New Technics vs. old


If you have a vintage Technics turntable in good working order, is it still worth it to purchase  one of the new 1200 models that get such good reviews?
boofer
If you own SP-10 mkIII in a good working order then you don't need any new Technics turntable. I think with SP-10 mkII nobody needs new GR. 

For the price of G or GAE there are so many absolutely amazing vintage Direct Drive turntables and tonearms on the used market. 

It's a matter of taste, personally i don't like the visual part of the new 1200 series, because i've been using an old 1200 series for 20 years. But for people looking for simplicity this is the best choice. 

I prefer vintage Direct Drive turntables and vintage high-end tonearms
I’ve taken several steps up from the barbaric SL-1200mk2, to the ultra-refined SL-1700mk2. It’s not quite what the SP-10mk3 with a nice arm would be, but it’s leaps and bounds ahead of the new pseudo-semi-auto unit or the SL-1200mk7 or G or GAE. 
Dear @boofer : In January 23 of this year you made almost the same question and in that thread you received several answers that gave you almost all what any one could needs to cope perfectly your questions.

Makes no sense to repeat " same " thread today ! ! ? ? ? I think that you have to make your self work and at least try to listen the the new models but after almost 5 months you did not ! !.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Sleepwalker, As far as I can determine, the SL1700mk2 is one version of the old original SL1200, and even the SL1700 dates back to the early 1980s.  I guess it is different from the original SL1200 and most of its descendants in that it offers semi-auto operation.  Same goes for the SL1200mk7, which can still be purchased new, in that it too is in the same family with the old original SL1200 line.  None of those turntables are in the same league with the latest SL1200G, GAE, or GR.  The latter have a much better motor, better chassis', better platter, tonearm, etc., compared to any of the earlier models.

I can't see how the SL1700mk2 and the "barbaric" SL1200mk2 would be qualitatively different from one another, except in terms of extraneous features.  It is indeed unfortunate that Technics chose to preserve the outward physical appearance of the old SL1200 line and to keep using the "SL1200" naming system, when they introduced the G, GAE, and GR, but there's no need to confuse the OP, nevertheless.  Yes, the GAE, GR, and G would be highly recommended. 
Raul: my January question was about specific Technics models, and that question was satisfactorily answered, in my opinion. My recent question is more general as to whether it is worth spending the extra $ on the newer models; ie. are they that much better than the older ones. I benefit greatly from  collective opinions ffrom Audiogon members.
On the advice of some local Visigoths, I replaced the feet and mat on my Technics 1200 MKII.  I also added a fluid damper and upgraded the headshell.  I thought (and still think!) it sounded pretty good.I still have it but upgraded to a Technics 1200G which is much better, as it should be given the price.  The 1200GR is really good too and I thought a bit about buying that and saving some money.I am very happy with my table.  It is an improvement but the 1200MKII with tweaks was nice too.
Lewm, the semi-auto SL-1700mk2 and its manual brother SL-1800mk2 and fully auto sister SL-1600mk2 are Adam’s rib from which the SL-1200mk2 was created. The main difference is that the SL-1200mk2 has virtually zero vibration isolation with its rubber base on relatively nice rubber feet. The SL-1200mk2 doesn’t have the combined TNRC substrate and spring suspension on rubber feet that its more sophisticated cousins have. These three different isolation systems work in combination to dispatch vibration very effectively. The SL-1200mk2 shares the same motor, quartz locked motor drive circuitry and tonearm, but lacks the enhanced cuing and pitch controls outside of the dustcover. The only reason that the SL-1200mk2 has an almost cult-like following is because of hoards of brainwashed rap-“DJ”s that think only a SL-1200mk(x) will work with their serato record scratching toys. For their purposes, the more sophisticated suspension interferes with their need to do what people who want to enjoy and preserve their record collection cringe at. 
DJs have been using Thorens TD-125 mk II belt drive turntables in the late 70’s, here is a picture of the dj booth in Studio 54 (NYC) with Diana Ross on the mic. Same turntables with Infinity Black Widow tonearms and Stanton cartridges were in use at the Paradise Garage club in 1979, but replaced with Technics SL1200 mkII by the early 80’s, here is the picture of updated dj booth, the club was closed in 1987.

The only reason that the SL-1200mk2 has an almost cult-like following is because of hoards of brainwashed rap-“DJ”s that think only a SL-1200mk(x) will work with their serato record scratching toys.

Don’t try brainwash us here with your comments like the one above.

Serato was launched in 2004 by Rane, the majority of the professional DJs never use Serato or anything digital, they play original vinyl only. There are good and bad djs. Every dj shop is full of real vinyl and it sells well today.

DJs have been using Technics SL1200 since the it was made in the 70’s, then every club worldwide was equipped with SL1200 mkII by the 80’s when it became a world standard for professionals for all genres of music and all kind of DJs. We’re talking about nearly 40 years of constant use of SL1200 mkII by professionals everywhere in the world. The reason why Technics SL-1200 mkII was so popular among the djs for decades (and still popular) is because no other turntable can offer such powerfull motor with pitch control fader in a small cabinet with a nice tonearm for professional needs. This is why it was a choice of professionals since the late 70’s !

It has nothing to do with Serato or any other digital BS, for teenagers there are plenty of cheap as chips direct drive turntables available on the market for decades (gemini, stanton, vestax etc, none of them even assemblen in japan).

Technics always was a choice of professionals. And SP-10 mkII was a high-end broadcast turntable since the 70’s. Much cheaper SL1200 series was a djs choice in the clubs and studios. I remember when a brand new SL1210mkII was no more than $450 in the mid 90’s here in the Panasonic shops and i think in the USA retail price was even cheaper at that time.




There is a distinction between real deejays and rap-“DJ”s that just scratch records and fool with faders and pitch controls like they know what they’re doing. The rap-“DJ”s don’t can only use a turntable that has no suspension. That is why in the 80’s when rap came out, the SL-1200mk2 sales took off. Note that the lack of a proper suspension makes the SL-1200mk2 very prone to problems from vibrations, hence it is not a good turntable for audiophile applications. On the other hand, rap-“DJ”s have never been concerned with quality and vibration isolation. 
Isonoe made this long time ago, believe it or not, but it was made for DJs, so an old Technics stock feet is no longer a problem for audiophiles or djs if they need suspended table (it's a matter of choise). Isonoe feet can solve bass feedback problem even if 20 000 Watt stereo sound system is near the stage with a pair of SL1200. 

People you call "rap djs" can't affect the sales of Technics more that some other djs and professionals with completely different musical taste.

P.S. Rapping came out in the late 70's as the rhyme (by MC) over the Disco beats played by DJs. But in Jamaica they been doing it much earlier in a different way over reggae and rocksteady music. Funny, but a guy with a mic was called a "deejay" in Jamaica, a person with records was called a "selector". 

You always refer to some bad taste digital DJs and blame them in everything regarding Technics. I just don't get it.  


The SL-1200mk2 standard feet are pretty good for rubber feet. In fact they’re so good that I’ve retrofitted my SL-1700mk2 turntables with them, as they are better than the stock feet. 

The fundamental flaw with the SL-1200mk2 is it’s relatively non-compliant rubber base. 
Sleepwalker, you mention that one difference between the SL1200 and the SL1700 is that in the latter unit one can access the pitch control with cover down. Do you actually listen to vinyl with the dust cover down? If so, we come from different planets audio-wise. The differences you cite between the old 1200 and the old 1700 pale in comparison to the differences between those two and the new G, GAE, or GR. That’s my point.
DJs have been using Thorens TD-125 mk II belt drive turntables in the late 70’s, here is a picture of the dj booth in Studio 54 (NYC) with Diana Ross on the mic. Same turntables with Infinity Black Widow tonearms and Stanton cartridges were in use at the Paradise Garage club in 1979,
Clubs like 54 didn't do scratching or other manipulation (interference) with the record's normal rotation — so Thorens and other belt-drive was fine. Start the Music, let it play, mix to the next track — the whole idea was a consistent rhythm for the dancers. 

'Turntablism' started with Rap/Hip-Hop in the early-mid '80s. Belt drive couldn't do it, high-torque direct-drive was perfect, thus the 1200 took over. It was more a 'musical instrument' than it was neutral playback device. 

So I think your "brainwashing" comment was a bit OTT

I was DJ in '66 at a NY club called Steve Paul's "The Scene". The two turntables were Bogens, with a simple cross-fade mixer; it's all that was needed.  All records were 7"-singles. Beat-matching was essential for consistent dance energy, and a transition to slower tempo/mood both for body-contact dancing towards the end (a main purpose of the clubs was to hook up for after-hours) and to lower the energy so the floor would clear for the Live acts.

"The Scene" had great dancers, but is more famous for the musicians who played there live. One block off Broadway, chorus line dancers from the Musicals flocked to The Scene as soon as the curtain fell, to do their own creative dancing to James Brown, Wilson Pickett, Motown, after 2 hours doing trite, polite, paid choreography to show tunes. Best dancing I'ever seen. 

But the club's highlight was the Live Acts: The Doors, Cream, Traffic, The Velvets, Steppenwolf, Hendrix, Joplin — just about every major group from the Sixties who had a big gig in New York jammed at The Scene, and sometimes jammed together. Example: the live act for one week (advertised and paid) was the Muddy Waters Blues Band (2 sets every night: 9 and 12). And every night, unpaid and unadvertised, Hendrix came in — he sat in back of the stage, and played lead guitar. Few knew it, because a) Jimi was shy, b) didn't want to upstage Muddy; and c) sat behind the amps and speakers against the rear wall, nearly hidden.

Starting in the early '60s, all the clubs were called "Discos", but changed radically as the culture, music, fashions, drugs (especially "The Pill") changed. And "Disco" as a musical genre only started in the '70s.

I guess it came to an end when 54 became too involved with drugs — but I was long gone by then, my club days/nights were only '66–67...
What is your take on “Echo In The Canyon”? Saw it yesterday. Liked it a lot, can’t say I loved it though. The upcoming Crosby biopic will likely fill in a few missing details, but I feel the scope of artists was too narrow. Entertaining enough though, and made me laugh a few times when misadventures of our Rock heroes and heroines were reminisced. 
@bimasta

Clubs like 54 didn’t do scratching or other manipulation (interference) with the record’s normal rotation — so Thorens and other belt-drive was fine.

Technics replaced all the belt drive turntables in every club and on every radiostation since it was widely available, no matter what kind of music djs have been playing. This technology is simply better, no doubt. Every professional DJs from the 70’s remembering belt drive as a nighmare and i am not talking about hip hop djs, i’m talking about people who just played the music for dancers. Technics DD is/was a choice of professionals for decades since it was introduced to the market. Different models for audiophiles (such as SP-10mkII and mkIII).

’Turntablism’ started with Rap/Hip-Hop in the early-mid ’80s.

No, it became popular (worldwide) in the mid 80’s, but it is all started in the mid-late 70’s and you can watch a lot of documentaries and interviews with people who were the pioneers of this movement. The playlists also available. Nice books with pictures etc. By the min 80’s is was ALREADY a huge worldwide phenomenon, watch Herbie Hancock "Rock it" LIVE from 1984 with DJ Grandmixer DXT with a pair of Technics DD turntables. It is not a starting point. The single released in 1983 and pressed not only in the USA, but also in Europe. The DJs have been doing it in Bronx earlier in the 70’s, but it was underground movement in black comminity, that was the beginning of what later was called "turntablism".

But i want to remind you about Jamaica and their reggae and rocksteady Sound Systems, it was there long time before it even appeared in the USA and turntables were Garrard since the 50’s.

Also i must admit that American 60’s Soul music was much more popular in England because of the legendary  Wigan Casino club started in 1973. And it was all about rare Soul records (black music) and dancing. Actually the strongest soul scene was in England and still is. They call it Northern Soul.


And "Disco" as a musical genre only started in the ’70s. I guess it came to an end when 54 became too involved with drugs — but I was long gone by then, my club days/nights were only ’66–67...

You had very short dj career, lol :)

There was The Loft in NYC opened in feb.1970 by David Mancuso he was an audiohile and DJ in Manhattan who played on Koetsu cartridges and Technics SP10 mkII DD turntable in Mitch Cotter base with FR tonearm, Klipsch speakers (i remember it from his interview). He has never ever mix records like other DJs at that time. Enough said. He was active and tried to recreate The Loft vibe nowadays until he died at the age of 72 in 2016. This is a picture with setup from his last performance.