I have a nice pair of Proac Studio's in teak that were just professionally reconditioned and still need break in. Won't get any better for soundstage, imagining etc... There is a reason these are so popular for recording studios. feel free to get in touch with me if you want. What price range are you in? |
All of them are decent speakers. Due to the laws of physics you can only get a smaller stand speaker to go just so low. Lot's of designers play games to make you think you are hearing more bass, but the fact remains you can only get just so much out of it. What most do give you is better imaging and sound staging. Proacs of any model will equal or beat nearly any other monitors. This is why they've been around forever and are the top choice for major recording studios/artists for their own useage. They aren't easy to find used for a reason. Like Vandy's the original owners LOVE them and rarely sell them. I'm selling off my three pair ONLY because I fell in love with the new Vandy's and it's a huge step up for me. Selling three full systems to pay for my upgrades so my loss is someone else's gain. I have always liked the ref 3a's, but the Proacs, to me, are more detailed and get the imaging and staging right. The sound doesn't stay inside the speakers. It will emanate from either side of the speakers if you have good amplification. The wavetouch has the Heil air motion mid/tweeter that in past generations has been very fatiguing for many people. I don't know if Wavetouch is using a new design, but I heard a pair a couple of months ago and the top end was very pronounced and the drivers didn't seem to mesh well. There were four of us listening and we all said the same thing. We tried a variety of amps, including tubes. It may have been the room as I know many others love them. I think you need to listen to speakers before purchasing them. That's why I'm selling much of my gear through Johny at Audio Connections in Verona NJ. I just think it's easier to demo speakers with a few different amps or bring in your own. Just a though since you are in NY anyways. |
Must have been the GT's. I don't know how to PM, sorry. It was at a dealer who had them in the store and I asked about them. They weren't for sale as someone just had them there for them to listen to. Maybe they weren't set up properly. That often happens in a dealers showroom as we all know. Also, if they aren't familiar with a speaker, they don't know how to set them up or what goes best with them. |
Alex, I'm truly sorry that I've upset you. I can understand why as you love your product and have passion for it. That's a great thing and something that is missing in society as a whole. I'm sorry that I haven't responded sooner, but I'm traveling for a few weeks and I don't have access daily to a computer and when I do, I'm not always on this site.
I've been posting on various forums for many years and I try not to get into pissing contests since I wouldn't do that in person. Audio is all about opinions and everyone's hearing is completely different. I have found most speakers to be fatiguing after awhile. I have never heard a speaker sound as good in a dealer as I have properly set up in a home. You're an engineer (I'm assuming) and I bet you'd say that is usually the case. I'm human and have prejudices that will most probably affect my thoughts on various components when auditioning or just listening. I HATED a pair of Legacy speakers in a particular store. They were the last gen model. I then heard a pair of newer ones and thought they sounded really nice, but to me, they were still not as good as another pair that costs less. I only mention dealers who are excellent and care. I would also mention a dealer who wasn't good or was rude. I visit many dealers around the world as I travel a lot and I love live music and audio, in that order.
I also have MS and that does affect my short term memory at times. I write down my thoughts on various products, but not all. I will not answer your questions for many reasons, but the biggest reason is that you insinuate that I'm not truthful. By saying NEVER sounding fatiguing, that's not a true statement as any speaker can sound fatiguing to certain people. I have heard people call the Vandy's faguging and I've never heard them that way, even in past generations when I wouldn't never have bought them. There is a reason that there are so many speaker companies around and so many have failed over the years. It's because everyone of us hears differently. I don't know much about your speakers and when set up properly, I'm sure they are wonderful, but I didn't hear them that way.
As for talking about the past, I do that with any speaker I've heard in the past as well as recently. I do that with Proacs and Vandy's too and I have or will own them. To most it's not a big deal as we all know we hear differently. I always tell people to go listen at a dealer they like and trust so they can hear things for themselves. I have found a bunch of guys I like and trust, but Johnny at Audio Connection stands out and I really like his product selection. That's me. I bet there are plenty of audiophiles who have gone into his store and purchased elsewhere for whatever reason. Again, not a big deal.
By reading most of my posts on this board, you can probably figure out that I will speak about fatigue, if a speaker gets out of it's own way, coherency, musicality etc... There are a few things that stand out to me about speakers and I've yet to hear one that does everything great and that includes speakers that I own ,have owned or am going to own. I don't remember the name of most of the people I meet. That includes store owners, unless I purchase from them. There are a few people on this forum who know me personally and know that I'm a good guy and I don't try to hurt people intentionally. I am sorry that I hurt your feelings, but I'm allowed to have an opinion just like anyone else. If anyone just takes any posters word on a product without listening at a dealer themselves, then they are doing themselves a disservice. Since becoming an audiophile in 1971 or so, I've met many in the industry from dealers to reviewers to owners of companies. Tons of the bigger names in audio. I have had many discussions with them and have even called out reviewers to their faces for the games that are played in this industry. Again, people need to listen for themselves and make their own decisions.
I have not made any personal attacks against you or your company and as a retired Navy officer, my integrity is important to me. There are plenty of speakers I've listened to in the past year that I HATED and if the name gets brought up in a thread, I'll possibly share my feelings on them if I fully remember. Heck, I have heard the same Ayre amp that I recently purchased, sound average in a store. It's because they weren't using the balanced cables. I also didn't love any of the three speakers they ran it with, but one of the speakers I heard sounded better than it did at two other stores, so I gave the amp another listen at a dealer I'm now doing business with. This is a true story and I didn't mention the dealers as it doesn't matter to me. What matters are the components. When you said your speaker wasn't set up correctly, I agreed that you were probably correct. Again, I'm not cutting your speaker down at all.
I am not going to sit here and answer your specific questions as I wouldn't even remember the faces of any of the folks and that includes the guy who works at the store and I spent a lot of time with him. This is an open forum and you can attack my credibility all you want, but I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about my honesty. Alex, I really am sorry that I hurt your feelings as this is the first time I've ever not enjoyed audio. Now I really do want to hear your speakers in the proper set up. If I get that chance, I will give them a long listen and will share all thoughts as I will make many notes etc... Pete |
Wow, what a rude person and response. 90% or more of the
folks on here speak highly of their systems that they own or
are about to own. I guess I do the same. I also talk about
some products I hear along the way that I also like.
Sneaking and untruthful? Really? You can try and turn my
words into anything you want to. Bottom line is that when I
heard a pair of your speakers, they didn't do it for me. I
have no excuses for you Alex, nor would I or should I. I
put out an olive branch and you just stomped on it.
You obviously had plenty of time as you responded a few
times to my posts. How's that for using your words against
you? Sorry that my opinion doesn't count and yours does.
What a way to run a business Alex. I honestly don't
understand what your motive is other than to try and
discredit my thoughts by calling me a liar. You obviously
have no idea who I am. Since this is the first time I've
been called a liar in ages (don't remember another time
since I've been an adult)it took me off guard, lol.
I love and will always love music and the equipment it's
played on. What I don't' like are people who make any
product and tell everyone else that if you find anything
wrong with it, that you are wrong and a liar. Basically,
this thread is a microcosm of the world of audio. It's all
about personal preference and choices. That's why there are
SOOOO many speaker companies and why so many go out of
business after ten or so years.
Nearly everyone I've ever met who have heard my system or
Quicksilver with Proacs have loved them. They talk about
the speakers not being in the room. That said, not everyone
says that. I've heard two people say that the sound just
stays in between the speakers. Guess what Alex? Both are
correct because it's what they heard. How can you ever make
a statement that your speakers NEVER sound a certain way ( I
forget the exact words you used, so I won't put in the whole
phrase)? Never means for everyone regardless of their
hearing situation, the room (a room will play in part of
what anyone hears unless you are using headphones, right?),
etc....
Sorry, but you have just come off as a rude and angry man
and should probably have just accepted my apology and moved
on.
With all the time I've spent in this industry and with all
the people I've worked or associated myself with, you take
the cake with your responses. You have every right to think
what you want of me, but as Mom always said, if you don't
have something nice to say about someone, then don't say
anything....unless they come at you first. ;)
I really hope that you treat your paying customers better
than you treat strangers. |
Floor standing aren't aways better. It completely depends on the speaker. I have heard tons of monitors sound better than their floorstanding brethren. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will say that. I do like full range better, but floorstanding doesn't mean full range either. There can be many trade offs by adding the much more baffle. Just ask any speaker designer. There is a designer in this thread who has only monitors (I think he only has stand mounted). I'd honestly would love to hear his take on this as there must be a reason he went that route. |
I have always liked the Harbeth's better than Spendors too, but I liked the Proac's better for their soundstaging. That said, I haven't heard the newer Harbeths, but I would probably like them better as they are more musical from what I understand. Wish I could hear them myself. I may try to check them out, but I would be shocked if they beat the Vandy's. I have been blown away by the systems that Johnny at Audio Connection has put together with that line. Yogi, did you get rid of the Vandy's for the harbeths? |
Interesting. I hated the older Vandersteens. the new ones are SOOO different. I just got the Treo's as they were so much nicer than the Spendor's I heard as well as Proac's etc... I think if you heard them, you'd find them MUCH better. totally different speaker. Their midrange is the best I've heard at any level so far. |
Ivan, I'm glad that you have had a such a great experience. I didn't. I even said that maybe things weren't up to speed, but he called me out as a liar on multiple occasions. Even though he believes that, he never should have done that as he doesn't know me from Adam. He has no idea who I know etc... It was just strange to have him react to me the way he did and then not apologize. I'm fine with my posts as I know who and what I am. He thinks I'm a shill for Vany and Audio Connections, which isn't even close. I mention them because of my great experiences. Jonny at AC is known very well on this board and is known for helping those who haven't even purchased from him. He acts with respect which is somee thing that Alex doesn't seem capable of doing. It's his loss too as a couple of posters sent me messages about this flare up and said they'd never buy from him after the way he reacted towards me. Again, you can't act like that and expect to grow a business. What owners fail to understand is that not all their customers or prospective custmers are so loyal that they share everything they do. I too will bring in my components to local stores to hear how they sound with or against other stuff. That's how you figure out what to purchase in the future isn't it?
Ivan, I'm glad that the speakers finally broke in for you and that you love them. I hope that you keep them for a long time and enjoy. I'm also glad that Alex treated you with respect. I wonder if he would have if you posted anything that wasn't glowing about his speakers. No biggie either way. I have purchased the Vandy Treo's and will get the AQ cables from JOnny at Audio Connection because he was so good with me. I think most audiophiles are loyal, but I saw what Jon did for people on this board and I knew he was a good guy who loved audio. I wish that Alex was nicer to me. It's his loss though. Sorry, didn't want to go there, but I guess it brought up a sore spot since he never apologized for calling me a liar even though I was nice to him and gave him an out on a couple of occasions. Again Ivan that's cool that you decided to stay with them and even looked at other components to try and make them work. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through, but we've all been there before .....more times than we wish, lol. |
It's all good John. Sorry bout my post. I don't know why, but that's the first bad experience I've ever had with a dealer or company in audio ever. Crazy as that seems, As long as you got what you paid for and expected, it's all good. I really like these forums. Since I'm so opinionated, I probably piss plenty of folks off in my posts, lol. It comes experience I guess, lol. |
So did you ever get the Vapors? What are your thoughts? there are a ton of speakers using the RAAL tweeter and the accuton mid/sub's. So far, I haven't heard any of them integrated that well. They have all been say too analytical for me. Just not music like what I hear live. Even some of the esoteric stuff I've heard haven't done of for me, but that's just me.
NY, if you got them, what are you running them with? What's the rest of the system you ended up with? Thanks..looking forward to hearing from you. |
I heard the Paradigm S8's with Ayre and they were nice. I have the small ones in my BR system and they are ok. I have the two pair or Proacs I'm selling and have enjoyed them, but like anything they need to be set up with the right system, but man do they disappear. (anyone want floor or stand mounted proacs, lol). The Spendors and Harbeths that I've heard have great mids and all, but I haven't heard them throw a soundstage like I'm used to. I'd really like to hear the new ones set up properly as I hear so much about them.
I think that I haven't heard them with the right electronics and all |
Limo, sorry, I have the small 300 ones in my bedroom system. Interesting thread. I thought it was going to die after milhorn called me a liar, lol.... |
Milhorn you've already made a fool of yourself in your rude responses to my posts. You can try and twist words as much as you want or quote or do whatever you want, but in the end, you looked very foolish in your posts in this thread. You really should have stopped while you were behind. This irony is that you lost the chance at a few sales based on some emails people sent me offline about how they'd never buy from a start up company who's owner posted such rude and uncalled for comments. I'm very happy that one of the posters like your speaker after it's been broken in for a very long time.
Since you call your speaker the most beautiful sounding speaker in the world, you should send me a pair and I'll get a few of the posters from this board from NY/NJ/Ct area come to a store and we'll do a shoot out with not just Vandersteen, as I posted about, but also 4 or so other brands. Since everyone has different ears and likes different speakers we can see if everyone agrees in what you are selling. Want to put your money where your mouth is? Seriously, you can be there too obviously and we could even set it all up with a black sheet etc... so it's done properly. Now THAT would be something that folks would love to do I bet.
Any takers? You may just make a believer out of me and some others. If not, give it up already please.
Staying on topic NY, which speakers are on your short list so far and why? Keep in mind your system and especially your room. As anyone realizes the room is HUGE no matter what one or two folks may say as there are always going to be reflections and scattering of sound that will hit your ear at different times that can smear and do other nasty things that will ruin your sound. Bass especially. |
Interesting speakers Duke. Let us know if you are ever near CT/NY/NJ. I'd love to give them a listen. Also like to know about new products. I don't think he's really looking as he's had this thread for a long time. If it was price and imaging/soundstaging etc... he would have probably found his speakers already. It's become an interesting (in more ways than one, lol) and fun thread reading about what speakers posters have or want to have. Since audio is all personal and this area of product is so competitive, there are so many options.
There seem to be a ton of new companies starting up, which I find interesting since higher end, 2channel audio is shrinking. Or is it? I am learning a ton by selling off my vintage systems. Folks playing in this level (>1k per pair) want speakers that disappear OR speakers that get the mids right. There are too many trade offs for the most part. I find it's been easier to sell my Proac Studio monitors than it has been trying to sell off my Super Towers. The prices are within a few hundred and the sound of the Towers gives legit bass to 30k in a good room. That's rare and it still disappears. It's also tipped up a spec on the top end if you don't use the right components (like many speakers in this range as it sells).
Just stating what I've run across as it's pretty interesting. I offered NY to go over to Audio Connections in NJ to even listen to the Proac's buy he never got back to me on it.
Lastly, what is the price range of your 'house speakers'? When you voiced them, what electronics and cables did you use? Thanks. |
Milhorn, just go away please. You've embarrassed yourself enough. I threw you an olive branch and you didn't take it. I honestly don't care what you said after you called me untruthful. Anything after that just goes in one ear and out the other. I've gotten correspondence from more than a few folks who were in shock over your rude words. Thanks but no thanks on your offer. I can get plenty of manufacturers to send their products if I put it on my card. I have no desire to do business with you. I was willing to help you by having a brick and mortar store do the testing with various top end cables adn electronics. That way anyone could have shown up.
Enough about you.
Duke, sorry about that, lol. I wish you well in your venture. It's refreshing to hear how you design your speakers. I also like your website. As for speaker cables, the interaction seems to be minimal, but they all sound soooo different and the most expensive, even in some lines, don't always sound best with a specific speaker.
I realize that some folks have this falicy about stand mount speakers are the best for imagining, but as we all know, that's not always the case. most of the top designers have found ways around that. Realistic soundstaging is the most important thing. Often times speakers sound 'bigger' than what was put down on tape (if that's what they used to record). Any good speaker will be able to throw a true soundstage no matter how big it may be. I've yet to hear a Proac or most of the exotics I've heard have a problem with a real soundstage.
NY, are you open to a floorstanding that has the same footprint as a stand mount? |
