Thanks, Lugnut. After only a few hours of scanning the fora, I thought the ZYX too. Which one? Any suggestions for phono preamp? Stupid question if you dont mind: What depth must I allow for the turntable (I cant move the existing cabinet and have 17". Is that enough?) |
You guys never disappoint! Thanks a whole lot, Nsgarch! I now have a primer to go after, but I haven't tallied the budget of what you suggest. My Dominus budget has dried up, besides which, I never bought Dominus new, but was lucky to find used. I hope I dont end up having to sell my EMM gear and all the CDs:) |
Just as a courtesy to all of you helpful and long-suffering vinyl junkies who helped me, I am following up with the rig I ended up with.
Thanks again for the input.
SOTA Sapphire TT
Origin Live Encounter tonearm
Shelter 901
EAR 824 Phono stage (balanced) |
Rush,
I like the budget and simplicity. Would the JMW 9 tonearm mate with the ZYX cartridge? If not, which of the cartridges you mention would be closest in character to the XYX? My MP-1 is linestage only. Dont feel like shipping it back so which Phono preamp has balanced outputs? And is in keeping with budget above? |
Thanks for the Rhea suggestion,, Rush. I will call Larry and Mehran on Monday. The Rhea sounds ideal, but, unfortunately, takes up a large amount of real estate (18" deep) which is not available in my set-up. Too bad, as there is a barely used one on A'gon. WAF will not allow for a new piece of furniture, nor will the budget, which, from the suggestions above, will probably mean getting rid of a whole smaller ancillary digital system in another room. But you vinyl guys obviously think that's OK - and I'll let you know in a few months if you were right:)
By the way, to all of you, to whom I am very grateful, I want simple, so no air pumps or Linn Sondek type "difficult to set up" arrangements - less fussing the better. No exceptional tweaky units - I want instant or semi-instant vinyl voodoo! And my TT and tonearm should be less than $3K, cartridge less than $2K and phono stage about the same. Total of about $7-8K, I guess.
How about VPI Aries Scoutmaster + JMW-9 toneram,ZYX, + a phono preamp to be determined. I need more suggestions of balanced outs that would mate with the MP-1 and a ZYX cartridge, please, for about $2K?
|
Add phonostage to MP-1 - that's exactly what Larry at Hollywood Sound said and didn't even want to debate the issue: synergy, less cables, no more searching. I was impressed that as far as he was concerned that was so obvious as to exclude any discussion. No-nonsense, upfront guy, Larry. I was speaking more of my innate reluctance to entrust any equipment to the vagaries of our national carriers - FedEx and UPS. I'll persuade Bax Global - they rarely mess up. Ok, one down, thanks, Rush. He (Larry) suggested Nottingham and Helicon (Lyra). Both he and another Vinyl Dealer thought I would be underwhelmed by the Scoutmaster. Origin Live with an Illustrious/Encounter tonearms the other suggestion.
Comments? |
How does a Origin Live resolution + Illustrious tonearm + Shelter 90x + Whest 0.20 Phonostage sound to you pundits?
How important is it not to have balanced ins and outs for an Atma-Sphere preamp and amp that are fully balanced designs?
Thanks again for your input. |
Both he and another Vinyl Dealer thought I would be underwhelmed by the Scoutmaster.
Well, he's obviously not a VPI dealer !! - Readster
They both are, Readster!!! |
I also dont want to argue - I would love to buy a VPI - and I certainly respect what you & Rush say. Let's just say I "misheard" Larry, since he is a VPI seller according to the website that I have just checked - maybe he just said that by omission. I think I'm treading on dangerous ground here, since Larry was extremely helpful and I probably should have shut up about my sources, as I will do in future. Blame me, not Larry. Let's say it was NOT Larry. OK? I certainly dont want him to be blamed by VPI because I was indiscreet.
Can we drop this now? I certainly appreciate all the input from everybody and dont wish to impugn any make/manufacturer/dealer. |
My sense is that Springbok10 is a man of means...
I hope my wife never reads this thread, since I told her we couldn't afford to re-furnish the family room. How could we? Every red cent is earmarked for sonic solace, which is how I justify the insane spending on just a "hobby"........but then I doubt I'm alone?:)
But I appreciate Opalchip and swampwalker's thoughts and have not discounted them. In fact, it is not improbable that I will start with a vinyl rig on my junior system, which is not of the caliber of the main rig, until, as Opalchip so aptly says, I can see if this vinyl thing is for me, long-term, before spending what is clearly big bucks, because I certainly dont qualify, main rig notwithstanding, as a "man of means". You know about the guy who has a Benz parked outside his tent? |
Nsgarch,
I presume the Manley, ($7.3K) Tom Evans Groove ($3.6K) and EAR 324 ($3.6K) are all balanced? Why, if this is so crucial, do dealers tell me that they hardly sell any balanced units as phono stages? Is this not true? I am not arguing, since I have zero experience or factual basis to argue, but obviously seek information, and, looking at your system, you are eminently qualified to give it! The Atma-Sphere MP-1 can handle over 0.3mV without a transformer and Ralph's phono stage has a good reputation, although the reviews on the ones you mention (+ the Whest) are really stellar. I have always believed in having balanced sources, since the strength of Atma-Sphere is the fully balanced set-up, but get told by numerous dealers that it doesnt make any difference (to their ears) in using single-ended, eg Whest, phono stages. Of course, naturally, it may be that those I spoke to sell single-ended designs. Comment? |
Thank you all for your input. I have decided to start "modestly" with my vinyl system, since I will only have 200 or so LPs of questionable condition (havent been played for 20 years, some of them)to start with, dont know if I will really get into vinyl again as I have with Digital, and being realistic, will have to spend $15K to match the quality of my main rig and CD source - no question. That's too many $$$ for an experiment.
But I have 2 smaller rigs, in my office, and my den at home, so sorry to bore you, but will have to ask again for recommendations, since the question is now easier, as I will plug the analog system into either (or each in turn) of these systems and see how it goes before possibly graduating into the big-leagues in the main rig. I also agree with the sage who said that no audio-nut will be content with a weak link in a good system. Office system: Denon APL 3910, Jadis orchestra Reference int amp, Merlin TSM-Mx speakers; Den system: Cairn Fog V2 with upsampler, Bel canto SETi 40, Proac S1 speakers.
Thinking of used Linn/Ittok arm/valhalla (on A'gon for $1290 with Denon 103 - waiting to hear which) and Phenomena/EAR 834P/or similar quality phono stage used which should all come to about $2-$2.5K, which is about what I wish to spend on this "experiment" with the above 2 rigs.
Any further suggestions/comments would be most welcome. I have saved all the suggestions in the event I do get into vinyl again and start collecting and listening big-time. But who knows, the above systems may just sound great, right? |
That's my problem, Viridian, I never take good advice! |
Further update and question: Now, 5 weeks later, and still waiting for its arrival, SOTA Sapphire V TT, OL Illustrious tonearm, Shelter 901, EAR 824. As some of you wisely predicted, this will not only end up in the main rig (Atma-Spheres, Kharma 3.2s) but will start there. Hence the balanced phono stage. So that I know what to expect, and do not have delusional expectations, will it sound as "good" as the EMM set-up???? Yes, no or maybe:)? Predictions, please. Will I be screaming for an upgrade soon or walk around like a Cheshire cat? |
Very helpful advice. Appreciate it, Nsgarch! |
It is obvious why, when I went to Cutler's record/CD shop in New Haven yesterday, they had maybe a few (if that) hundred old LPs, most of them of average-poor quality, and many, many thousands of CDs - and no new classical LP pressings............because people dont want to change the VTA for each season, each LP and clean the software 100 different ways before each playing! I think it takes a very punctilious, organized, super-anal personality to get the most out of vinyl, whereas most music lovers are just ready to hit the load and play buttons and forget about the hardware. True? Yes, which is why I threw away all my LPs 14 years ago -But I have committed a few thousand $S and a lot of research, and hours of all your valued time on A'gon for advice- so I am now committed and ready to join the club, but with trepidation and a sense of realism that I am entering the lion's den. Sonic bliss of the digital kind is so easy - with vinyl you have to work really hard for the same auditory kicks per unit dollar/hour/joule expended. Almost like riding through lush countryside on a bike or a motor-bike. Who would choose the bike when the gradient is 20 or 30 degrees? A masochist, it seems. Hey, that's what makes life fun. Choosing the tough ride because the rewards are greater, in the final analysis. We'll see. Soon. Hey, the good part is that if the vinyl re-birth blows me clean through my living room window, I can sell the EMM gear and upgrade to an SME 30 and bring the APL Denon 3910 home for CDs and live happily ever after.......... |
Nsgarch, Unfortunately, your reasoning resonates in me in ways almost mystical, but very persuasive - to the soul of an adherent to an old, tested and anchronistic theme - that of tradition and anti-modernity, that shuns convenience for the sake of purity, honesty and realism, despite the nuisance, work and effort involved. If it's better, then do it. If it makes the result a more soulfull and fulfilling experience, then it's right. It resonates because I have the same feeling for film/darkroom vs digital discs/computer that you have for CDs/LPs - I have some beautiful images on film, transferred into black and white silver halide prints with smelly, disgusting chemicals, sodden paper, hours of imersion in a tiny dark-room with carcinogens abounding, but hang defiantly and translucently, redolent of richness, majesty and realism, on walls in large oak frames, whereas their digital cousins sit anemically, thin, poor, 2-dimensional relatives, devoid of character, soul or life, in file upon file on a hard-drive of a computer, to stir nobody's soul...........but I still persist with digital, hpoing that, for the price of convenience I can conquer the medium. But haven't. Nowhere near. Wont happpen. But that's me creating. Music, I'm not creating. Just reproducing. Is it the same? Is the result similar? Will I hear the difference if you take away all the ritual, philosophy and tradition? That, Nsgarch, is my question, which you cant, and only I, will be able to answer. I asked the same question of myself when I sold my Leicas, 4 X 5 view cameras and 6 X 9, 6 X 6, 6 X 7 medium formats to use a single digital camera to take all their places for the sake of convenience. It failed. Will vinyl go the same route or is it indeed the holy grail?
I'll let you know................ |
Any volunteers, familiar with the Origin live Illustrious tonearm (in a SOTA Sapphire V) willing to help me fine-tune the set-up? If there are such saintly A'goners, please e-mail me your phone number, so that I can call between 7-11 pm tonight. If you are out there, and willing, I will call at a time you choose and promise to ask just 2 questions, for maximum 10 minutes:).
Thanks again for all your help.
Set-up complete, but not fine-tuned. So no comments yet. Starting unpacking 7 pm, finished 12:15 am. Just like joining the army, first day of boot camp. |
Request cancelled. The incredible Lugnut to the rescue. He has sent me photos, a very detailed explanation and a proposed plan of action to fix the VTA. Thank you, Patrick. You are amazing....... |
Wife: "I thought you bought a re-conditioned turntable" "I did" "Then why are you still building it, it's been nearly 7 hours?" "Because I have to get the VTA correct and I cant reach the screw, so I have to put it on blocks" She: "Then will we hear the damn thing play music?" Me: "Blissful music" I get the VTA OK, I think, thanks to Lugnut, then switch it on - no turn. Look closely: the belt has flown off, managed to breach the 1/16th inch clearance between the platter and plinth and is gone, gonzo, disapperaed under the platter. This platter has no guides, rim or anything to hold the 3-4 mm wide tiny belt - did the French design it?
You guys do this for fun? My wife has left (maybe for good after watching my imbecilic performance - especially after she looked at the spanking new EAR 824 and said "What's that new thing?" "That's part of the turntable" Why is it silver and the TT is wood? Wood is boring, so they jazzed it up" That is when she left - I think for a meeting - but maybe to see a Divorce lawyer - watching me fishing with a bent paper-clip for the 3 cent piece of plastic that separates me from blissful sound.........(of course, it only came with one belt)
The EMM pieces are silently staring at me, not having to say "We told you so, you idiot!!!!!!..........." |
So the SOTA got damaged in shipping - motor assembly alignment off, pulley not level, so belt flies off. Both SOTA distributor and dealer very responsive and concerned and will fix it ASAP. But has to be shipped off again. Anyone try to fix a motor assembly themselves? Easy/hard? Meantime, I'm all set with phono stage, used LPs and raring to go. Cant wait more weeks - been about 2 months anyway - so I buy a Thorens 125 MkII with Shure cartridge (Viii) for a song on A'gon to quell the lust. It's playing now. Cripes: Vivid, organic, palpable, compelling, real, Alive!! I'd forgotten how good vinyl is - 14 years dulls the memory. It is just 3D instead of 2D - I guess a perfectly focussed, accurate 2D will always be inferior even to a slightly blurred, 3D picture - to use a visual analogy again. Well, that's what I hear on this 35 year old makeshift turntable arm and cartridge on a $7 piece of magic plastic. I've even temporally forgotten about the pain of the morrow - packing up the heavy SOTA or trying to dissemble and fix it. But the point is that the vinyl in my life has roared back with an impossible-to-ignore statement of intent, presence and even more promise. I owe you all for your encouragement. |
Pat, I'll follow your advice. Sota faxed me a one page instruction page which isn't very helpful - although they did overnight me 2 belts gratis - and I cant reach Kirk as they're moving to WI. Anyone out there re-aligned the motor assembly? |
You ready for this? The Sota Sapphire could not be fixed by me, so I had to ship it back. Kirk Bodinet (the owner) said the motor was so badly mis-aligned during transit that I couldn't have fixed it. After going to all the trouble and reading about the Cosmos, I decided to go for broke, especially since the Digital sound with the EMM gear was so good, and so I ordered a new Sota cosmos in mahogany. It arrived in 3 weeks, 3 days before the stipulated time and looked beautiful. Took forever to mount, because it has 3 pointed feet which have to be balanced by gravity on little shoes and inserted on plates. This is all on a cabinet that requires the wires to be blind elevated 3 feet and caught by a tongs behind the phono preamp. In mounting the armboard, one screw fell into the suspension and required 2 hours of using a headlight and very fine forceps to pull out. Done. Had to change VTA. Move table and 6 feet components to fit on shelf perfectly. Table worked great, vacuum sucked vigorously. Put on first LP - cherished Kleiber Beethoven 5th. Lifted cue device and stylus screeched across LP, audibly straining those Kharma drivers to spine-tingling cacophany............why? Because the tonearm lift device setscrew had gone - disappeared, lost somewhere in the damned space between the armboard and the suspension.Even though I never had cause to touch it. Didnt even know it was there. Called dealer - promptly over-nighted me an M4 secscrew. Didnt fit. far too big. Called OL in England - told "No, yours is the Mk I, it uses an M3, not an M4 - that's the new OL Illustrious arm." A machinist friend, despairing of my plight, cut me 6 M3s today and it fit but wouldnt screw in. Pitch must have been wrong. So I have this gorgeous turntable, unusable wirhout cuing device(because setting it up with wire placement, feet insertion, etc is a 2-3 hour job - and I'm not doing it 4 times - but dangerous to health of LP, stylus and speaker driver health - and now I'm waiting for a one penny M3 with correct pitch to be flown from England first to the dealer and then to me.
Contrast this experience with plug-n-play Digital set-up 10 minutes )and it's a mind-numbing venture in frustration, cursed expletives and questioning of my sanity. But the bright side: The dealer (Jay at Audio Revelation), owner (Kirk Bodinet) and OL's Mark have all been totally responsive, understanding and responsible and shipped me evey missing/broken part over-night at no charge. Lack of support from them would have had me send the whole kaboodle back to England/Chicago/San Diego and happily clasp my CDs to my chest and ears for ever, never to darken my mood again. But having started this quirky journey, it must be finished to determine the final aural result - worth it or not? The only next act in this Russian (actually the Russian input from Sergeui in the form of Indra i/cs has been steadfast througout this play )drama that can occur - and dont think I haven't thought of it - is that the M3 setscrew from OL wont fit because the thread may have been stripped from endless trying wrong-sized 3 and 4 screws, in which case the toneram sans mounted Shelter 901, will be back on its way to California for Jay to figure out.......
You vinyl junkies may regard this all as a day's (actually, 6 weeks) work in the tweaking pleasures in setting up the vinyl miracle maker, but right now I'm ready to jump back into digital and never have a platter, VTA, tonearm or stylus-force guage, 3 mm setcsrew with variable pitch or nuances of setting the variable input EAR 824's mm sized controls at the back of the unit set correctly, darken my listening room doorway ever again...........but, like the obstinate, insane, obdurate soul that both old and determined new vinyl "victims" are, I will see it throgh to the end. But the expected bar of listening reward gets higher with each hitch and had better be sky-high/close to orgiastic after all this...........)
Sorry you asked, Rottenclam?
P.S. Anyone working with a Sota turntable, have a fine mesh net between the working space and the gap between armboard and hole in the side of the plinth to catch errant miscroscopic screws!) And if Jay hadn't been so good, I would tell you to buy your vinyl rig locally and have the dealer get the migraine, chest pain and belly cramps by setting it up in-toto in your house. But that seems against the ethic of vinyl voodoo - the pain is part of the rites.......)
Now the final follow-up will be whether the end justified the perilous journey. |
Jeez, Nrchy, you must be so bored. Fine mesh net? No, I decided to hang the sota from the ceiling from its dainty shoes and install everything upside down and wear a magnetic suit. Fool-proof. And, if the M3 from OL doesnt fit the mashed up (presumably) thread, I'm going to shoot a rivet in.........
any more questions? |
Did I say 824? Must have been a typo. I meant EAR 324. I really do appreciate all the support from all of you in this quest for good vinyl sound. |
OK, so almost 4 months after my initial post, asking for help, it's done. So that you dont have to read the whole 9 yards again, I wanted to achieve sonic "parity" with the EMM set-up on vinyl, starting from scratch. The set up is Kharma 3.2s, Atma-Sphere MP-1, A-S MA 2.2, EMM DCC2, EMM CDSD, PAD Dominus and Stealth Indra i'cs, s/cs and Electraglide UK II PCs - vinyl is Sota Cosmos III with vacuum pump, EAR 324, Shelter 901, OL Illustrious arm.
It now works - all screws found, reattached.
Result: Worth months of chaos, fussing, cursing, fiddling?
Yes. Difference: Vinyl more organic, palpable, visceral, real. The digital is just that few % more sterile - marginal, but factual (to my ears and psyche) Sound as good as EMM? Yes. Better? Yes. Worth the hassle? To me, yes, to my wife (who has an excellent ear)- No, because she doesnt mind listening to music in another room or through a slight, sanitizing, cleaning, but marginally eviscerating filter because of the convenience factor.
So, to those of you wondering whether to go this route if you already have a superb digital set-up (as the EMM undoubtedly is), the answer is: Be prepared to be frustrated, annoyed, irritated and pay 200% attention to tweaks and fiddling, design quirks that need you to be of an engineering mindset, to clean every speck of dust and go through an absurd tedium of adjusting, inspection and manipulation. But if the real thing is what you want - if you want to feel that the music is in your room, do it - if you dont mind the slight filter factor - that's how I can best describe the difference - then don't.
This final follow-up is to thank you all for your input. You are an incredibly helpful lot and I really appreciate the encouragement to pursue this "totally illogical journey" as a normal person like my wife would put it.
But we're not "normal", as anyone who is of a non-audiophile mindset would agree, looking just at the price-tag of a 1 meter set of cable............ |
Thanks Pat & Doug. I hope to delay the upgrade path as long as possible............ |
