IMHO new Cremona M will be at least little bit better then old one.
Regarding "Hot" treble character-you can listen to then with grill-on(in fact I listen to my Anniversario's with grill-on) as a option. I can tell you one thing highs are also very open on Anniversario's as well. I audition Elipsa and found it pretty good but, I do not like the way those elliptic cabinets(Stradivari as well) develope soundstage...
Your Linn amp can really be little bit too cold or analytic for any new Sonus Faber speaker(Cremona M, Elipsa or Amati Anniversario). You can compesate with "warm" speaker cables(a la Cardas Golden Cross) but, IMHO this is a wrong way.
If you want a good amp for new Cremona M choice is pretty big but, for me here is a short list:
Audio Research HD220/REF3 combo
Audio Research REF110/REF3 combo
Gryphon Diablo int. amp
Krell FBI int. amp
Pass X250.5/X1 combo
Or maybe some Plinius amp like SB-301?
You can add Yter cables and you will have pretty nice sounding system...
The point anout the grills make sense
The klimax amps stay no matter what
i have heard the smaller klimax twin on cremonas and i absolutly loved the sound the cremonas completly balanced the klimax amp out .
The klimax amps are very transperant and the kvality of the source is of abmost importans and i thing its here much of the coldness comes into play .
I know this for a fact since when i demoed the klimax amp we tried a lot of combinations
Its really a tuff on because i still need the new cremona M speakers to have a varm balanced sound to make them work best in my system.
Just read some more comments on the elipsa there seem to be many people that say it has that human warm midrange/top that many love about sonus faber speakers in general
And also that the elipsa are Full sounding wich is also good for the Klimas amps,
The vifa tweeter that used in the elipsa and the new cremona m is musch more smoth sounding compared to the scanspeak version in the strad and anniversario
Both versions is manufactored here in my home country denmark and i have heard many speakers that have the scanspeak version i have also owend the gamut l3 speaker wich have that tweeter.
Still need input for one ho have heard them
I heartily agree with you (and disagree with Brainimir) about the Sonus - Linn Klimax pairing. I think they sound excellent together.
I agree with Branimir...I did not care about the pairing of the Klimax Chakra with my Cremona's. Just for reference, I much preferred the Nagra VPA and Nagra MPA's with the Cremona's. Klimax is a bit too lean for my taste.
What frontend did you use ?
Well it dossent really matter enyway becaus i have heard the cremona 3 way with both klimax chakra twin and chakra c2200 and loved the sound and that was matters and i trust my ears more then enything else.
But enyway the word from the linn comunities is that dont even think about the klimax amps if you do not intend to use top notch front end otherwise you will end up with glarish sound so actually you get a better sound from lesser amplifires.
Every time i heard klimax amps or chakra we used the unidisk sc as both source and preamp.
We did alos one time try the majik frontend and cd player on the chakra c2200 and it sounded much to bright and sharp.
Not to be disrespectfull
Just read some of you comments on how important the preamp is you state that when you hit the 5000 usd mark it dossent get eny better .
every one that have experinces with highresolusion swiching amplifires know that that issent tru at all
ALL the swiching amplifires i have heard including nuforce ref 9 se V2 and kharma mp150 and various linn amps have all been xtremly sensitive to the front end used going from glarish brigt unbareble sound to smooth dynamic fantastic sound from the same amplifire.
Source first is the english school i do agree with that to some point but if you have a tube amplifire that colours the sound the difference will peroberly not be as clear.
Can someone point to me where I can find out more about Cremona M? Sounds like it's the tweeter change? Retrofitable?
Not only tweeter but, all drivers and crossover as well as some cabinet changes. New grilles(like the one on Amati Anniversario) and different back side of a speaker.
Different crossover points... Should I go on?
Oh yes, NOT retrofitable at all in old Cremonas...
There is a picture in the bottom
Its in norwegin
but its says new 7 inch bass drivers directly from the stradivari new twetter the same as in the elipsa and the midunit the say is from the stradivari as well but that i think is wrong i think its from the elipsa also.
it has also grown in all dimensions.
People and sonus faber team says its alot better then the old one
Maybe it is maybe it issent what i do know is franco had nothing to do with the creation of it .
But the coolest thing is that this new speaker costs almost the same as the old cremona.
Its almost to good to be true
maybe it dossent have soul like the old cremona only better hifi i dont know but i sure looks interresting.
Sorry the actually did say that the mid unit is the same as in the elipsa
I liv in denmark the home off scanspeak and vifa and the word on the street is the new scanspeak midunit is very very very good maybe without equel.
If the tweeter and mid range is the same and the bass drivers are bigger then what is the point of paying x2 the money for the Elipsa?
Do those changes apply to the Auditor as well?
Tda2000, you can be disrespectful if you like...no problems. I call it like I see it. My comparison is not only based on a tube amp...it is also based on the SS Nagra MPA amp, which was vastly superior to Klimax Chakra. I sold off my Chakra for a loss, but I did not care.
As to the front end, I have used a Wadia 27, and a Sony SCD-1. Also just for context, I don't believe front ends make a big difference. Same goes for cables.
I spend the most amount of money on Preamps, Amps, and speakers. You are welcome to buy whatever you like.
You just gotta wait to hear it Tda.... I heard the Cremona and A/B/C it against the Auditor and the Concertino Domus, and I feel like I actually understand the differences between each step. The Cremona is truly a transcending speaker for me at that moment in time. I think it's one of the more musical speakers I've heard thus far.
But again, you have to hear the Cremona M before you can make your decision. Nothing we say on this forum is of any value unless you, yourself, can get a pair of ears onto the M and compare it in real time with the original, only then will you be able to pull the trigger.
Tda2000, thanks for the link and info.
Sounds like Sonus Faber is moving more and more toward hifi and less musical sound. As a former owner of EA1, Extrema, Guarneri, Cremona Auditor and current owner of Amati, Cremona, and EA2, I found each iteration more hifi sounding. The old Sonus Faber might be too warm and dark, but new one are getting too soul less. The original Amati actually strikes a pretty good balance, wonder if I will actually prefer the original Cremona as well. There are no perfect speakers and just personal preference, will have to wait till I hear the new Cremona M to judge.
As for midrange, one speaker I recently heard that had the best midrange resolution, speed, transparency, impact, decay, you name it, is the Usher BE 10/20. It was an incredible experience and I don't get impressed easily. I thought Guarneri/Extrema/Amati have good midrange, Usher is a big big big step above. And at their asking price, Usher is a bargain consider the craftmanship.
But again as a Sonus Faber fan, I might pick up a pair of Cremona M or Elipsa just for fun.
Well what ever floats your boat.
But i absolutly did not hear what you describe infact the klimax sounded sweat even with neutral sounding speakers .
As for the two sources you used i dont know them so cant comment
what i do know is that i have heard the chakra twin many times and the cheaper c2200 chakra and the resulst with different frondends where profoundly different.
I love the sound of the klimax amps and epecialy with the cremonas ,and there was not even a hint of hardnes or edeginess and the ears never lie.
But if you really beleive that the klimax amps was to bright with the cremonas wich are a very forgiven and varm sounding speaker then somthing must be wrong in you system because then every one without warm sounding speakers would have hearing damaged by now.
Regardin cabels this we agree on.
I see this is pointless we all have different ears and tasts glad you found somthing you liked better in nagra and me in the klimaxes
I have heard the cremona many of times and you are right there is somthing about that speaker.
It has somkind of magic in it
i ones read somwhere that sonus faber speakers like the amati with the right gear can actually sing.
Well i thourgt it was a bit strange to say but i heard them cremona do the same thing with linn klimax chakra twin amp with unidisk 1.1 fronend hard to describe but easy to hear .
There are different kinds off audiophils , there are those that dont like sonus faber speakers because the are not the best at the hifi things ,and there are those that like sonus fabers because the are not so good at the hifi things. but masterpieces in musical reproduction.
Franco serblin diddent see the speakers as a devices that could bring you as close to the recording as possible wich pretty much is the goal for many hfi audiophils , but as somthing that could recreat the emotion in the music.
Have he did it i dont know but he did and thats why sonus faber are where the are today and why those that like sonus fabers love them.
One thing is for sure i wil not buy the new cremona m unless i have heard it first.
I know that im in love with the sound of the old cremona 3 way and i know that it is a match made in heaven with my soon to arrive klimax solos .
But again if the new cremona still have the maigic and smooth topend it would make sence to get those instead.
Some time ago when i sold on of my lyngdorf audio tda2200 amps i had a long talk to the frather of the guy who bourgt the amp, he had the orginal guanaeri and had the priveledge to listen to the new memento for one month to deside wether to buy it or not.
He liked the old one better and keept it.
I never said the Klimax Chakra is bright ! The Chakra's were very smooth, without edge. I said they were *lean* sounding -- which to me, means thin, and lacking body. The Nagra SS amp is fuller, with more body.
But you are right...we have different ears. But have you ever heard the Nagra MPA's ? You might like what you hear.
Someone who agrees with me on cables -- now that is surprising.
I agree and DISAGREE with you TDA... :).
I agree that the Cremona does something that is able to better emotionally connect you to the music.
I disagree in that I believe the Cremona is indeed a hifi speaker. It may not be as lean as what is stereotypically "hifi", but to me and my ears, what say that the lean "hifi" sound is actually colored?
The Cremonas are very transparent to the source as its character changes with the upstream variations.
I love these speakers, and I don't even own a pair.
Regarding the kvality of the source with cremonas your are so absolutly right.
if that makes it a hifi spekaker well then it is.
Its very easy to get a muddy topend with those cremonas also with lesser amplifires it can sound much to full dark and slow and grani.
But its not a analytical speakers thats for sure to me it plays music above all.
This actually puts many hfi people off becasue for those people music is only a instrument to test the given systems preformans.
I think that its also a speaker that will be responsiv to every thing in the audio chain and will sound better and better when you move up in kvality of source
and amps .
The new cremona m may have been designed so is better hifi wise but dos it still lest you concentrade on the music i dont no but im dying to find out.
Hi pinkus regardin cables lets just put it this way i have been down that road and spend a redicuasly amout off money .
one day i put my trusty old unterminated taralabs solid cobber cabels just to see how worse the where and i actually preferred them to the expensiv ones.
Sorry for my limited english skills im a dane i thourgt lean meant bright ann egdy.
Regarding klimax amps is a done deal for some reason i ge thardbeating and gooesspots all over every time i listen to them in other wrds i love the sound.
And i have listend to ALOT of gear through the years but never nagra.
maybe in a couple of years IF i will get tired of the klimax amps then i maybe should take a good listen to the nagra gear i have heard great things not just from you .
but again with klimax amps the source is very important and its here the sound is make or brake .
linn will soon put out a replacment for the sondek cd12 wich used hardisk play back this player is on top of my list when it comes out .
Take a look at the Cremona M in all its glory! I wonder if a new Cremona Auditor is coming out...
"I wonder if a new Cremona Auditor is coming out..."
I was told yes.
From what i was told the intire SF cremona line is going out of production and the new M models is taking over.
It sure looks great.
I have done alot of speculation regarding the new models.
Now from what i understand the new m models uses better drivers there for it it should be better .
Im from denmark the home of Vifa, Scanspeak, peerleees ,Dynaudio , Skaaning/ audio Technologies , gamut and so on
The general oppinion is that is not the drivers that makes the magic its the designers craftmanship you will hear.
The org cremona uses all scanspeak revelator units wich are from the top shelf of scanspeak
thise hand sliced units are scanspeaks absolut best units Today and are much superior and cost more the the units in the amati homage.
The cremona dossnet use the scanspeak tweeter but the vifa xt25 .
Many here in denmark including me thinks that the vifa tweeter sounds more smooth then the Scanspeak version.
The org cremona toke 3 years to developed and it was franco serblin at his peak that designed it.
The new M version cant have taken that much time to develop.
Maybe it is indeed better but i have heard birds singing about sonus faber wandting to make money now thats why the come with new speakers all the time and why the dont spend much time on developing new speakers
I hope im wrong
you may not use English fluently but you describing things that's well understood. Maybe the original Cremona is best for you in an offer price but wait to hear the new one to be sure. As for the development in Cremona it was a big success and made a new one not by scratch but elevating it to higher standards. But let's hear it first.
Since you're Dane what Danes say about the new Gryphon Mirage? is it much better than Sonata Allegro or not?
It seems you Danes make some of the best audio gear in the world!
Sorry for my limited english skills spelling is my weak side.
You`r absolutly right about the new cremona M it may very well sound fantastic.
The elipsa are getting rave reviews and comments Especialy for the mid/tweeter unit.
But unless the use better kval crossover components i have my doubts if its better in every way.
What i love about org cremona is its musicality it just brings joy in me
if this aspekt is not keept in cremona M i have no interrest in it no matter how impressing it may be in other areas.
Gryphon is the one danish brand i dont no enything about but i have not yet heard an older amplifire that betterd the newer model version.
Kops i know you own the amati anniversario wich where conceived by the new RD department of SF .
this may sound like and much to straightfull questian but do you think that the new amati still have the musical and emotinal sound wich i seem to cherish so much about serblins sonus faber creations . ?
I will jump in here and try to answer the question about Amati Anniversario emotional impact...
One of my friends who owns Amati Homage visited me sometimes ago to listen new Anniversario's. At that time I was auditioning Krell FBI int.amp with ARC REF CD7 cd player connected with Acrolink cables to Anniversario's. In his opinion sounds was "too modern, with too tight bass and way too many highs...". He left not impressed at all.
Second day in the morning he called me and said to me "that his Amati Homage sounded much worst latter yesterday when he got home and audition same CD that we were playing on my system(BTW, that CD is Hugh Masekela Hope-track 12 Stimela-IMHO excellent jazz/world music recording)!" He changed his opinion since he said that new Anniversario's are producing much more details without sounding bright at all... Accomodation period I guess...
In the end he sold Amati Homage and bought new Anniversario's as well...
In the end I would describe Anniversario's sound as "Modern and romantic" at the same time! These are not perfectly neutral speakers and you need to learn to live with some minor colorations(if you can not, there are many excellent alternatives). But, they really sound great if other members of your system are capable enough!
For me there is no doubt at all-Anniversario's are much better and complete speaker then old Homage.
Hi branimir thanks for sharing you thourgts.
I actually think that the new cremona will be much closer soundwise to the orginal one compared to the old amati vs anniversario.
The amaties uses completly different drivers.
Both cremonas uses the same spicies ringradiator tweeter and scanspeak midunit.
Somthing i have noticed with the org Cremona is it has a way of pulling you into the music.
forget about the coloration and The forgiven topend thats only miner things
what i mean is its way off presending the music itself.
At an all day demo with both the auditor and the 3 way driven by linn chakra c2200 and unidisk SC this is what i heard.
To me it starts out sounding almost exactly like the cremona auditor letting you enjoy the beginings fully , then when the music builds up it showes more an more power gradially pulling you in and then when the music klimaxes the room is filled with beatiful sound .
This is what a musical speaker can do it enhances the emotion in the music
How this is technially done i dont know but i think its by designing the crossover to act a surthen way.
I know that im not the first reporting this and this kvality from a speaker is why im into sonus faber speakers.
99% of the seakers i have listend to dosent do this the are more like magnifiring glasses that lest you study sound making you mind pay atension to the detajls instead of the music.
Lest hear what people say when the compare the old to the new head on.
During the duration of this thread of yours, I ended up auditioning and re-auditioning the Cremona line of speakers. I ended up purchasing the Auditor which I will build around as my 2nd system for now. When the Auditor M comes out, I will see which one I prefer and move on from there.
Atleast, this gives me something to look forward to.
And plus, I dont think I made a bad move by purchasing a pair of used Auditors... because considering SF is planning to ship out on September... it will probably be a long long time before dealers actually see them. For example, NO local Chicago dealer has the Ellipsa... and it was announced several months ago.
I wont be surprised if the M reaches our dealers by January of 2008. Until then, I'll be enjoying my Auditors!
New Cremona M is very, very different then original Cremona.
Here are technical details about Cremona M:
Crossover frequencies 400Hz/2300Hz
Freq. response 40Hz-30kHz
1120mm H x 225mm W x 565mm D
So, it is bigger, heavier and use completely different drivers and crossover...
BTW, new tweeter is also from Vifa and is similar to Elipsa tweeter, it is completely different in every way then original Vifa tweeter in Cremona. Midrange unit in new Cremona M is the same as Elipsa'a and again completely different then original Cremona unit. Only thing that is similar is the fact that both are produced by Scanspeak...
Sound of new Cremona M is closer to Elipsa or Amati Anniversario then to old Cremona's...
My SF dealer informt me that the Cremona M is ready for shipment and could be dileverd within a week.
The auditor was not yet aveileble.
The auditor is one hell of a small two way speaker to my ears it sounds very similar to the floorstander
but the floorstander are much more capeble when in dynamic and bass.
But overalle the share the same sound
I havent heard the anniversario or the elipsa so i have no way off knowing how the new cremona sounds.
What i dont understand is why sonus faber are making speakers that sound so much different then the speakers that have made sonus faber souch a respected speeaker company.
My Cremona Auditors will arrive in 2 weeks or so... so I'm pretty excited to hear them in my room. I will keep an eye out for the Cremona M (if it hits my dealers) and most definitely, the Cremona Auditor M... and reassess my position with SF at that time.
I dont think this will drop the resale value of the original Cremonas just yet as there wont be any new Ms on audiogon just yet.
i also dont think that the org cremona line will loss value in a major way becaus the will proberly sound signifently different.
Remember it was franco serblin that made the auditor .
By the way those enyone know if the new tweeter in the elipsa and the new cremona line are a Vifa unit as in the org cremona or a scanspeak revelator unit as in the strad ?
It looks like the scanspeak r29 rinradioator based apone on the spike in the middel but maybe its just the spike that is from scanspeak r29
regarding Amati Homage and Amati Anniverario, Branimir covered the issue correctly. Anniversario has all the qualities of Homage, has not the problems of Homage (boomy bass) and goes further in Dynamic range (117db with red hot chilli peppers! and not pushed or sweat!), bigger soundstage, bigger holographic picture, way better high frequencies and a bit more organic midrange.
Now as for musiallity the new Anniversario reflects your choices in the chain before it. You can have it the way you want it, put some tubes and get musical sound, put a Krell FBI and enjoy rock and hard rock, put a Gryphon and enjoy large classical orchestras in your room. Mix tube and solid state and make it the way you want it!
Anniversario likes power too and good sources also.
Emm labs cdsa se and Esoteric p03/d03 showed Anniversarios capabilities to the maximum.
It's a true reference speaker in it's price category.
The only alternative I can think of is the new Gryphon Atlantis which is in the same "flavor".
As for Cremona if you liked the original get the original.
I think i will buy the new cremona M i a couple off weeks when the finanses is ready unless somone hears it in the mean time and say the are horrible and bright.
maybe the build on the cremonas strong points but just sound better plain and simple just as you describe with the old homage vs the anniversario.
It will take forver before i get a chance to demo the M versions on linn klimax amps
im also getting a pair off yter cables for free from my sf dealer if i buy the new m version.
Only thing that buggers me is that the Klimax amps sounds so damm beatiful with the old cremonas namely because off the romantic forgiven tweeter in the cremona.
If this kvality have changed in a big way with the new M version the system balance may be ruiend .
The topend/tweeter from the speakers is the most important aspect for me if it stiks out to much its xtremly annoying and completly ruins music listning because i keep hearing it instaed off the music.
This the org cremona have completly avoided.
Keep a non-biased, non-hyped view when you hear your M's... I want to know exactly how you think it fares against the originals.
Thanks much friend,
talked to my sonus faber dealer today he have heard the new M cremona
He actually said it sounded very similar to the old cremona
but its more tight in the bass Yet even more dynamic.
The bass should be more controlled and not as boomy.
It still have that honey midrange and a topend that is oh so right .
He was actually raving about this speaker .
He also told me that the new auditor will be much bigger then the old one
Allso that SF will make som new wall mounted speakers with the eliptik shape.
But as every thing goes with speakers i need to hear them to know how the really act.
Well i have just spoken to the swedish sonus faber distributor
Its seems that its not even fully developed yet and will first be ready for shipping hopefully in spetember .
The pair in munich was a prototype and was only assembeld for the show.
So i ges that sonus faber dealer i wisited today have been blowing smoke up my ass.
Hmm... I am not so sure about that... My distributor will have them in July. First production run is Maple finish only. Graphite will follow in September... It is also about 800Euros more expensive on my market then previous version.
Either way... NO ONE has heard the actual production yet. I'm going to sit here with my Auditors and wait for the Auditor M.
IF the Cremona M truly madly and deeply blows me away... I just might replace my Martin Logan Summits for my reference setup.
Just read the specs on the new cremona M it seems that it only goes down to around 40 hz can this really be true ?
because the old whent down to 32 hz i read somewhere that the new m should be more capeble in the bass how can this be when it dossent go as low ?
Heard a pair in Bangkok a month ago.
Probably not the true production pair as was stated earlier.
But, anyway, how did you like it??
Just read the specs on the new cremona M it seems that it only goes down to around 40 hz can this really be true ?
because the old whent down to 32 hz i read somewhere that the new m should be more capeble in the bass how can this be when it dossent go as low ?"
Answer is simple as possible-SF was lying to us before! Elipsa is rated 35Hz and I can tell you it is going far deeper in bass then original Cremona... Franco Serblin was a true fan of overoptimistic frequency range data... Few examples my Amati Anniversario's are rated till 24hz but, in room(with room gain!) they go to 25Hz(-3db) and 20Hz is at -10db, Guarneri Memento is rated till 39Hz...
Do not worrie. new Cremona M goes deeper then old one. Problem is that SF was lying before(or publishing overoptimistic data...).
Personally, I am glad that new designer Paolo Tezzon is telling us only true... Good sign and good sound as well if I judge his work on Elipsa.
Jeff jarvis then spill the beans how did the sound ??
Are you sure the where the new version and where did you hear them besides that it was in bangkok ?
You hearing them a month ago contradicts strongly with what every dealer importer and so on i have said.
My mistake. I heard the Elipsa.
Branimir, here is a look at the in-room frequency response as published by Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/304sonus/index3.html
As you can see, the bass extends down to 25Hz. Also the port tuning frequency is 30 HZ. I do not think anyone is lying here. I think there is either a misprint the new Cremona M's specs, or it is a different speaker with less extended bass.
Thanks for the usefull explanation
New Cremona M is 40Hz-30kHz(anechoic) and old Cremona is rated to 32Hz(in room!).
Also John Atkinson room is pretty bass friendly(nice room gain).
BTW, if you look John Atkinson review of Amati Anniversario you will see that Anniversario do not go any deeper in bass in his room then old Cremona. BUT, in my room(almost 40m2) difference in bass definition, depth and tightness between Anniversario and old Cremona are night and day, belive me!
Elipsa also has better bass to my ears then old Cremona but, it is rated only to 35Hz(anechoic)...
Point is with room gain new Cremona M will go deeper then old one, at least IMHO...