Here is something that I have not seen covered in this blog. Strings (violins) sound harsh and metallic when playing classical music from my Samsung CD player, or when streaming classical music from my iPhone or MacBook via bluetooth, Airplay or Apple TV to my Yamaha Aventage RX-A2070 AVR. The speakers are SVS Ultra Towers. I had the same experience on Klipsch RP-280F towers. But when I listen to classical music from any public TV broadcast, or from any music and/or video app on my TV (Netflix, Amazon, PBS, Apple Music, Pandora, etc.), THE STRINGS SOUND PERFECTLY SOFT, close to what they sound like in a concert hall! I have the iTunes equalizer settings set to "flat" on my iPhone and MacBook. The Parametric Equalizer on my AVR is set to YPAO:flat. Does anyone know why the harshness exists from some sources and not from others? I am stumped!
New system has fatiguing, harsh high frequency sounds. How to fix?
I just purchased my first audio and home theater system (other than a bluetooth speaker or computer speaker system). I use it for listening to music as well as watching movies. It is a tremendous upgrade and I’m enjoying it. It has clarity and detail that I have never heard before. However, I notice a harshness in the high frequency sounds when listening to music.
I would like my treble to be smooth, sweet, soft, silky and gentle. Right now it is the opposite of that. It is annoying, screechy, metallic and harsh.
I am seeking a solution to that issue. From the little I have been able to find on this subject, it seems that room acoustics might be a big part of my solution. Is that true? If not, what is my next step? An equalizer? I can’t see many options for big changes in speaker placement. At most I can move them a few inches or change the angles.
My listening room is about 11.5 feet by 11.5 feet and square except for the doorway in the back corner which protrudes into the room 18 inches x 44 inches. In the room are a bookcase, couch, end table, media center stand (holding TV, center speaker, receiver, disc player and Roku), computer & computer monitor, my speakers (and rear speaker stands), a ceiling fan and that’s about it... I’m describing the room on the assumption that the room (or its contents) are relevant to the treble problem I’m describing. (However, throwing some thick blankets over my TV and computer monitor, as a test, did not change the issue.)
Here are my home theater components:
Speakers:
The front speakers are on either side of the LG TV on the front wall (and near the room corners. The front speakers are angled in. Minimum distance to wall is 10", but measuring straight/parallel from back of speaker to wall is at least 18". From side of speaker to wall is at least a foot (one side of room has 30 inches). There is only 3" between each RTi A5 and RTi A7 speaker.
The rear speakers are behind the couch at each corner and against the back wall.
One subwoofer is in the back corner. The other is midway on the other wall and angled toward listening area.
For music, I usually prefer listening in 2-channel stereo. The dual pairs of front speakers are awesome. (I initially started out with a 7.1 layout but I prefer this layout now.) The high frequency problem exists even in 2-channel stereo. It also exists if I use only 1 pair of front speakers.
Wiring
All speakers are bi-wired, except the center (and subwoofers), which don’t support it. (Not bi-amp’d, just bi-wired*.)
Speaker wire: Mediabridge 12AWG 4-Conductor Speaker Wire (100 Feet, White) - 99.9% Oxygen Free Copper - ETL Listed & CL2 Rated for In-Wall Use
* https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/
Banana Plugs:
I would like my treble to be smooth, sweet, soft, silky and gentle. Right now it is the opposite of that. It is annoying, screechy, metallic and harsh.
I am seeking a solution to that issue. From the little I have been able to find on this subject, it seems that room acoustics might be a big part of my solution. Is that true? If not, what is my next step? An equalizer? I can’t see many options for big changes in speaker placement. At most I can move them a few inches or change the angles.
My listening room is about 11.5 feet by 11.5 feet and square except for the doorway in the back corner which protrudes into the room 18 inches x 44 inches. In the room are a bookcase, couch, end table, media center stand (holding TV, center speaker, receiver, disc player and Roku), computer & computer monitor, my speakers (and rear speaker stands), a ceiling fan and that’s about it... I’m describing the room on the assumption that the room (or its contents) are relevant to the treble problem I’m describing. (However, throwing some thick blankets over my TV and computer monitor, as a test, did not change the issue.)
Here are my home theater components:
- Computer monitor: WASABI MANGO UHD400 40" 3840X2160
- TV: LG OLED65C7P 65"
- Receiver: Sony STRDN1080
- Disc Player: LG UP875 4K BLU-RAY PLAYER BestBuy SKU 5979504
- Streaming Box: Roku Ultra streaming player (model 4660)
Speakers:
- Front 1: Polk Audio RTi A7 floorstanding speakers
- Front 2: Polk Audio RTi A5 floorstanding speakers
- Center Speaker: Klipsch RP-250C Center Channel Speaker
- Subwoofer 1: Polk Audio PSW125 Subwoofer
- Subwoofer 2: Klipsch R-112SW Subwoofer
- Rear/Surround: Polk Audio RTI A3
The front speakers are on either side of the LG TV on the front wall (and near the room corners. The front speakers are angled in. Minimum distance to wall is 10", but measuring straight/parallel from back of speaker to wall is at least 18". From side of speaker to wall is at least a foot (one side of room has 30 inches). There is only 3" between each RTi A5 and RTi A7 speaker.
The rear speakers are behind the couch at each corner and against the back wall.
One subwoofer is in the back corner. The other is midway on the other wall and angled toward listening area.
For music, I usually prefer listening in 2-channel stereo. The dual pairs of front speakers are awesome. (I initially started out with a 7.1 layout but I prefer this layout now.) The high frequency problem exists even in 2-channel stereo. It also exists if I use only 1 pair of front speakers.
Wiring
All speakers are bi-wired, except the center (and subwoofers), which don’t support it. (Not bi-amp’d, just bi-wired*.)
Speaker wire: Mediabridge 12AWG 4-Conductor Speaker Wire (100 Feet, White) - 99.9% Oxygen Free Copper - ETL Listed & CL2 Rated for In-Wall Use
* https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/
Banana Plugs:
- Mediabridge Banana Plugs - Corrosion-Resistant 24K Gold-Plated Connectors - 12 Pair/24 Banana Plugs (Part# SPC-BP2-12 )
- Sewell Silverback , 24k Gold Dual Screw Lock Speaker Connector
- Ocelot Banana Plugs, 24k Gold Plated Connectors, Open Screw Type
121 responses Add your response
First response is my guess too. Got rid of a new Sony receiver (put on CL for free pick up. Gone the next morning.lol.) for that exact same reason. Bought an older Denon model 3803. On the other side is Yamaha rxv777 which is clear has more sparkle, a tad forward sounding and is pretty much the opposite of Denon warm, smooth and slightly laid back sound. The good news is some if the older totl receivers are a MUCH better value than any offerings today. Such as Denon 5800 or Yamaha zx series. Good luck |
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I recently experienced the same sibilance problem on video dialogue when I swapped a new Sony STR-DN1080 into my existing system. The receiver was the only change I made, so that isolated the problem. I spoke with Sony technical support and they concluded it's a defective receiver. So I'm going to return or exchange it. If anyone is stuck with one of these units, I found I could tame the sibilance to almost tolerable levels by setting the calibration profile to Front Focus, setting the Equalizer treble to -10db on front and center speakers, switching the Sound Field to A.F.D., and turning off the Sound Optimizer and Pure Direct. BTW on the same Sony STR-DN1080 receiver, I got perfect non-sibilant vocals on music when I streamed Tidal over Chromecast, and it also gave me jaw-dropping audio quality overall on music. So the sibilance problem seems to be specific to video sources. |
In the end I gave my surround system to charity, as my music system was just so much better. The av system was not helped by the fact that films seem to put about 80% of their sound through the center speaker. It was mostly mono with a few effects and ambience. I got round this by taking out the centre speaker and reconfiguring, but in the end I just got fed up with it and used my stereo system for everything. |
It sounds to me that your speakers are just showing up the problems with your source and amp. You could try another at amp that is better for music together with a dedicated CD or streamer for music. While it could be the speakers that are the problem I think that changing the above will help the most. For me the best option would be to have a dedicated system for music. |
I thought it was spelled "micro arching" but I stand corrected…otherwise it could be a small scale podiatry problem. I agree that the goo promotion was surprising with an aura of desperation. Did sales slow down somehow? I have dimmers all over my house and because I have excellently shielded cables (no biggie) and a few great anti-hum power supplies (my phono preamp, my DAC, and my amplifiers all have DC swatting gizmos, along with an old but working power conditioner for everything) my rig is amazingly humless and clean as a whistle. |
If noise is heard in tweeter with nothing playing try playing with how the wires are routed. Try to keep power and digital wires in particular as far away from line level analog wires as possible and listen for a difference in noise heard with with goal of keeping it minimal. Avoid wires running parallel and in close proximity to each other for long distances. Keeping noise to a minimum helps take the edge of the sound otherwise. Using shielded cables can also help if noise picked up by wires turns out to be an issue in this case. Toe in and equalization may certainly help but minimizing noise if it exists is always a good thing. Other sources of noise worth isolating from are power transformers in the gear or in nearby household devices in close proximity to wires, flourescent lights, dimmers, nearby computers etc. |
If the op wants to smear $300 goo to make his $500 receiver sound better because the vendor recommends it thats his perogative. I’d ask for a money back guarantee first though at least if I were him. Funny how the world has managed to avoid such issues to date without breaking out the new fandangled $300 audiophile goo. Just let us all know how that turns out. |
What source devices do you hear it with? With power on switched to that device and nothing playing, with ear to tweeter do you hear any noise or is it dead quiet? I read in one review that sound quality with that Sony A/V receiver is not as "full" as prior model and "less forgiving of brighter speakers" which could be part of the problem. I'd check to see if any audible noise is a factor first, eliminate that potential issue with any setup or not and go from there. |
@perfectpathtech A large part of the problem is micro arcing, I have released a new product which you can read about in Member reviews under The new tweak. Problem solved! What is the link to the reviews? Also, my system sounds pretty good now after implementing the changes recommended in earlier comments. Thanks |
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I have everything plugged in to an APC Back-UPS Pro 1500 VA (model BR1500G). Does that help? Are you suggesting something like the Furman M-8x2 Power Conditioner? If not, which model? What does that do that my APC Back-UPS Pro 1500 VA doesn’t do? The APC has "Automatic Voltage Regulation" and it "corrects low and high voltage conditions". I also know that some APC UPS’s have this feature:
I just sent a question to APC to ask if my UPS has EMI/RFI filtering. |
From the C-Net review of the Sony STR-DN1080: When you put all those DACs and decoders plus a multi-channel amplifier on a single chassis and aim for a $500-ish retail price, you're just asking for higher noise and vibration levels, crosstalk, compromised compact power supplies that can't deliver current when you need it, etc. These are all factors that can compress the dynamics and weaken the bass, making for a brighter-sounding tonal balance. |
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@psickerson RE: "Try Roon..." Thanks again for that suggestion. I went back and learned a little more about Roon and I also came across HQPlayer by Signalyst. https://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html I'm going to investigate this direction. This looks like where I need to go next. It turns out that "Roon supports Native DSD output on Linux." It's just the Core that doesn't run on Linux, but "two packages are available for Linux: Roon Bridge and Roon Server." HQPlayer by Signalyst also supports Linux. I envision that I will use either HQPlayer or Roon, and I'm leaning toward trying HQPlayer first. I'll start a new thread under "PC Audio" to ask a question about getting started. I also need to pick hardware that would work with either Roon or HQPlayer. The HQPlayer page has this helpful hardware list that will be a starting point. Recommended hardware:
Of those, the Teac NT-503 looks most interesting to me (so far). I like that it has XLR balanced outputs which I can connect directly to my Yamaha P5000S amp. Which Audiogon forum would be best for asking about these hardware choices (DAC, NAA, etc.)? I'll start a new thread in the appropriate place. Thanks again to everyone for all the interesting feedback! |
@kosst Since you seem to like taking to people who know better than you to task,Not much I can say to someone who has judged a person's abilities or knowledge without even knowing him. If he does that with people, Imagine the judgement he will put forth about hifi equipment he knows nothing about. You talk good theory. But I doubt your experience base. Do you really think that you have more knowledge and experience than the many thousands or millions of people who know the theory and have been an audiophile for 30-40- 50 yrs and prefer tubes because they think they sound better? Really? |
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Unless the amplifier has a sleep mode (many modern ones do, if only because some countries now mandate them), typical idle consumption of an AB amp is some 50-150 watt. Take 100 watt for a calculation: leave it on all day that is 2400 watt per day, or 875 kilowatt per annum. That is about 13% of the annual electricity consumption (much of it own produced by our solar panels) in our large family home with fridges, dishwasher, washing machine, dryer, electric oven, several computers etc. At Dutch electricity prices 875 KW costs about $200 if bought from a utility. So in my mind electricity consumption is worth considering, both financially and environmentally. Therefore, in my view leaving any amplifier on all day is unwise, and similarly I believe Class A and tubes are about to become extinct species because of their high energy consumption. Misery sleep modes will become far more common soon, and after that Class D will replace Class AB (it already has in many mass market units). |
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Sir, When stressed and in a panic mode, the first thing to do is take a deep breath and relax. Start with the simplest fixes and the least expensive. If these don't work then escalate your efforts. There are so many well-meaning people -- all with their own ideas, but taking it all in can only cause confusion unless you take charge. Look through the lists of possibilities and then do your homework on each of these changes. Again, you will get many opinions, but you know what you are after . . . and you can decide what is best for you. Remember, experts have their own biases and their own set of ears. Only you can tell if a fix is doing what you expect it to, so don't be mislead into great expense and frustration . . . and thereby give-up or put yourself into higher debt by those who have no stake in your music appreciation, your goals, or your financial situation. As you build upon one change and see what that does, you can decide if you wish to pursue further changes. Best to you. |
@willemj Its obvious that you dislike tubes. That's fine. Just as obvious is your lack of experience and knowledge of them. The blanket statements below are wrong. Lets put them to rest The disadvantages of tubes are clear:Not to tube users. Many have traded multi thousand dollar amps, preamps, etc for cheaper tube amps which sounded better 1 high energy consumption (think of the environment)Really. Many if not most SS amps are left on continuously. Not the case with tubes. If you are that concerned with the environment you shouldn't have music and video systems which use energy anyway. read a book by candlelight. That's easier on the environment. 2 often very speaker load dependent frequency response (i.e. tube sound where an amplifier should not have a sound of its own.. What are you talking about....speaker efficiency? Everything has effect on the sound. I can change the sound of the music just by changing the roller ball material in my roller block footers. Wood is warmer than steel. My wife could hear the difference. bet you could too. 3 often pretty bad measured test results.The worst piece of equipment I ever had, also had the best specs. Your ears are the best measurement 4 Often quite low outputWhats wrong with low output? My Silverline speakers were exhibited with a 7 watt SET amp by the mfg. My amp is 35wpc. I would be glad to have you hear it. AAMOF the best sounding systems I've had were a 45wpc Harmon Kardon and this 35wpc Dynaco. The worst was 200wpc and 250wpc. You need to check into lower watt amps with 90-93db efficienct speakers. 5 expensiveMy Latino ST-70 was $1100. it replaced a $4k SS amp. There are many good tube amps for $1500 or under. I bought mine just to check into tubes. It was a keeper and the $4k SS amp was sold. BTW That amp has many great reviews. Its all about synergy. 6 hassleOK, you got me there. I do have to get up and turn the amp on whereas the SS amp was already on. I've had to replace a rectifier tube and a fuse in the 8 yrs I've had it |
The OP has already sorted the harshness of his HT system. As for the idea to go for tube amplification, I think that is unwise. Many tube amplifiers do indeed have a warm top end, but that is quite simply because their frequency response is not flat. In short, they function as a very expensive and non-adjustable equalizer. As fh says, one can achieve the same with tone controls or an equalizer. |
@lowoverdrive. I kinda figured you knew an Mp3 from Flac, wav, etc since you are running linux. I'd guess your problem is the HT receiver. They usually put all their marbles in the pursuit of video which calls mostly for a narrow range of midrange with powered Subs doing the explosions. I know Outlaw used to make a music friendly HT receiver. But its been a long time since I've heard anything about them You may do something like take the $1k you were willing to spend on acoustic treatments and spend it on a Tube integrated amp instead. Here's an example. Not necessarily my 1st choice. Just an example. There are also some small one man companies which are producing very good tube products for a small price Also keep your eyes open for PrimaLuna integrated which often come up for sale on the used market. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jolida-Fusion-1102-Integrated-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-Silver-/122608274219?_t... |
@lowoverdrive The one thing I have not seen addressed is what type media you are using? If you are streaming, what are you streaming? Mp3,? Flac? other lossless ? If you are streaming Mp3, there is much of your trouble. I only ask because I have been surprised at how many people know very little about bitrate and its influence on music. |
It's good you're going to separate your systems. If u just have to have a receiver, find one that has MOSFET transistors, instead of IC chips. Your sound will be much fuller and not as tinny sounding. There were many good suggestions about the room, contents and treatments. Glass is not conducive to good sound. It WILL take hours, for a new system to start sounding its best. Have a friend help set up your speakers. Inches and quarter of inches makes a huge difference. Try raising your speakers up a bit. Try one thing at a time, then add the things that worked together. Avoid square rooms. You can start with one, then do things to make the room rectangular. Concentrate on a mosfet amp. You'll be amazed at the difference. |
psickerson RE: "Roon - since you never heard of it, how can you make assertions about the configuration requirements. " I simply quoted from their website. Core doesn't run on Linux according to their own site. Do you know otherwise? willemj - I have a couple mics I could try with my Samsung Galaxy S8. For example a Sennheiser e835. I also have a Rode NTG4 and a couple others. I haven't tried connecting directly to phone yet, but would expect I can make it work. |
The snag with smartphone apps is that they use the phone's microphone. In the case of the Iphone that is not such a problem because there are few models and therefore they can be calibrated for. In the case of Android, the variety is enormous. The best way to measure is to use the free REW software with the UMIK-1 usb microphone ($85 from PartsExpress). Unfortunately there is a learning curve, but fortunately YouTube is full of instructional videos. Since you use Linux you are unlikely to be very bad with software. |
