Hey Audiozen... Good find! I'll have to check this Bel Canto REF600M baby out.
Meantime, here is the REF600M home page:
http://www.belcantodesign.com/eOne/products/amplifiers/ref600m-amplifier/
Best, Guido |
Sebollo, M22 and Bel Canto Ref600 are completely different designs... Different manufacturer, different circuits, and likely different modules. I would not venture to guess sound of REF600 based on listening to M22.
In general, NCore tends to have a high input impedance, hence compatibility with upstream devices should not be an issue. REF600 in particular, seems to have an input impedance of 200KOhms.... So upstream compatibility should be a non issue.
Downstream, NCore appears to have a damping factor between 500 and 1000, so it is possible that it works best for speaker with normal or lower input impedance... For my Vienna Die Muzik, NCore is a wonderful match.
Regards, G. |
Hi Sebastian, now I understand.... And I agree completely with you. If a component is particularly neutral, the components upstream and downstream will be somewhat more responsible for imparting a "desired" or "undesired" flavor to the output.
In my case I have been very lucky.... My trusty old Esoteric X-01, Rowland Aeris DAC, and Vienna Die Muzik speakers match beautifully with all NCore based amps I have had so far in my system: Merrill Veritas, Merrill Teranis (under review), and my Rowland M925 monos... Of course, all this simply means that the sum of the parts match my own particular goldilockian bias *grins!*
Just for the fun of it, a couple of months ago, I inserted into the system my ARC Ref 3 linestage.... And guess what... The overall sound became instantly much darker, warmer... And yes.... Tuby. The changed was much more pronounced than what I would have expected from a linestage insertion. Not my prefered sound by any stretch, but it had great charm in its own musical way.
It will be fascinating to find out what Bel Canto REF600 does for living... And what subtle flavor it imparts to the NCore base. Knowing John Stronczer past accomplishments, I am pretty confident it will be a worthy amp.
Guido |
Hi Audiozen, I'll try to find out what NCore module there is inside REF500. As for power supply, I have heard that each mono chassis sports its own Hypex NC1200/700 SMPS, which is powerful enough to support even the full blown 400W 38A peak current of NCore NC1200. This means that the 300W/8 600W/4 at 27A peak current can be supported with plenty fheadroom to spare.
On REF600, John Stronczer seems to have concentrated his design work on the custom differentially balanced input stage instead.
One useful feature of REF600 is the internal DIP switch to change gain from 27dB to 33dB.... This will be quite useful for use with lower efficiency speakers, such as the Maggie 3.7, and probably my own Vienna Die Muzik which has a bit of a wilding impedance curve.
G. |
Sebastian, gain option is featured on the official product specs listed on the device page. I suspect that if the switch were a no-op because of some inherent NCore limitations, Mr. Stronczer would not have bothered with it... But I will ask him directly when I talk to him next.
Worth pointing out that a gain setting is available on other NCore based amps... E.g. Merrill Teranis, and my own Rowland M925.
In the case of Teranis, to optimize interoperability with my Vienna Die Muzik speakers, gain was increased to 29dB with no ill effects... On the contrary... Noise level did not grow at all, nor distortions were introduced... But that's the topic of a different thread.
G. |
Spoke with John Stronczer, he confirmed that REF600 has an internal 27/33db dip switch. According to him, the higher gain may be particularly indicated when the amp is driven directly from some lower gain DACs.
John has also confirmed that each REF600 chassis sports an NCore NC500 amplification module, in addition to an NC1200/700 SMPS.
Eventually, I hope to be able to listen to the creatures in my own system.
G. |
I agree with Bill... With the premise that I have not heard REF600 yet, I have found REF1000 Mk.2 to perform comfortably above REF500... And every NCore amp that I have listened to this far has comfortably outperformed the admittedly lovely REF1000 Mik.2.
Hence, I conjecture that REF600 likely outperforms REF500 on all audible parameters.
G. |
Hi Mapman.
Yes in theory you are correct... ICEPower 1000ASP, at least in theory, supplies 25% greater power than NCore NC1200. In my own system, NC1200 amps tend to create even more authority, a larger stage and images than 1000ASP machines... Go Figure!
In my own system, in terms of audible intermodulation control, REF1000 Mk.with its custom input stage 2 did a fine job at freeing the treble region from jarring artifacts. Rowland M312 with its more sophisticated input stage, custom SMPSs and PFC rectifiers did even a little better. Yet, Veritas, which has no custom input stage to speak bout, and uses a stock non-regulated Hypex SMPS, is virtually free of audible intermodulative artifacts short of some rare boundary conditions.
And then I could talk about harmonic exposure, micro detail and micro dynamics, and the sheer joy of listening to emotional music.... Which a very small number of older ICEpower amps deliver through a lot of ingenuity of their designers.... While NCore modules seem to be able to surpass even through some of the simpler amp implementations.
Does this mean that ICEpower is passed history? Not at all... I am sure that ICEpower will once again rise to the forefront with new offerings... Just not in any amps I have heard yet.
G. |
Sebastian is correct... So one more datapoint... ICEpower has not been relegated to the refuse-pile of history by any means... There are today new amp designs based on newest ICEpower modules that are said to have amazing musical performance. One example is the Rowland M125 bridgeable amp.
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/questions.php?questionid=693
M125 is not a competitor of REF600... Less power and smaller power supply capacity... But I have heard reports according to which this is also an amazing sounding little amp... Sorry, I have not heard M125 yet.
Guido |
Hi Richard, you are absolutely right, M125 does not deliver the current required to drive demanding speakers like your Ariel 7Ts... It is more suited for speakers with more moderate handling requirements.
G. |
Hi Taylor, how many hours on your REF600 pair? Seems to me that the NCore NC500 module might require at least 500 hours of signal grinding in order to deliver its very best performance.
Guido |
