New Von Schweikert VR SR4 mk11 Cream or Crap ???


It is hard to find a recent review of these speakers.
The few comments I been able to find on the Mk 11 version is that they are either very good or very bad.
All reviews seem to like the bass response, that is a good thing, but what about all the other qualities ?
Like treble, midrange, dynamics, soundstage , etc.

I am really interested in these (I like the way the look )but I have no way to audition them in the southeast corner of Michigan.

So, please anyone that can give an honest opinion of the speakers sonic qualities would be appreciated.

If your comments sound like a winner, I may hop on a plane to hear them somewhere.
128x128ozzy
I just got done moving the speakers around in my room and I find that now the rear speakers full on sounds better. Also, after 300 hours of music playing thru them they are developing a very large soundstage.

I now have my speakers 36" measured from the side of the speakers to the side wall. The back of the speakers are 30" from the back wall, making the front of the speakers about 59" from the back wall.
Do I need to bring these out into the room even more? Should they go closer to the side walls?

After reading Douglas excellent review, he had them placed 40" out into the room and 30" from the side walls.
To place mine at those positions would require big time room and equipment re-arrangement.

But, I would like to place them in the optimun location.
With the weight of these speakers and the outriggers 2" high spikes moving them is a challange.

Please share your placement info.

My room is 18' x 25' with a 8 foot ceiling. I have 8 foot 16" tube traps in the corners.
Spenceroo, the outriggers mounted into the same holes that the spikes go into. They look great !.
My floor (cement) was uneven and all speakers would rock where I placed them. With these outriggers the babies are level and solid. Great product.
I have 302 hours on the speakers. Low volumes they sound great.
I cant wait until I can start turning down the rear speakers, I think with my room, full on is too much.
Does anyone have any pics of the VR-4SR MK2 in Ebony? There aren't very many pics of this finish anywhere. The sample pic looks like they are brown and black striped. If you have any pics, send them to me at [email protected]. Ozzy, do your speakers sound good at lower volumes?
Ozzy,
Did you have to drill holes in the bottom of your speakers for the outriggers?
People, my review of the VR-4 SR MkII speakers is now finished and published on Dagogo.com My conclusion? They are cream.
Ozzy,

After my SRs were fully burned in (after 500 hrs), I started to adjust the rear level tweeters and critique. The rear tweeter settings, depend on your room, equipment/cabling and personal tastes. With all these pre-requisites factored in, I dialed mine in at about 6-7. At that level, I find a good balance. Obviously your mileage may vary due to your own room, equipment/cabling and personal tastes.
Ozzy Cool points. I have my rear tweeter set at about two but am close to the front wall and am firing at glass.
Tvad, Courtvision21@, Audioblazer,
I will continue on with playing music thru them for additional breakin.
Probably at some point , I will turn down the rear speakers. Are you guys using them at full output?

The new spikes provided with the Mk2 version are the cheap screw type not the Audio Points as in the Mk1.
For the speaker Outriggers that I mentioned earlier go to the Soundocity web site.
The metal bar frames screw in just like the spikes did , for the VS you have to ask for 3/8"-16 thread size
Go to this site for a picture.http://www.soundocity.com/Picture_0106.jpg

They extend outside of the speakers. The spikes are adjustable and allow the speakers to be fully stablized. I am using the 2" tall spike and they look really cool.
They come in a Black/chrome or gold brass finish
Ozzy
"I also have purchased the Brass and Granite speaker outriggers". May I knw what is this outriggers and what is it for? tq
Ozzy,

Definitely need to play the VS at least 400-500 hours of solid music playing level and leave the rear tweeters on too. After that full burn in, you can fine tune the rear tweeters to your liking. I love my VR-4 SRs MKI, they are really that good. With proper placement and equipment/cabling you will be rewarded. It does take time, but it is well worth it. I still keep getting a grin on my face everytime I play music thru the SRs...money well spent.

Cheers,
Harvey.
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Gammajo,Tvad,Ozzy62 Thanks for the advise,

I have a large 62" LCD in between the speakers.
I have placed a ASC 1/2 tube trap behind the TV and I have 16" dia 8 feet tall Tube traps in the corners.
I also have 3 room lens ,2 outside the speakers and the third behind my listening position.
The first and second reflections also are treated.

I am using the room also for home theatre with a seperate Amp, Equipment and speakers for that.

Actually, the VS front speakers are 52" from the back wall and with the front port I thought it would be fine at that distance. I can bring them out a few more inches but beyond that with my speaker cables it would mean I would have to move my Pass Labs Amp out into the room. However, I like the Amp where it is, on the side of my TV stand .

When I turn down the VS rear speakers the soundstage seems to lock in better, but the instructions says in order to break the rear speakers in, let them play at full level until all the speakers are broke in.

Wow, you guys are saying 500 hours, thats a long time for break in. But,what the hey.
They do seem to sound more refined now than from day one.

Since I have the speakers almost 10 feet apart I tried sitting that same distance to them. You know the triangle thing.
I find that moving back a few feet more brings the soundstage together more.
Thanks again.
Ozzy It took I'd say at least 500 hours for full break in of my VR4Sr's but from where you are they should be pretty stable, and just get slowly sweeter and better. I have not had much trouble at all with bass even though I am only about 18 inches off the front wall, given the new forward firing port. Von and his son both have said to me that they really attempted to design so that closer front wall placement would be possible. What I do see with close placement (and a TV in between - even covered with blankets) is a challenge in getting the soundstage to really lock in fully. It is a trade off I have to do becuase of being in a multi-use room.
Your room is very close to mine in size. My room is 15.5' x 26' and I have my HSEs 76" into the room measured to the back of the cabinet. They are only about 8 ft. apart, center to center with about 1" of toe in. This seems to give me the best balance between SS width and image density. But if the Sr.s are like other VS offerings I have heard, you probably are only about half way there with break in. It took my original VR4s about about 500-600 hrs before I felt they sounded their best.

Oz
Thanks, I will keep trying different positions.
I might add that I have them about 10 feet apart.
My room is 18' x 25" with an 8 foot ceiling
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In my opinion, you will need to get the speakers much farther from the front wall for the bass to sound right. These are big speakers and they need some space. 27" is hardly enough for even a mini-monitor.

Oz
I now have 240 hours on my VR 4 SR Mk 2.

The manual says to give them at least 300 hours before evaluating the sound quality.

But, so far...

The bass is getting more defined , but the soundstage still could be better.
However, I am still using the full output from rear level mid/tweeter for breakin.
I have been playing around with speaker placement.
I have them placed currently at 27" from the back wall to the back of the speaker cabinet and 38" from the sidewalls to the side of the speaker cabinet.
I do not have them toed in at all.

I also have purchased the Brass and Granite speaker outriggers.
The spike level adjustment is great and they make the Speakers look very cool.
Great product!

Douglas_schroeder thanks. You are both forthcoming and perceptive.

I asked those questions primarily because I felt ambiguous or grandiose statements about company revenues can be and are misleading. if taken superficially, without some measure of depth, the numbers are simply self-effacing and tenuous. Not being a 'public' company, and with no visible ledger for factual determination, numbers such as those hold near no value without being reproved.

Perhaps a zero was misplaced. Perhaps two. My consternation with unsupported allegations such as those, in light of the current stress being felt by both VSA and it's consumer base, don't truly support each other. Nor would they support the need for such wide and sweeping changes as seems the current "online only" retail scheme.

Confidence, unlike profits, is immeasureable. I see more at stake here for VSA than streamlining for efficiency and profit margins.

I, for one, enjoy the product performance VSA engenders to items it offers. Until recently both the quality level and price to performance ratio have been a true winner in several spots across the line ups array. Recent escalation of product pricing and de-escalation of tangible consumer services seem at odds. Add to that the removal of hands or ears on access to the buying public and the resultant mix is a very bold move if production capacity is stilll true to form and one which is less inspirational in total.

I truly wish VSA a very long and prosperous turn around as albert is surely a resource for true genius and implementation of design architecture in loudspeaker evolution. Add to that the very nature of competition which promotes for the buyer a better set of choices and it would be a very sad day to see such a star extinguished by it’s own hand or some other perceptual lack.
Blindjim, those are intriguing questions. I don't feel I have a right to probe the company regarding issues unrelated to the review component. I think that the manufacturer would consider it a violation of the tacit agreement to focus on the product. A manufacturer may make a comment on their operations, but that is not necessarily an invitation to scrutinize their operations. As regards the publication of the review, there are so many variables in the process that it becomes impossible to give an accurate date. I'm certain it will be longer than a few weeks.

Douglas_schroeder Thanks so very much.

Any ball park time frame for it?

If you could think to obtain some clarity as to the income sources, ie., patents, sales, consultant fees, etc. THAT would be very enlightening. Contrasting those given figures to other 'leading' loudspeaker manufacturers, even more so.
I think Albert shares the frustrations expressed here. I don't have insight at this point into all the dynamics behind the scenes at the company. Albert himself mentioned the $100m figure.
My review is not scheduled yet, but will appear on Dagogo.com
So back to the beginning question 91 posts ago. The product is cream, the service is currently crap:)
Hi Douglas_schroeder Thanks for the insights.

Understandably then, it would naturally follow to ask, "Who is in charge of the public relationns and customer service, and what are their plans to improve it?" Wouldn't it be appropriate to assume, if higher Fi is contracing the sales rights for the product (s), albert is left solely to the creative facet, then is there still another hand in the pot? one being contracted to handle strickly support? the latter makes no sense.... but if it is not the Creator or 'dealer' who then would or should that fall to?

...fitting in the 'when' along with that previously posed, 'where' inquiry, would also be most welcome news. Regarding our viewing of your report, of course.

Being satisfied with the current "hit & miss" approach with customer service relations, is like cutting one's nose off to spite one's face. Doubtless any good can come of it as it stands. Moreover, it is quite the myopic begining of a turn over, or 'turn around' to either increased revenues or higher levels of efficiency.

Lastly, that $100M figure... where'd that come from? I'm hard pressed to accept a company which can generate a per anum, hundred million U.S. dollars does not have the fiscal wherewithall to provide for adequate consumer services prior to, during, or after some change of business philosophy.

Wholesale changes for retail benefit. Someone overlooked amending 'infrastructure' apparently. it smacks of a less than well thought out plan that can prove quite a bumpy transition. perhaps for everyone, but certainly for the consumer.
Tvad, Blibdjim, Thank you for the help.
Douglas, Thanks also for the info.
The thing I dont understand is , If they get so many calls a minute, why don't they answer the phone? Do they just count the rings?
Anyway, dont shoot the messanger, so sorry.
If Albert is still finanically involved he should still be highly concerned.
You still cant seperate the Company from the Customer Service.
Douglas Thanks for sharing your perspective on what is going on at VS. I am eager to see the review. Do you kno where and when will it appear?
...or perhaps an "easy out" tap bit might remove the grommet and another, a wee bit larger can then be inserted as a replacement. I've used the "easy-out" to remove busted bolts and screws where you couldn't lock onto them with anything like pliers or vise grips.

Finding out if the outside of the insert is threaded or not, and how they are first set into the module will be helpful I'm sure.
I would like to put in a word of clarification about Albert. I am currently reviewing the VR SR4 MkII. I have tried to contain my comments only to technical helps so as not to cause any issue of non-disclosure. I have made no comments on my personal feelings about the speakers.

I spoke with Albert today about the review and while I had him on the phone told him of the difficulties audiophiles are having with customer relations. Albert is no longer in control of those aspects of the company. He is now acting as the design guru and no longer controls the company's tech personel who would address phone system problems, etc. They only became aware of this issue about 1 week ago, but even as a reviewer I have had difficulties getting through. It is NOT for lack of concern on Albert's part. It seems as though the company is going through some growing pains.
I have no interest in debating on the issue of the quality of Von Schweikert customer relations or support; I'm merely relaying Albert's clarification that he's not ignoring customers! He said that they receive 2-3 calls per minute now. When he had a smaller shop he'd take calls personally at a rate of 2-3 per day; since the infusion of investment capital to pump it up to a $100m company he's now in an entirely different capacity with the company he started. He is spending his time on design, not operations. So, people should not call expecting that Albert will be available to consult them. In talking with him, I sensed he laments that he cannot do that anymore. He seems to get a real joy in answering questions and solving problems in audio. I hope this helps shed some light on the issue.
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If it is the same as the jr, the spike thread is an M8. I looked for a while for something more substantial (read: less pot metal) to no avail. If I was more ambitious, I would probably just replace the threaded inserts with a size that would accept a higher quality spike.
Ozzy

The nomenclature of the thread size is at the website... or was... the funny part of it is Albert says you can go to the hardware store to get any or all of the fasteners, screws etc. Then I happend upon the thread sizes of the spikes, either in the manual or online at the wegsite, and it's a European 'metric' thread diameter and count per cm. Wonder what hardware store Albert uses?

but oh, yes, larger spikes do help a lot. Mine are twice if not more the mass of stock ones.

BTW on the Big FAT Dots? A Friend of mine uses them too, though he said the 'change' didn't happen till he had five in there. Like an X I guess.
Thanks Mcguire I will order some.

By the way, since I have'nt yet set the speakers up for actual audtion(Maybe this Sunday) looking at the supplied spike floor feet they look very basic.
Has anyone updated the feet to something more substantial?
What size is the thread size of the spiked feet?
Newbee - sorry, you are definitely right that if you are on the personal recieving end of the "erractic" service, it is definitey crappy.

Ozzy,

As an alternative to the spikes between bass module and m/t I highly recommend "Big Fat Black Dots" from Herbie's Audio Lab. I'm using four per speaker on my VR-4jr's with good results, primarily improved imaging and less grunge. http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/bigfat.htm
Steve Herblein (a.k.a. Herbie) is great to deal with. I also use his tube dampers and cd grungebuster (great bang for the buck tweak).
Tvad... now that's funny. Very nice.

I think though, in all seriousness, VSA product performance is not the issue. rather how issues are handled by VSA currently. getting a bigger piece of market shre by providing exceptionally performing and hence wildly popular pieces, has it's responsibilities.

Newbee
Ditto. it is funny to see two prices at the same time. That's a mighty slim way to justify the 'sale' price, and even slimmer way to support the MSRPs value. Funnier still is now, anyone buying and later selling their units will surely use the over inflated MSRP (which no one pays) to support it's worth.

...funny, I don't feel as grungy as Tvad about my speakers. Maybe Tvad DID pay MSRP!
It would be good If Albert Von Schweikert could comment on this thread about its Customer service.

All the product Engineering in the world is usless when you have a problem and there is no Customer Service.
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Gammajo, LOL. Erratic! Perhaps for those not involved, but if you happened to have spent good money and don't get service when you need it then I think you would agree that it's crappy!

I know some of VSA's speakers have a good reputation for performance, but I have been mildly amused by the manner in which VSA has terminated its dealer network, jacked up the prices astronomically, then appointed a network 'dealer' who gives a discount off the new price. I suspect VSA's business model has little to due with long term stability and success based on repeat business with satisfied customers and more to do with high profits.

Just my guess mind you.
Right out of the box, even though I had the speakers face-to-face, out of phase, and covered with bear skins, I could tell they were something special.
Sounds like the service is irratic not crappy. Some people having stellar experiences others recieving poor service. Still needs improvement
I've got about 100 hours on the speakers. So far the speakers sound like the "Cream".
Even though I have them out of phase,face to face with many blankets on top of them, I can tell they are sounding better.
I can hear the bass is going to be quite tuneful and the dynamics and treble sound like they will have the smack and shimmer I so like.
If only the cutomer service wasn't so "Crappy"

Tvad ...I agree. Though I can't help but think Mr. V is aware of the goings on with his service & Q.A. departments. I feel it's a people thing at VSA. A need for 'more' or more 'qualified' is simply evident.

VSA product performance is fine, but as I said and others pointed at as well, there's more to products than performace to cost ratios. Surely some reassessment (s) are needed, or needed to be put in force.
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VS service standard? Took me more than 3 mths to get my replacement woofer drivers. How is that for service? Confidence abt future upgrade? pretty low unless I absolute low the product and I feel that I cant get a better speaker to be liking elsewhere
Joiseyguy
I've had success dealing with VSA, myself. I believe I did say as much... once contact was made. in fact in refference to ozzy's current issue with the threaded gromet in the base of the top module, one of my issues surrounding my JR's was similar. Though, nowhere near as severe as OZZY's issue. Mine was with a 'plinth'. No color matching problems there.

The previous owner may have tried moving them about after spiking them, I can't say for sure, but one of the bass modules self same 'threaded insert' twisted within the plinth enough to de-stablize the speaker itself.

Naturally I called in to obtain a replacement plinth. Simple. Defective material or workmanship most likely. Could happen to any speaker i suppose.

The initial resolution was for me to do a likewise "OZZY" repair by obtaining some materials from the hardware store too... removal and reinsertion with more adhesives.

Sorry, but no. Not gonna become a support tech for VSA, or anyone else for that matter. Not when the problem can be fixed as new by just providing a new OEM part (s). Perhaps it's a minor thing in all... but to me, having been BOTH a service tech and customer support manager previously, I've never attempted to enlist the aid of the owner to fix a mechanical or electrical problem while a unit is under warranty. Ever. It's simply not done. Well, I never did even think of it.

To VSA's good, I was sent a brandy new pair of plinths not long there afterwards, as I had no need for rush service and they didn't have any on hand right then either. soon as they had them, they shipped mine to me.

On other albeit minor items, the 'caps' for the locking nuts came off when I was tightening them by hand. Just popped free of the metal nut to which they were attached without undue pressure, IMO. Two of them. Sure. A minor deal. Still, an irritating affair which does in part point to the use of less than quality pieces being used in the construction... or the lack of a decent QA program.

Past those minor irritants, for quite some time I was having major issues with being able to properly set up the speakers. For about a year or so I called, emailed, and ultimately spoke with albert at length about the problem. he assured me nothing could be 'cross wired' in the upper module. I felt a tweeter was mis firing or out of phase, or something... or I was simply nuts. Albert did try to obtain for me some local service for them but ultimately he was dissatisfied with the level of the local service agency apparently and did not follow up on it with me.

Albert to his credit did tell me he would give me an RA so i could return them for service, but servicing them would likely be at least a month, perhaps more once they recieved them.

To make a long story more monotonous, a couple months ago I could no longer handle the intermittently errant sounding units and obtained an R.A.#.

I fashioned the box to secure both top mods and sent them to VSA for inspection and/or repair (s) a few days later. they got them in the day prior to thanksgiving.

Eventually they found one front tweeter to be bad. were simply going to replace it and send them back. hearing that resolution, I asked they replace it's twin as well so there would be some degree of uniformity with the changes being made. I also said I would pay for the second tweeter as only one was bad. i was told to call back. I did. Several times till I got through. this was mid Decenber.

I got through just before Xmas. they were not yet repaired and had now been there a month. OK. Fine. time was not the issue. Communication was, however.

At some point i was told ALL four tweeters were being replaced. Well, OK! Super. i dreaded the breakingg in period but believing all will be well soon, I had no problem there.

If it seems I'm taking VSA to task, think again. these are jus the main facts. As best I can relate them. Certainly I'm pleased with the outcome, as all is well now and 40% of the drivers have been replaced, according to VSA.

Standard service related follow upQuierries for quality assurance updates usually ask by degrees, just how satisfied are you with the level of the service you recieved?

Very? Somewhat? Not at all? Comnpletely disjointed by thw whole affair?

Right? Well there's the rub. I simply can not in complete honesty say I am 100% satisfied i was provided exemplary service on the whole.

I will also, in an effort to gain any reader of this a proper perspective here, say I am fairly critical of these aspects having been on both sides of this coin myself in past jobs.

I do in fact think VSA is doing it's best currently to accomodate it's buying public on every level. I just propose that their best can and should be better than its current state of affairs.

it's like this... you buy a new whatever... something goes wrong not long after and you call for service... can't get through... and then call repededly. You leave messages which are not replied to. Then finally you get through and their first solution is for you to fix it yourself.

Those are not the words I really ant to hear, personally.

That should NEVER be a 'first response' solution. it should a "last resort". Regardless. it is just not professional nor does it bolster my confidence in that company.

I also get 'it' that we are buying equipement from companies run by builders, designers, engineers, and geniuses in some cases, by and large. not businessmen.

that's as should be. to a point. A true major leaguer will provide more than product. true quality of any product, IMO, lies not in simple performance or grandiose assurances. real quality is the whole of the experience. it's the whole ball of wax for any serious buyer. performance, fit and finish, assurances, support, accessibility and availability. find any 'one' of those facets lacking and it is tainted. Find another, and its' fabric begins to unravel as it is seen for what it is.

it's also a simple matter to remedy. some focus, some money, some comittment, and some time is all that's necessary. I'm optimistic VSA will do the right thing by and for, it's customer base... not just by and for some press.

I hope so. I've not ruled them out for my next speaker upgrade yet... but if you think getting in touch with VSA is a bother... call B&W, and see how far you get. Hoo boy!
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