much of let's give it a try and hear if we like it.
Not a sucssesive way to get it right on the first trial. If having experience like that count's I'm out. But I think, it doesn't!
What is a very experienced member? 10 years, 20 years, 30 years...of experience?  I've 45 years. I'm in this hobby since i was 15. 
I orgenized 6 audio seminars, demos, lectures, on the 3rd, Mr. Yair Tamam, founder of Magico speakers gave a speach on speakers...and the list goes on and on.
Experience alone, wont help. Some education in electronics, working with the top Hi-Tech firms, using the ears and mostly what's between them - is more important. The problem (understanding the way how to calculate the speaker's cable by the equipment it connects) is solved. Now it is only for you and other members to accept. Thanks.

Just seen this add. on this site:
http://www.jpslabs.com/speakercable.shtml
For jps cables.
Not a word on any technical data: resistance, for what equipment they are good for...They do talk about a lot of power (Watts) or current (Amp’s) and a shield for speaker cables: What is that good for, at a time the Amp. output resistance is less than 0.016 ohms (FD=500). This is more like a short circuit. Any one who knows a little in electronics, can tell you it won’t pick any noise. And the output signal is relativly large.
They look awsem. I can give them that. Put them a silk tie or a dress and they are ready for a graduation party. Is it important to look that good or is it important to fit the system or produce a btter sound?
Somthing must justify the price...So lets do them look good.

Sorry, I have no picture of that taken.
I'll try to explain.
The ideais to use a short 8 AWG (the thickest wire that can fit into the banana plug) that is going between the banana plug and the 0 AWG cable.
As I said in one of my posts, an 0 AWG can not be soldered. It takes to long till the tin melts. By the time it does, the plastick sleve is damaged and a significant part of the cable's adge is subjected to oxidization.
I use a cable shoe to fit (DIN 70 size) and crimp it with a 0 AWG crimping tool.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DROF-Mechanical-crimping-tool-for-10-to-2-0-AWG-6-to-50-mm-Made-of-Steel/16...

The 0 AWG is kind of difficult to work with. every step that would be eassy with an ordinary wire (up to 12 AWG) is getting bulky.

I do not use spades. They are not good for contact (it gets lose in time) and every here and there it need's to be fasten. An endless maintenance.

If you are into make one for yoursrlf, I may offer you that service.

Going back for a minute to the JPS cable Add.:
http://www.jpslabs.com/aluminata.shtml
Even though it is a power cable, they state: 60A and 14,000W and 250A and 48,000W. Absolutly impressing...
By the AWG standard (https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm) a 60A requires an 8 AWG and 250A a 000 AWG (50% thicker than a 0 AWG. Two are required and a GND). None would fit into that cable, even it looks really thick.
Do you see the nylon sleev? It’s for you not to see what is beneath it.
However, the IEC standard 60906-2 (2011) limits the power to 20A.
Older versions are up to 15A.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country
Any liscenced electrician would tell you that. What they state is not legal.
That would end with burned or melted pins on the plug. A house line is also limited and even the 60A needs a 3 phase instalation. The plug showen is for 1 phase. A long story is told there, without any sense to back up the price (?).
I'm just trying to show you guys, what is going on in this dubious industry.
My question, is what is that good for? So is the thing with speaker cables. They will tell you a lot to keep a friday night conversation on the subject, to keep you happy, but not much of the most important and required properties.

Mr. grannyring
What equaipment are you going to connect, and how long your cable is going to be?
I’ll repeat my say: not all need a 0 AWG! some don’t need a thick cable at all, some do, some need it even thicker. It better be calculated.
It would be a dissapointing DIY project to end it up with no actual sonic benefit.
I’m not saying go 0 AWG it’s the best! I’m saying let’s calculate (engineering!) the right cable and than get it, the first time right.

Your Amp. is class D (Digital PCM). No DF or output impedance is provided:
http://lyngdorf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/tdai-2170-owners-manual_v17.pdf
The 30A output is the only clue but not good enough.
Speakers: conventional coil loaded. Ok.
As so, I'll do an assumption, that the  Lyngdorf 2170 have a DF of 250.
For 20' a 3x0 AWG might be required. For an 8' a 3 AWG would do.

The cables you are using, are too long to my like. I understand your managment desire and other esthetic issues. Fire place steals the mid placment option of the Amp. between the two speakers.

Use what ever cable you think is good for you. The one I used had excelent results. You are welcome to take your favorite.

Mr. sejodiren says: I use jumpers for my speakers. who needs banana plugs...
Enjoy. The contact with the clamps of the jumper cables are at a very little area. A good banana plug is way better on contact. also less risky if it disconnects or the red wire touchs the black...

The link goes to a 4 AWG cable that claims 500A. by the guage table, a 4 AWG can conduct only 60A cont.
or 135A momentary. Just for the record, not that you need that high current.
I also do not like that they are molded in two parallel lines.

Mr. grannyring, you say: 
"Based on your way of thinking, which I don’t agree with totally, "
It is up to you to accept or decline my say.
Please be kind to acknowladge me when and if you get any (other) explanation or way to calculate a speaker cable. 
As far as my search reached, there is nothing else out there.
Most just embrace the usual: high purity cooper (in electricity nothing is made under 99.5%) creyogenic treat, bi wire, burn in, or exotic snake oil :-)
All non sintific says, that never convinced me to solve the relations or get the true answer. So, good luck with that.

Mr. grannyring
I feel like my idea was not thoroughly understood.
It is not about thickening the wire, the thicker - the better.
It is about doing an engineering calculation, that is based on the equipment spec., to specify the precise guage your system requires. In some cases, getting closer to that guage would get a better sound, but after reaching that gauge, getting thicker with the cable, will not add quality, only get more expensive.
This is not like tuning in with endless try and error, as it is mostly done today.
Your chaise after a specific cooper wire, is not the point. You are captive of cable’s manufacturers promo, with promisses that are not helping your sound getting any better. It is only the product getting more expensive.
It is an awful VFM. 

Regarding your say on Burn In and Cryo, let me get a bit humoristic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
It would get you an idea, what I think about those subjects. Especially at 02:05.

Burn In:

A cooper wire with some soldered ends does not need any burn in. What is it good for? Well, if a dealer had demonstrate or/and sold a cable, for some $3,000.- US plus. And unfortunately, that is not delivering the promised superiority.

What that dealer or sales person can say?

"It will open up and sound way better after a burn in".

Most customers have nothing to say against this argument that have been common and accepted for no particular reason. It is taken for granted. For the sale process, it is done and dusted. Good for the dealer, not so good for the customer. He was satisfied by a fishy story over a good product.

Why playing some music at low volume with those cables, hooked up 24/7 for a week, would do the job better, than giving it a jump start to a car or a truck and get the same amount of current flow in less than a minute?

Cryo: https://ptable.com/

Why would element 29 (Cu) change conductivity properties, over othre metals in this table? Did anyone tested a cable befor and after to say what changed regarding conductivity? For all those says (skin effect and others) to get some nderstanding won’t hurt. None been explained nor proved by an experiment.

I’m happy we don’t live in times of the Maya empire. That could have end with a human sacrify! on the subject...

Mr.  grannyring
For the  3x0 AWG  suggestion: My suggestion was for 3 AWG at 8'.
You require 20'. That increases the cable resistance by 3 and if you go to the guage table it calls for a 3 times 0 AWG to keep it the same as a 3 AWG of 8' long.
That's Ohms law. I only use it for this suggestion.

Regaring Mr. Dill's remark of what he can hear, no one's ears can replace measurment instrumentations nor engineering calculation. Whatever you like it or not, Audio precision, HP and more are still in business.
If ears would do, we would not need them. What you can hear?
As you had tried in a blind test listening to all cables from 14 AWG to the 4x0 AWG and your ears pointed towerd a 12 AWG 99.9% pure cooper with cryo and burn in...?
Now you can hire this service, as the standard listening to IEEE.

Mr. stereofro10
I'm sorry for you that after my effort to pass you an insight, you got it all wrong.
I see that the say: "It is hard to teach an old dog a new tricks", is true!

I would like to make myself clear about the speaker cables:

Speaker cables were never tackled by the audio industry properly. They've been over looked or got a magic approach, rather an engineering approach. Bad for all of us.

The roll of speaker cables is to connect the amplifier and the speakers. But not only. It is also to extend the DF of the amplifier. The higher is the DF the better. However, the speaker cables needs to be also better (lower impedance). There is a relation between the two. This relation can be calculated, as per the cable's length and their gauge.

Any approach that goes with an empiric "try and error" is mostly of people who do not understand the technical side of this subject. Others have a business oriented interest to keep the crowd in the dark and feed it with confusion. The less the customers know or understand, the better it is for their business. They can tell fairy tales and sale their products well. Some audiophiles are so deep and badly embedded in that crap, that it will take a brain surgery to get rid of that.

For those who think that those wire tales of gauge vs. length on the web are helpful, or that they can keep the "try and error" approach, with no particular formula to get closer or zoom in toward a desire result, rather than try to understand and use some science and sense - this conversation was not for them.

For those who may accept that there is a physical (electrical) relation and it can be calculated and implemented, it may be a significant way to improve their sound. Unfortunately, most speaker cables are of 14-12 AWG and with some length from 8' to 24'. For the length, by increase the length from 8' to 16', in order to keep the same resistance of a cable, the cable's cross-section needs to double. For 24' length it needs to triple and so on.

The electronic point of view, of looking at the electrical current loop of an amplifier, speaker and cables, the speaker cables are an extension of the amplifier. Actually it is an extension of its DF or output resistor. When using that for the analysis, the speaker has almost no significance, as what its impedance is. It has significance for the amplifier, as of what power it needs to drive: low impedance and low efficiency requires more powerful amplification. Those usually come with higher (and better) DF. That calls for a thicker and lower resistance speaker cable. For most, at a time they are ready to accept the extra expanse on amplification, the speaker cables are way over looked. It is a sad decision as the optimal performance of that system is now limited and held back by the poor speaker cable.

People that were using 12-14 gauges, 12' long cables, when replacing it with the right cable as for their equipment (0 gauge and just 8' long for DF=500) the sound had improved significantly. This particular example reflects an improvement of x25. It is a tremendous sonic difference.

Sometimes, you hear that say, that at a certain level ($) of a sound equipment, you need to double the budget to get as much as 10% improvement. This is a classic case of a better amplifier with even better DF, without taking in consideration the speaker cables. Now it all the sudden has a mathematical explanation, to support the say.

 

Mr. kosst_amojan

There is nothing in your observation to disapprove nor approve anything. 

I'll use Confucius say:

The one who asks a question, may look fool for a few minutes. The one who don't, will remain fool for the rest of his lives.

Mr. stevecham
I would not recomand of a "1 inch square (cross sectioned), or other rectangular profile, six nines, pure copper bars". It is not flexible at all. What is your guide to end up with that kind of wire? What amp, speaker and distance?
Getting a thicker than 12-14 AWG connected to the amp and peaker, requires a short wire that would fit into a banana plug.
Ther are such, that can use up to an 8 AWG wire (better than 12-14 AWG).
Such ending, can be done for up to 4xo AWG (214 mm2 = 0.33170066340133 sq in). Thats a lot!

Mr. fedie
Your  Vtl 250 mono blocks have a DF of 9.3! (8 ohms / 0.86).
https://www.stereophile.com/content/vtl-225w-deluxe-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
At 4' you may use almost any wire. it won't make any difference.

Mr.  chayro
How old are you?
Cables calculate? If they could also cook we could merry them.

Mr. stevecham
Thanks for reading, but I'm concerned the way you do it...
I wrote that " The electronic point of view, of looking at the electrical current loop of an amplifier, speaker and cables, the speaker cables are an extension of the amplifier ".
Let's say you have an Amp. with a DF of 500. What it means, is that the Amp.'s output resistance is 8 ohms / 500 = 0.016 ohms.
If you add your 8' 12 AWG copper wire, it is equivalent to: 0.0256 ohms.
(it is by the AWG table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
- using the feet raw, and do 16' as it is 8' for the red, 8' for the black = 8' *2=16' we end up with this 0.0256 ohms. Your cable have a 1.6 times higher resistance than what your amplifier's DF has. This is like degrading your amplifier's spec. to a DF of only 205. The other 300 were desmissed to a time the speaker cables get better.
You call it  INSIGNIFICANT! (?)
If you would have a tube amp. like the Vtl 250 mono blocks, with an output resistance of 0.86 ohms, you would be right. But with a DF higher than 100, your cable are no Transparent Cables, as Mr. chayro, try to claim. They are far from being perfect. They are most likely holding back your system's performance, by 60% or more.
If you have spent $10k on your system, try to go ack to the genius who sold you this speaker cable, and try to get a refund of $6k, as that kind of money was spent for nothing.
As long as you come up with says that do not rely on some calculations, but only on some bold assumptions based mainly on "Nothing", you can not keep up in this conversation.   

Mr. maplegrovemusic
Thanks. They do not get specific, of what that resistance is or what is the cable length. 
However, digital amplification (D class) have a different nature of it's output model (electronics) than A/B Class amplifiers, that are most common. 
Tube amplification is also very different, mostly have high output resistance (relatively to A/B class) or low DF.
Athe calcualtion also do not apply to non coil speakers (as ribbon or electrostatic).

Mr. stevecham

The speaker's 8 ohms is not a part of this calculation.

Your first par. adds the speaker impedance with the cable resistance (like adding bananas with apples!). The concept is wrong.
The speaker's cables resistance is not part of the load (speakers). They are an extension of the amplifier, just as I claimed before.

Your second par. is also wrong! DF is always related to 8 ohms (@1kHz), even if the actual speaker to connected is other (4 ohms or higher than 8 ohms). It is a fix number = 8.

In overall, your way doesn't fit the actual relations, nor explain what different cables sound different. As if you would be right, all cables would sound the same.

Mr. keppertup

Silver has a better conductivity than cooper by 9%. It's cost 94 times more. There is no way you can get a silver wire for $7/feet. Silver's melting point is close to the cooper (about 1,000 deg. C). very hard to work with.

Not the elements inside or other do the difference but the overall resistance.
That could be achieved in other ways too, without using exotic materials.
For the distance, I use two different cables (red and black) that are never in parallel.
All your say is not in line, as I excused non coil speakers from this conversation, and yours are ribbons. (Magnepan MG IIIa’s).

Mr. kosst_amojan
Sorry that all your money could't buy you some knowladge.

Skin effect:

What about the wires inside the speaker boxes or inside the amplifier? They are in that loop of speaker's cables. 

·         Speaker manufacturer provide FR (Frequency Response) data that was measured in test.

·         Amplifier manufacturer provide FR data that was measured in test as well as calculated.

·         The above data is often reviewed and proved by magazines and web sites. They are true.

None takes measurements to tangles the skin effect issue. Speaker cable manufacturer's that never provides any piece of technical data, all the sudden do pay special attention to the skin effect. Why?

The other part is that what the FR of skin effect is telling us, that a 0 awg cable that has a 150A current capacity, is good up to 250Hz@150A. this cable can still pass way more current at 20kHz than a thin cable. A cable of 19 AWG van pass 21kHz @ 1.8A. A 0 awg can do that too!

You say: "Cables are VERY low impedance in the audio spectrum; certainly lower than the output impedance of the vast majority of amps out there". Absolutly incorrect. Most power amplifiers out there are class A/B and have DF of 200 and above. 

Most speaker cables are 12-14 AWG and are 8'-24' long. Your say  VERY low impedance shall get figures. you will find out that the figures are no more that low vs. the output resistance of amplifers, when using 8 ohms / DF.

Ohms law is saying that too, as any relation between U (voltage), I (current) and R (resistance). U= I x R
This can be also R = U / I or I = U / R. The power P = I x U in AC also x2.
What about the resistance (R) of a cable, if you need to keep it the same, but also to extend that cable from 8' to 20'?
To keep the voltage drop on a resistor (the speaker cable), if you make it longer, you need to increase its cross section to keep it the same R.
this is exactly what 3 AWG at 8’ would become 3x0 AWG at 20'.
Go to the AWG table and do your calc.

Your "Smart" quote from Google is showing how little you understand this subject. Way less than you need for an argue with it.

Mr. kosst_amojan
Speaker cables are not supose to have any inductive or capacitance values. It is a cooper wire. You wrote: " 16g conductors in a round braid" By putting them into paired parallel lines, twisted 6 fabric insulated 16g conductors, get them some small values of impedance. My cables are two separate cables, so no inductance or capacitance are involved.
You are telling a tell of a wire you made, but how you ended up with that particular value of cable resistance, to fit your system!
Was it a divin revelation in your dream, that instructed you to build those cables, as the rest of the arc?
You call me a liar, at a time you can not tell the diference between an interconnect and a speaker cable.
A power amp. input resistance is usually 10kOhms, and it is pasive resustance. The speaker is 4-8ohms, a complex coil loaded impedance.
Interconnects have a shield to ground and a capacitance developed between the two. Good speaker cables, unless you twist them, have none. An interconnect need to pass milliamps, a speaker cables pass 1000 to 10,000 more current.
Giving a jumpstart with good 4-0 AWG speaker cables would do. Doing that with an interconnect cable...?
Well they are not the same, and bever were.
I’m not a liar, but you do not understand a thing in electronics or audio. 
Calling me that again, will end up with a comlpain and no more answers!

Mr. keppertup
Siver has a 9% better conductivity than cooper. It should cost 94 times more. A 16 AWG silver wire would have a very similar resistance to a 16 AWG cooper wire. For the price of the silver ( $2.87 per foot ) you should buy it by the mile and sel by the ounce. 
Your Hegel H200 integrate amp has a Df of 1,000. Very good.
http://www.hegel.com/images/discontinued/H200manualenglish.pdf
That would call (by calculation) to a 2x 0 AWG cable @ 8' long.
How long is your cable?
You might have $9,500.- value of speaker cables that were all purchased without any serious guidance, to become obsolete inventory.
What you need is a set of 2 x 0 AWG, if 8' long, that should cost you less than $2,500.-

Have not found the Spec of DF on the ML, but did on the 23.5: >600.
The ribbon ( Magnepan) is still a hard cookie to drive (4 ohms with 86dB/w/SPL sensetivity).
If that would be a coil loaded speaker, it would be a 2 x 0 AWG for 12 ft.
As it is a ribbon, it migh be less (0 AWG would do).

Mr. partroysound
I'll quit this game, till the OP's end. It is getting a bit weird. 

Mr.  keppertup
Good Luck. How exactly do uou have in mind connecting the  0 AWG copper wire for $23 to the amp and speakers?

Mr.  geoffkait
You bett right.
On cryogenics or burn inI answered already.
Directionality: Audio is an AC. That means that every 1/2 wave is flowing in the opposite direction of the other 1/2.
Please be kind to explain, who is changing the cables  directionality so many times a second...?
All home apliance use AC (at yours 60HZ at mine 50Hz). What about them? The electricity STD defines which is the hot line and which is the return. Try to convince them about  directionality. 
It is amazing, what kind of crap sales guys are trying to pull with Audiophiles that have no understanding in electricity, but are deep into spending large on the beloved hobby.

Mr. keppertup
It is not a good idea to solder a o AWG wire.
Try to use a cable shoe and crimp it.
I would not solder my equipment's bindig posts to wires...
use banana plugs.

Mr. geoffkait

Your say about hearing only the 1/2 wave in AC is not supported by anyone. It is absolutely incorrect.
The only way doing that, is by placing a diode on the line. That will eliminate any current the opposite direction.
If that is done, you will really get only 1/2 the wave, 1/2 the voltage and also 1/2 the power. For sound, you will get 50% distortion.

Showing now the FR swipe on a Spectrum Analyzer, would present a whole different thing than without that diode.
Even the speakers motion, is on both directions (pushing out or pulling in) must be done by a signal (Amp. forced) and not like a door with a spring that close automatically. 

Sorry, if you are an Audioquest sales guy. 
As for power cords, please leave it out. We are talking about speaker cables on this chat. 

None of the above, is on the subject, of how to fit (calculate) the right cable for your system. Unfortunately, Audioquest can't tell you that. 

Mr. geoffkait
Please don’t worry about any direction of the AC current. They are both well. No other area in electricity (from consumer to space) ever dealth with such a thing as directivity in condutors. In audio, it did. Not because it is any different nor more important (than medical life supporting equipment), but because that crowd is willing to buy that story and pay for it a lot.
There is no such thing, except in audio. Sales guys who take us as NAIVE as it gets.
By the way, if you drink EVIAN mineral water, you might be one of them...