New Gold Note PH 10

@lohanimal 
The PS.02 from what I have read is a really nice entry level unit from Whest.  It is probably similar to the Whest Three only it has a one box approach vs. the dual chassis design of the Three.  I know that with each step up in the Whest line, you get a corresponding increase in detail and response.  The Three is definitely a step up from the PS.02, but when you get into the realm of a late version PS.30 RDT SE or even higher, such as the PS.40 RDT, things really take on another level of incredible detail, response and amazing realism.  If you ever have the opportunity and stumble upon one of these preamps, you should bring it in to try against what you are currently using.    

Ah lohanimal, thanks for the update.  I am not familiar with your particular Whest, so I assumed it was the single chassis version.

I must say that I have spent quite a bit of time reading the customer reviews on the Whest Audio site and that has been enlightening. There are hundreds of reviews in which each the buyer compares whatever version Whest they have purchased against another phono stage they have been using.   It's interesting to read how each person gives defined opinion on the differences. 

Chakster, what was the main observation you have by using the PSU 10 power supply?  I have read some say it's a great improvement and others say that it's not worth paying for.

Oh yes, one other interesting item to keep in mind with the PH 10, which is really important. I have read and heard that some people have had issues with noise in the PH 10. Mine had what I would consider a lot of mid range/upper range 60 hz. noise and I was not happy. Since I have an excellent earth ground system (I am not talking about the ground in the house for the electrical service entrance), it’s a deep in ground copper ground system around the perimeter of the house and it ties back into a lot of high power RF radio transmitters; I decided to run a ground strap from the earth ground over to the PH 10. I suspected I had a ground loop issue going on and after installing a soldered spade connector to the back of the ground terminal on the PH 10, all noise disappeared, I mean gone. I suspect the amplifiers in the PH 10 are very sensitive and can pick up noise easily if not grounded. That’s just a tip for anyone who is having noise issues. The CA did not have this issue.

I would deem this as a typical ground loop problem and the ground I put on was at a different state from the electrical ground.

Actually you can cycle through any of the impedance loading options for use with the MM cartridges.  I found that 47K ohms works best for most with my AT20ss, however on some recordings the 22K ohm setting is warmer.   The main thing with MM carts is the capacitance loading.  I have used multiple settings with the Clear Audio and found that the 250pf input was best by far (but that takes in to account the capacitance of my cables from the cartridge to the phono preamp).   Audio Technica suggests input capacitance settings of 100 to 150 pf for the AT20ss, but when I tried the lower values, it was muddy sounding.  250 pf was the number.   The PH 10 is factory default at 220 pf and that is so close to the 250 pf I was using and happy with that I decided to just buy it and not worry.   Since I didn't have an option to try the Clear Audio at anything between 150 or 250 pf, I don't know what 220 pf would have sounded like in the CA.   The bottom line is; the PH 10 is wonderful at 220 pf and either 22K or 47k ohm input.  It really is outstanding and I'll put my AT20ss up against any MC for high dynamic range music; I suspect the AT20ss will come up on top.   

I suppose like anything, it's equipment dependent and certain cartridges like specific impedance.  As I stated, the AT20ss seems to enjoy either 47K or 22K ohm input.   I know that if it were to go any higher than 47K, it would be far too bright sounding.  If I have a recording which is too emphasized on the upper end, I drop the loading to 22K and it really mellows out.  That is what is so nice about the PH 10, you can do it with the turn of the front knob.

I suspect the PSU10 power supply is a nice addition for LOMC as you are depending on a lot more amplification due to the low output vs. a MM with 2.7mv which requires far less, hence the signal to noise ratio is very different.

OH, one other comment on the AT20ss and 47K ohm... I have a NOS stylus installed with probably not much more than 50 hours use.  Its very fresh, so it has a lot of upper end compared to a well used stylus, that probably is playing into some of why I like it at this setting.

I totally agree with both of you; adjustable input for MM is critical.  As said above, I have found for the AT20ss the 200 pf range just works out great (again with my audio cables) and the 22K or 47K ohm input is also very nice.  Just that from what I am hearing, I am not sure I'd go much higher than 47K as I can definitely hear a little too much accentuation on the upper range.   I might have to send a note to Italy and inquire if I can get a schematic of the boards and see where I could couple a series 47K resistor in line which would put things up near 100K just for fun.  Or perhaps I could use one of the loading resistors on the input RCA's which might do the same thing.  It could be fun to play with.

As far as grounding goes, I just want to make sure that my ground is a top notch earth ground and no worries, I do not run the audio system while running the on air transmitters :)

A couple of comments:

First, Clakster's  AT-20Sla if I recall was a Shibata diamond on an Aluminum cantilever; this was very similar to the AT15s Universal.  I had one of those last summer which I tested against the AT15ss/20ss which is a super Shibata on a Beryllium cantilever and there is quite a difference in upper end performance.  The aluminum item sounds much more mellow, almost muffled in comparison.  Therefore I would understand why a 100K ohm input would be helpful as it opens up the high frequencies more.  Since I am using the AT 20ss which has a huge frequency excursion of 5-50K hz, it's much more detailed on the upper frequencies and when I run it on 47K ohm input, it's superb.  If I were to get any additional boost in upper range by going to 100K ohms, I think it would not be a good match at all.  The Audio Technica factory suggested loading for the 20ss is 47k with 100-150 pf.  They are probably assuming some average for capacitance in the audio leads from the cartridge to the amplifier at some average user length which may be 3 to 6 feet.  I am using around 2.5 feet, so my capacitance is lower, hence the 220 pf I have works.

The other comment from Lew pertaining to grounding, I am not using generators.  I have an Amateur Radio station with very extensive antennae and high power amplifiers.  Since one HF antenna I have is a 7 element mono band LogYagi with very high gain and coupled to a 1.5kw amplifier, an excellent ground system is an absolute requirement to avoid RF feedback into the transmitted signal and also avoiding RF burns.  I have a few hundred feet of 1/4 inch diameter solid copper running in damp soil about 8 to 10 feet under ground and this ties back into the 'radio shack'.   I use this same ground to ground the cable TV line which is full of 60 hz. noise and my main audio system.  This is what I connected to from the PH 10 which eliminated all noise from the audio circuit. 

Also, I usually run 47K not 22K.  Only on some recordings do I find the 22K to be preferable, but that is not too many of them.

BTW Clakster, the AT20ss is really superb, I am not sure anything can touch it. :)

I would not be surprised if my transmitters cause interference with the audio system and vice versa, if I were to play my music as loud as I usually do, I know it would interfere with my transmitted signal :)  And it's illegal to transmit any music over amateur radio frequencies as they are not broadcast bands.   

I will send an inquiry off to Gold Note to ask about the idea of increasing the loading to 100K for MM and see if there is a simple solution to trying it without getting into the guts of the unit.

To answer the question, yes I have a fairly new PH10, I got it around a month ago, but I am not sure if its the latest version with the lowered noise floor.  That  was not really of interest to me as I was told the improved amplifier section for lower noise was on the MC side, not the MM.  Since I only use the AT20ss MM, I am not too interested in finding the latest model and I got a deal on this one.

On another note, I was e mailing with Maurizio in Italy this morning and he told me that they are indeed coming out with a high power version of the PH10 around June.  It will be called the PH1000 and it will have very extensive adjustments for capacitance loading and Clakster will love this, it will have a whole array of impedance settings for MM from 47k up to 100K including some ranges in between.  It will also have three turntable inputs and balanced XLR inputs.  It will not be a compact size case as the PH10, it will be a full 17 inch width case and will have an option for external power supply, but will have an enhanced internal power supply circuit.   Price?  Gulp, 6000 euros. 

He told me that changing the loading to offer a 100K impedance can be done, but only at the factory as they'd have to change one of the other impedance selections over to the 100K and probably have to write new software for the display to show it.  I am not sure I'd want to send my unit in to have this work done as I am sure it would not be inexpensive and I don't know how it would play with my AT20ss.  But I did suggest that they come out with a PH100, an upgraded version of the PH10 for MM users; he said he'd pass that on to his engineering team.   

User feedback is obviously welcomed by them.  They remind me of Axiom Audio in Canada who loves to work on projects with customers.... I have one sub woofer with a custom DSP algo and a switch to kick it in or out and they even engraved the switch positions with my "Bourbon Smooth" for flat and "Gin Gut Punch" for the 6 db boost.    Fun stuff.  In fact they are building me a new amp for my Bryston Model T sub with the "switch" for the DSP algo and a variable phase control as I have on two others from them.  Axiom builds the Bryston speakers to Bryston's specs, so they are the go to guys for experimentation.

I just picked up a new Musical Surroundings Nova iii phono amp which is $1500 retail and that's without the fancy Linear Power Supply option.  I wanted to try it as it has two input capacitance for MM loadings at 100 and 200 pf, also, it has the 'standard' 47K ohm and 100K ohm.  The PH10 is only a 220 pf fixed capacitance and 47K ohm or 22K.  

I only have around 15 hours on the Nova iii, but with the 100k input on an Audio Technica AT20ss all I can say is wow!   I have tested it at both 100 and 200 pf, both work nicely.  But the 100K input impedance is simply outstanding.  The increase in upper range detail, clarity and smoothness is far better than what I heard with the PH10.  Not to mention a substantial increase in the soundstage and holographic imaging.

I plan on ordering the Linear Power Supply once this is fully broken in as I am told it opens up all of the ranges that much more with further improvements in soundstage/imaging. 

lalitk,

I have now been living with my second Whest, the PS 30 RDT SE 2019 with many of the PS 40 RDT upgrades modified into it for over a year.  I would strongly suggest that you look at the Whest line, whether it is an  upper level unit like mine or a more mid range preamp such as the Whest Three or Two.  In my opinion, there is no contest against the PH10.  That is my input and I hope it helps.  My Whest Three I had prior the PS30 was a wonderful piece and that would be a great choice if spending a lot more is not an option.

Latest UPDATE:

I got in the Nova III linear power supply and used it for a few weeks. It definitely opened up the upper range, sound stage, imaging to a large degree over the standard as is Nova III. I’d say that I found the Nova III to be superior to the Gold Note PH10 in all aspects except for the mid range. The PH10 has a much more powerful and detailed mid range. I was not happy with the lack luster mids on the Nova III and I was equally unhappy with the lack of lower end/upper end in the PH10 compared to the Nova.

I had read so much good about the Whest phono stages out of London that when I saw a good deal on a used Whest Three Special Edition which comes with a dual mono external power supply (extremely heavy to say the least... like pounds), I bought it! I did an a/b against the Nova III (which I thought was superior to the PH10) and I was blown away. The Whest puts both the Nova and the PH10 to shame in my opinion. It has it all; low end, mids upper range and simply jaw dropping detail. The sound stage and 3D imaging is superb. The Nova and its power supply went back to the dealer and the Whest is a keeper, not looking to make any changes at this point :)

For cost comparison:
PH 10 is around $1600 (I didn’t try it with the optional external power supply)
Nova III is $1500, external power supply adds in another $650
Whest Three SE with the included dual mono high voltage PS is around $4K

The loading on the Whest is fixed at 91pf input capacitance, and the impedance is at 47K ohms. It works wonderfully with my AT20ss MM.  James at Whest suggested that I change out my phono cables which are at 120pf at .7 meter length for a cable with much lower capacitance, such as 50 or so pf. This would dial in the total capacitance to around the 140 to 160 pf range which my AT20ss would really enjoy.

Chakster,

You should try to get your hands on a Whest phono stage; the low end and lower mids are just simply outstanding.  I have never heard such detailed, powerful articulate bass and lower mid range.  And from there up through all the rest of the ranges its just mesmerizing.

I think that if I ever were to sell the Whest Three Special Edition, it would be move up to one of their next higher level offerings as I read that they are even that much more resolving; but the cost is very high.  These are not inexpensive phono stages, however if you were to look at the build quality of the boards and the amount of discrete components used, you would understand why.  Plus they use Clarity Capacitors in their construction which is exactly what Bryston uses and why Bryston gear is so expensive.   I recently picked up a new Bryston PX1 external crossover for my Bryston Model T main speakers which have been modified to the fully active platform and I now use the PX1's.  These things are beasts!  And you should see the build quality.

When I got the PH10 initially, I really liked it; however I was coming up off of a Clearaudio Smart V2, which is a very nice unit, but it’s restrained; what can you expect out of a $700 unit? With time on the PH10, I found that it was better at the mid range and not much different in the upper range/sound stage/imaging. That was what prompted me to try the Nova III which blew away the PH10 in low end bass and upper end. The next move was to try to improve the mid range and retain the low/upper ranges. That motivated me to try the Whest which I have heard so many great things about. It was the best move I made. It has not only as much dynamic low end power as the Nova, but it’s far more detailed and articulate. And that smooth well defined response carries throughout the ranges. I love it.

This has been a very interesting journey over  the past few months and it has given me a healthy appreciation for how some electronic pieces can perform so differently from each other.

Chakster, just to give you an idea of how powerful the bass is; with its beautifully detailed articulation....  My ex-wife who still works for me and runs the business office at a location around 150 meters away, down the hill from my home made a comment to me two nights ago.   She said "I could hear your music down at the office over the sound of the cars passing on the main highway in front.   I was somewhat perplexed as I was not really playing it very loud.  I had my Anthem AVM60 preamp set at around -25db level which is robust, but certainly not blistering and all I had open were the two French doors to the deck.  I said what exactly were you hearing and she said the music and 'that bass'.  It was just pounding.  

I guess that tells the Whest story well :)

I had questioned this variation in specs and sent an e mail to Gold Note back in March.  They clarified the misprint and told me that it's 220pf.   That is still on the high side for a lot of MM carts.  When you add in 5pf for the cable in the tone arm, 50 to 120 pf for the phono interconnect and the input of 220pf  its very high.

My AT20ss likes to see 100 to 150 pf total.   The capacitance makes a huge determination in performance.  It would be nice if they either offered variable settings or fixed it at a low level so that one could make adjustments via the phono cables.

I am surprised that Gold Note has not changed the specs in their listing as they know it is not correct.

 

Lew, yes I did use it with the PH10.   In fact its all I use!  My AT20ss (which was an AT15ss prior to this past winter when I swapped out the stylus for a NOS AT20ss stylus) has been in use since 1976.  I like it too much to migrate over to any MC carts.  In fact a friend of mine who has an Ortofon  Windfeld Ti recently put an AT15ss with a NOS Stylus I sold to him into service.  He's having a hard time determining if his $4500 Windfeld Ti is better than the old vintage MM :)

I really enjoyed the PH10 a lot.  It had very nice mid range, it was dynamic and very clean.  

The Whest Three doesn't use any capacitors in the output stage I am told and the input is "trimmed" as James says for 91pf on the input.  He suggested that I change out my 120pf phono cable for something along the lines of 50 to 60pf to dial in the total capacitance to near the 150pf range for the AT20ss.   James at Whest is very familiar with the AT20ss, he said it's a "GREAT CARTRIDGE", that is a direct quote.  He loves it and said that its a perfect match up with the Whest Three phono stage; especially if I lower the input capacitance with a input cable change.

A friend of mine sent me a link to some Mogami pro audio cable which is 14pf per foot.  A meter or so of this cable would really dial this in if I have a cable made up for the SME IV tonearm to the 

Actually I was 'sort of happy' with the Gold Note.  The Gold Note had some software control issues in terms of the relays controlling the Gain and Loading settings.   I was told by the factory to do a firmware update which came out late spring.  I honestly didn't wish to deal with this as I wanted something much more simple to keep in operation.   Plus I found the Gold Note in my system tended to have ground loop issues, which I did eliminate with experimentation, but again I am looking for simple.

As far as performance goes, the Gold Note has a very nice mid range, but compared to the Whest Three with its outboard power supply and dual mono power line feeds (each is a 5 conductor XLR), there is no comparison.... the Whest is hands down far better.   The Gold Note cannot compete with the Whest in terms of low end dynamic output and the upper end is far smoother with a substantial advantage in sound stage and 3D imaging.   The mid range in the Whest is also excellent; so in essence, it has it all.   In addition, the Whest has a very pronounced superior level of detail.   I am very anxious to try out some new low capacitance phono cables shortly just to hear what that does.   


As far as noise goes, the Whest is extremely quiet, I don't even know if it is on when I switch over to the phono input on the system.  The Gold Note was not nearly as quiet.  But you pay for all of this as the Whest is almost 3 times the price point; but in my eyes well worth the cost.

Lew,

There is technically only one version of the Whest Three SE.  I know that they have a special "rare" version which is a souped up Three SE and they add the 40 RDT SE front end to it.  But that is even more money.

If you get the regular Whest Three SE, it comes standard with the  HVDM high voltage dual mono power supply with the two XLR interconnects.  They also include some RCA input interconnects with it.  It runs around $4K US dollars new.

The 30RDT SE is a discontinued phono preamp.  It was replaced this year by the 40RDT SE.  The Whest Three SE is the model just below the 40RDT SE and its a 2/3 sized chassis vs. the full rack width of the upper end Whest units.  The upper end units have a dedicated compartment with a divider between the main boards and the toroid transformer.  The Three has its own dedicated chassis with the transformer, which I like and I like the 2/3 main unit as it's easier to fit on my shelving. 

From what I read, there is no question that the upper end Whest unite like the 40RDT SE, Titan Pro, Reference VI are very special items.  The Reference is a dual mono pair of chassis phono preamps.   I have to assume that they have done their design homework on making sure the single chassis designs work as well as independent preamps and power supplies as Whest has such a good reputation.

When I had my PH10, I spoke with a local dealer about potentially ordering the external power supply for it.  He told me that it didn't make much difference in the performance and suggested that I not spend the money.  He also said that the Gold Note units he has sold do seem to have issues with noise; not all of them, but some.

My unit was noisy to me, but that could well have just been how it matched in with my system and may not have been the case with another system.  I didn't realize how much noise it had until I installed the Whest Three SE, which is super quiet.

Two nights ago my brother came in for a visit.  He is a video producer/engineer and is pretty astute.  He was here a few months ago when I had the PH10 and we spent a few days of listening to a large and varied selection of music.  I told him about the new Whest and he was anxious to listen to it.  After one high dynamic range record, he just shook his head, smiled and said hands down, absolutely no comparison the whest just blows the PH10 out of the water... he was amazed at how unbelievable the system sounded.

Granted, typical Italian design and they do a very nice job as always (have you sliced your fingers yet on the overly sharp vent cuts on the case?  I did every-time I handled it).   But the performance doesn't really come close to the either of the Whest units I have/had.   I sold my Whest Three Signature and now have my wonderful custom 'trimmed' PS 30 RDT SE 2019.   I will say that I do like the case work on the Whest too, it's not as fancy as the PH10, but it is a very understated pleasing piece.

That is exactly why I deferred to my friend John who has owned countless phono stages, its his hobby to rotate in/out of various designs.
He was the one who chimed in with me early on about the PH 10 which he owns.  We exchanged thoughts on it and his observations were in line with mine, it was just OK, not great.  Nice mid range audio, but the low end and upper end lacked and the sound staging was very so so.   He pushed me to Whest phono stages as he told me the Titan Pro was the finest phono stage he had ever experienced, hands down.   I was not going to pay upwards of $13K for one, so I got into the mid range units which are very similar to the Titan and that was enough for me.  Now I am thinking that I just have to have a Titan Pro before I lose my hearing just so that I can say that I had one (much like flying a P-51, I do plan on that at some point before I cannot fly any longer and I am kicking myself for having turned down the opportunity once before due to the cost of the fuel at the time).  :)