If you want to get any real benefit out of biamping, you really need to use an active crossover, imo.
NEEDED!!! Bi Amp Pros out there that can give me some advice
Ive never Bi Amp'd before and I would like to try it out. I want to avoid costly mistakes so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Aragon 8008 bb would keep for the lows
Pass Labs Aleph 5 Amp looking to buy for the highs
Dunlavy SC 3's
PS Audio Perfect wave DAC no longer using a preamp
HSU ULS 15's sealed in Stereo two of em
Tice Power block signature.
The 8008 BB is 200 at 8 ohms and the Dunlavys are 5.5 nom. The Aleph is rated at 60 wpc at 8 and 90 at 4. So I guess Id be running around 70 wpc with the PASS at 5.5 non load. Since Im running XLR out I would either have to y split the XLR's outta the PS Audio or use concurrently with RCA's that the PS audio will do. but I know that changes things on output impedance. So Im hoping some of ya guys been down this path and will help me out. Thanks in advance for any feedback
Aragon 8008 bb would keep for the lows
Pass Labs Aleph 5 Amp looking to buy for the highs
Dunlavy SC 3's
PS Audio Perfect wave DAC no longer using a preamp
HSU ULS 15's sealed in Stereo two of em
Tice Power block signature.
The 8008 BB is 200 at 8 ohms and the Dunlavys are 5.5 nom. The Aleph is rated at 60 wpc at 8 and 90 at 4. So I guess Id be running around 70 wpc with the PASS at 5.5 non load. Since Im running XLR out I would either have to y split the XLR's outta the PS Audio or use concurrently with RCA's that the PS audio will do. but I know that changes things on output impedance. So Im hoping some of ya guys been down this path and will help me out. Thanks in advance for any feedback
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Here is Paul McGowan explaining both bi-wiring and bi-amping...He states in the video EQUAL GAIN is the most important thing when Bi-Amping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luiUKhuUhCY |
I agree on what cleeds said. Also, like joe said, your different amplifiers will likely have different gain, which requires you to have some sort of ability to detune the level of one amplifier (either using a passive preamp or active crossover, such as Bryston 10B or something similar). Or just use exact same amps for high/low. |
Is it even worth it ? or am I headed down a rabbit hole from hell. I no longer have "UNLIMITED" audio bucks... Given my system if you had a couple grand to spend what would you do? Room is 20ft x 15ft x 8ft high with one opening 7ft x 7 to the rest of the pad. And not acoustically treated... Options on my mind is wait for a "Super AMP"... aka pure class A Krell FPB, Pass Labs, Plinius 250 or somthing else. Im too lazy to deal with tubes plus Id go "OCD" at all times worried that one of the tubes were not pulling their weight and that would pull me away from the music lover side of me.. From my exp if ur gonna run SS pure class A is the way to go. But the Aragon 8008 BB is pretty darn good. Other options are upgrade to the PS Audio Direct Wave not sure if that gonna be an upgrade. Ive now gone digital only and use my laptop with usb into the first through a Schitt Eitr that reclocks upsamples tp 192 and then and another digital lens in the PS Ausio Direct Stream. Or change out speakers... yes I know huge can of worms but Maggies 3.6 or 20's were always amazing to me but IMO think the Dunlay SC3's are gonna be tough to beat with the HSU ULS 15's all sealed system. And again only gotta couple grand to spend... If I wait long enough I could get 6 or 8k. Thanks guys for chiming in and now Im terrified of Bi amping and thats out. I really mean that If I have to buy an outbord Xover Im out. I like the less is more approach. |
What are you after? That Aleph 5 is a pure Class A with output of 60 watts per channel (8 ohms). The Aragon 8008 BB has a bias of 26 watts into Class A (which is pretty high for a typical Class A/AB amp). However, the Aragon is going to be able to push more current and bass power overall, due to bigger power supply, etc. I have heard the Aragon. It is a nice amp, but it is voice VERY warm. I don't really know what the Aleph sounds like, but based on Is the Aleph 5 running out of gas on your speakers? Or are you looking for something that supposedly has better sound quality? The Krell FPB amps are likely to have much more resolution, attack and detail than the Aragon. However, that Krell Class A is going to be a very "creamy" sounding Class A, especially in the mids with piano and voices. I think the Pass Labs XA series is not going to be "creamy" like the Krell, but I think it may still have an element of warm sounding sonic signature. It may have more resolution than Aragon (which is VERY warm sounding). |
Yep, if you dont want an OCD rabbithole dont go biamp, because you know there is Triamp right ? For sure youll want an active crossover to do it right and someone mentioned Room treatments, do not take this suggestion lightly. Rooms without treatment are for listeners not serious about their music reproduction. Rooms sound HORRIBLE with zero treatment. (no comments about my room has no treatment and sounds great, it just means you think horrible sonics sound great) I am about to Quadamp my rig in roughly 30 days when my custom 4 way hand built active crossover arrives. Because nobody makes them .. LOL talk about ignoring signs. Sometimes for me anyways I just got to pedal to the metal whatever I'm working on. Either way itll be one hell of a ride ! |
Rooms without treatment are for listeners not serious about their music reproduction. Rooms sound HORRIBLE with zero treatment. (no comments about my room has no treatment and sounds great, it just means you think horrible sonics sound great)This is probably one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on here. Not that room treatments are a bad thing, but that can also be a rabbit hole waiting to happen. I have been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt with room treatments, and like anything else, if you plan carefully you can achieve very good results. Now the idea of using a super amp is a sound one, but careful planning dictates that you need to get the amp/speaker match right. Not difficult really, some research and auditioning should get you there. Those who mentioned the use of an active crossover are providing sound advice when it comes to bi-amping. It is also the approach I took. Roger Modjeski at Music Reference recommended the bi-amp approach to me with my Quad ESL 57 speakers. He actually sourced the 8" drivers for me and I built my own woofer boxes. I use a Luxman M-02 for the low end and a set of direct drive amps or OTLs for the top end. The active crossover is a Beveridge RM-3 that has low and high attenuators so you can adjust the gain accordingly. The low and high pass boards in the crossover are 100 Hz 4th order Linwitz-Riley. I have 4 small footprint woofers placed in an asymmetrical array around the room. Two can work as well. The array helps eliminate the room nodes. You can read more on the concept here: http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html Also, please read the post by Roger Modjeski (ramtubes) on 9/2/2018 at 12:40pm in this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/autoformers-the-benefits-in-matching-amp-to-speaker Roger is one of the best designers in the business and his experience in bi-amping has helped me achieve the best sound I have ever had in my system. Oh and BTW, once I set up my distributed woofer array I was able to ditch all my room treatments. As good as my room measured with treatments before the change, they measured better without them. |
@clio09, really interesting to hear you are using a quad of 8" woofers with your Quads. Did you go sealed, or ported? If sealed, about a 1 cu.ft. box? I’ll bet it’s the same woofer Roger uses in his Music Reference ESL’s (which I’m dying to hear), ay? Ain’t it great to have Roger posting on AudiogoN of late? I REALLY miss his AudioCircle Forum (which can still be accessed). By the way, Rythmik Audio and GR Research now offer an 8" model of their OB/Dipole Sub, which is the same as the 12" model but with less output. Great with planar speakers, of course. I have no doubt four 8’s is better than two 12’s, for the well-known reasons. Better to deal with bass modes acoustically than electronically! ---Eric. |
@bdp24 - Yes Eric I have what Roger now calls the Airspring woofer system. They are sealed 1.4 cu.ft. (internal) boxes with 1.4 cu.ft. Very small footprint in comparison to the Audiokinesis Swarm (which are also fantastic) and work quite well. When we exhibited at the Newport show a few years back Roger brought the system (he uses two woofers) and we were able to set up the room rather quickly. No monkeying with room treatments or anything else. Quite a difference from other rooms I have had to set up. DSP was never an option for me. As Roger says why take an analog signal, convert it to digital and then convert it back to analog. I can understand why some folks like it and I'm not saying it doesn't work, just too many steps. It is good to see Roger posting here. Another voice of reason is just what this site needs to call attention to a lot of misinformation that exists here. Unfortunately his time is limited so he may not post as often as we might like. Fortunately for me I work with him and have good access to his knowledge. |
Yes the direct drive amps are nice and Roger does use them in his home system. In the shop we just listen to whatever is lying around. I think right now it's a vintage Marantz receiver with some basic small monitors. The digital source is an old Sony ES model. It is actually a very nice set up. Definitely let us know when you will be in town. You can come over and listen to my set up too. I have direct drive and OTL amps, as well as a couple different ESLs. |