Need suggestions on bookshelf speaker upgrades

I have the delco 65 recv with 2 lsa statement speakers...looking to keep this recv...and sell the ref speakers for better bookshelves..i am looking for a sound experience that makes it seem like im in a live concert..imaging crucial
I have a nice pair of Proac Studio's in teak that were just professionally reconditioned and still need break in. Won't get any better for soundstage, imagining etc... There is a reason these are so popular for recording studios. feel free to get in touch with me if you want. What price range are you in?
Also try Wavetouch Audio's Mount Rainer monitors. List price is $3k, but I think you may still be able to get them at his special price this month for $800/pair. They, along with the Grand Tetons (similar WTA monitors) have been singled out for having an extremely coherent stage, very high resolution and good macro and microdynamics. Nice bass too, but you may want a sub or 2 in the long run.
What didn't you like about the LSA's?
JBL 4912 is hard to beat at any price point. Restored ones will run in $6...700.
lsa statement were quite good, just want better imaging..i thought the revel new bookshelves has better imaging..
What do you mean by "imaging". That each instrument has a definite place in the soundfield? From your description above, it seems you want a live experience, which to me means a system that lets you forget the sound is being reproduced electronically. If that's the case, your electronics may well be the culprit. It's hard to find stuff that doesn't constantly remind you that you're listening to the stereo.
position and room are the best friends of imaging. bookshelves have certain limitations, but some advantages as well.
are you shelving your speakers or placing them on the stands?
I've been auditioning bookshelf speakers lately including Proac 1sc, LSA statements and a few others and I settled on a pair of Soundfield Audio Monitor 1's. Active 8" woofer coupled with passive 5.5 coaxial mid/tweeter. These are true full range bookshelf speakers.
my speakers are on considering some options...ref 3a del capo, carbon speakers fritz, wavetouch technology, vapor audio stiff breeze..thoughts...
All of them are decent speakers. Due to the laws of physics you can only get a smaller stand speaker to go just so low. Lot's of designers play games to make you think you are hearing more bass, but the fact remains you can only get just so much out of it. What most do give you is better imaging and sound staging. Proacs of any model will equal or beat nearly any other monitors. This is why they've been around forever and are the top choice for major recording studios/artists for their own useage. They aren't easy to find used for a reason. Like Vandy's the original owners LOVE them and rarely sell them. I'm selling off my three pair ONLY because I fell in love with the new Vandy's and it's a huge step up for me. Selling three full systems to pay for my upgrades so my loss is someone else's gain. I have always liked the ref 3a's, but the Proacs, to me, are more detailed and get the imaging and staging right. The sound doesn't stay inside the speakers. It will emanate from either side of the speakers if you have good amplification. The wavetouch has the Heil air motion mid/tweeter that in past generations has been very fatiguing for many people. I don't know if Wavetouch is using a new design, but I heard a pair a couple of months ago and the top end was very pronounced and the drivers didn't seem to mesh well. There were four of us listening and we all said the same thing. We tried a variety of amps, including tubes. It may have been the room as I know many others love them. I think you need to listen to speakers before purchasing them. That's why I'm selling much of my gear through Johny at Audio Connections in Verona NJ. I just think it's easier to demo speakers with a few different amps or bring in your own. Just a though since you are in NY anyways.
Here is an excerpt from Part Audiophile in regards to the SF Monitor 1:

AJ specs the Monitor 1 to 38Hz, but check out the in room response he was getting at AXPONA! He measured seven different seats in two rows to generate the average responses and graphed ‘em all for us. What’s the bottom line (as it were)? It’s 10dB down at 20Hz and flat to 30dB.

I will also add that I have a pair of Speaker Art Super Clef's and compared them side by side with my Proac Response 2.5's. the Clefs Bass performance was equal to or better than the Proac's which quickly went up for sale. Having said that I agree with Ctsooner's comments about the imaging and staging of Proac's.

They are some of the best I have heard in that regard and the Super Clef's are neck in neck with them but It took the right amp to get the best out of them.
Hi Ctsooner,

Wavetouch is using a new design, but I heard a pair a couple of months ago and the top end was very pronounced and the drivers didn't seem to mesh well. There were four of us listening and we all said the same thing. We tried a variety of amps, including tubes. It may have been the room

Which model was it? Was it tri-angular speaker (Mt. Rainier) or rectangle box speaker (Grand Teton)? The room can't interact with Wavetouch speakers like that. The sound pressure level of individual drivers can be adjusted in 2 seconds without hassle. The owner of Wavetouch speakers must know that. We communicate with every Wavetouch speaker owners. Any complaint like that can't be existed.

Please PM to me. I don't want to mess up a good thread.

Alex / Wavetouch
Must have been the GT's. I don't know how to PM, sorry. It was at a dealer who had them in the store and I asked about them. They weren't for sale as someone just had them there for them to listen to. Maybe they weren't set up properly. That often happens in a dealers showroom as we all know. Also, if they aren't familiar with a speaker, they don't know how to set them up or what goes best with them.
Dear Ctsooner,
As you know if you claim any product and brand name badly, you must provide a credibility. Please provide details to support your claim such as a store name, who were there, what kind of music playing, equipments, etc.
any feedback on fritz speakers
There is plenty of info on the forums.
Hi Ctsooner,
If you talk badly about any product and brand, you need to show evidences to support your claim. Who were those 4 people? What is the name of store?, What music was playing? What brand and model amps did you use? You mentioned "tried variety of amps, including tubes."

The wavetouch has the Heil air motion mid/tweeter that in past generations has been very fatiguing for many people.
Why do you talk about past when you've heard it. That sounds like you are not truthful. Also, Wavetouch speaker doesn't sound fatiguing. Never! That's where your statement is not credible.

What color horns were on Wavetouch speakers? Tweeter and woofer color? If you spent time like that, you will remember the color of horns. My horn colors are hard to forget. I can find who the owner of speaker is.

Alex/Wavetouch Audio
Alex, I'm truly sorry that I've upset you. I can understand why as you love your product and have passion for it. That's a great thing and something that is missing in society as a whole. I'm sorry that I haven't responded sooner, but I'm traveling for a few weeks and I don't have access daily to a computer and when I do, I'm not always on this site.

I've been posting on various forums for many years and I try not to get into pissing contests since I wouldn't do that in person. Audio is all about opinions and everyone's hearing is completely different. I have found most speakers to be fatiguing after awhile. I have never heard a speaker sound as good in a dealer as I have properly set up in a home. You're an engineer (I'm assuming) and I bet you'd say that is usually the case. I'm human and have prejudices that will most probably affect my thoughts on various components when auditioning or just listening. I HATED a pair of Legacy speakers in a particular store. They were the last gen model. I then heard a pair of newer ones and thought they sounded really nice, but to me, they were still not as good as another pair that costs less. I only mention dealers who are excellent and care. I would also mention a dealer who wasn't good or was rude. I visit many dealers around the world as I travel a lot and I love live music and audio, in that order.

I also have MS and that does affect my short term memory at times. I write down my thoughts on various products, but not all. I will not answer your questions for many reasons, but the biggest reason is that you insinuate that I'm not truthful. By saying NEVER sounding fatiguing, that's not a true statement as any speaker can sound fatiguing to certain people. I have heard people call the Vandy's faguging and I've never heard them that way, even in past generations when I wouldn't never have bought them. There is a reason that there are so many speaker companies around and so many have failed over the years. It's because everyone of us hears differently. I don't know much about your speakers and when set up properly, I'm sure they are wonderful, but I didn't hear them that way.

As for talking about the past, I do that with any speaker I've heard in the past as well as recently. I do that with Proacs and Vandy's too and I have or will own them. To most it's not a big deal as we all know we hear differently. I always tell people to go listen at a dealer they like and trust so they can hear things for themselves. I have found a bunch of guys I like and trust, but Johnny at Audio Connection stands out and I really like his product selection. That's me. I bet there are plenty of audiophiles who have gone into his store and purchased elsewhere for whatever reason. Again, not a big deal.

By reading most of my posts on this board, you can probably figure out that I will speak about fatigue, if a speaker gets out of it's own way, coherency, musicality etc... There are a few things that stand out to me about speakers and I've yet to hear one that does everything great and that includes speakers that I own ,have owned or am going to own. I don't remember the name of most of the people I meet. That includes store owners, unless I purchase from them. There are a few people on this forum who know me personally and know that I'm a good guy and I don't try to hurt people intentionally. I am sorry that I hurt your feelings, but I'm allowed to have an opinion just like anyone else. If anyone just takes any posters word on a product without listening at a dealer themselves, then they are doing themselves a disservice. Since becoming an audiophile in 1971 or so, I've met many in the industry from dealers to reviewers to owners of companies. Tons of the bigger names in audio. I have had many discussions with them and have even called out reviewers to their faces for the games that are played in this industry. Again, people need to listen for themselves and make their own decisions.

I have not made any personal attacks against you or your company and as a retired Navy officer, my integrity is important to me. There are plenty of speakers I've listened to in the past year that I HATED and if the name gets brought up in a thread, I'll possibly share my feelings on them if I fully remember. Heck, I have heard the same Ayre amp that I recently purchased, sound average in a store. It's because they weren't using the balanced cables. I also didn't love any of the three speakers they ran it with, but one of the speakers I heard sounded better than it did at two other stores, so I gave the amp another listen at a dealer I'm now doing business with. This is a true story and I didn't mention the dealers as it doesn't matter to me. What matters are the components. When you said your speaker wasn't set up correctly, I agreed that you were probably correct. Again, I'm not cutting your speaker down at all.

I am not going to sit here and answer your specific questions as I wouldn't even remember the faces of any of the folks and that includes the guy who works at the store and I spent a lot of time with him. This is an open forum and you can attack my credibility all you want, but I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about my honesty. Alex, I really am sorry that I hurt your feelings as this is the first time I've ever not enjoyed audio. Now I really do want to hear your speakers in the proper set up. If I get that chance, I will give them a long listen and will share all thoughts as I will make many notes etc... Pete
On March 21, you said "Maybe they weren't set up properly." I didn't say "set up is wrong." Don't you remember what you wrote? Now you saying
" When you said your speaker wasn't set up correctly, I agreed that you were probably correct. Again, I'm not cutting your speaker down at all."
You are sneaky and untruthful!

Again all you did is Vandy and AC advertising.

Pete, I don't need your excuse anymore. I and my speakers are doing fine. I don't have a time for this.

Wavetouch Audio
Wow, what a rude person and response. 90% or more of the
folks on here speak highly of their systems that they own or
are about to own. I guess I do the same. I also talk about
some products I hear along the way that I also like.
Sneaking and untruthful? Really? You can try and turn my
words into anything you want to. Bottom line is that when I
heard a pair of your speakers, they didn't do it for me. I
have no excuses for you Alex, nor would I or should I. I
put out an olive branch and you just stomped on it.

You obviously had plenty of time as you responded a few
times to my posts. How's that for using your words against
you? Sorry that my opinion doesn't count and yours does.
What a way to run a business Alex. I honestly don't
understand what your motive is other than to try and
discredit my thoughts by calling me a liar. You obviously
have no idea who I am. Since this is the first time I've
been called a liar in ages (don't remember another time
since I've been an adult)it took me off guard, lol.

I love and will always love music and the equipment it's
played on. What I don't' like are people who make any
product and tell everyone else that if you find anything
wrong with it, that you are wrong and a liar. Basically,
this thread is a microcosm of the world of audio. It's all
about personal preference and choices. That's why there are
SOOOO many speaker companies and why so many go out of
business after ten or so years.

Nearly everyone I've ever met who have heard my system or
Quicksilver with Proacs have loved them. They talk about
the speakers not being in the room. That said, not everyone
says that. I've heard two people say that the sound just
stays in between the speakers. Guess what Alex? Both are
correct because it's what they heard. How can you ever make
a statement that your speakers NEVER sound a certain way ( I
forget the exact words you used, so I won't put in the whole
phrase)? Never means for everyone regardless of their
hearing situation, the room (a room will play in part of
what anyone hears unless you are using headphones, right?),

Sorry, but you have just come off as a rude and angry man
and should probably have just accepted my apology and moved

With all the time I've spent in this industry and with all
the people I've worked or associated myself with, you take
the cake with your responses. You have every right to think
what you want of me, but as Mom always said, if you don't
have something nice to say about someone, then don't say
anything....unless they come at you first. ;)

I really hope that you treat your paying customers better
than you treat strangers.
Gentlemen can we please get the thread back on track. All this bantering does not help the Op with his search for speakers. Alex I have heard many good things about your speakers I'm not sure why you are taking ctsooner's comments to heart. I have heard many speakers that I would have never have owned had I not had a chance to listen to them set up properly. We are all entitled to our opinions on here. Let's move the thread forward or move on entirely.
stay on tpoic, thinking the best bang for the buck and it isnt even close is vapor sound stiff breeze
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the Vapor's.
Nyaudio98, you started this same thread last year and ended it as Vapor being the best. Looks a little suspicious. Even your previous answers pride Vapor.
Upgrade to a good floor staining speaker always better!!
Google search turns up nothing on a "Delco 65 recv" (receiver, I assume)?

Hard to say anything meaningful without knowing what will be driving things.

I'm assuming this is not the old GM DElco car audio stuff, right?
I'm assuming Peachtree decco 65?
Upgrade to floor standing!! HELLO!!
Floor standing aren't aways better. It completely depends on the speaker. I have heard tons of monitors sound better than their floorstanding brethren. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will say that. I do like full range better, but floorstanding doesn't mean full range either. There can be many trade offs by adding the much more baffle. Just ask any speaker designer. There is a designer in this thread who has only monitors (I think he only has stand mounted). I'd honestly would love to hear his take on this as there must be a reason he went that route.
Get yourself a pair of Harbeth P3ESR'S and it will be the last stand mount you will ever buy!
I've always wanted to audition Harbeth's. Sadly no dealers in my area. Yogiboy have you compared them to the likes of Spendor or Proac?
Chrshan137,I was a Spendor guy for about 15 years(before that Vandersteens).I had the 3/5,3'5r,SAI and the S8e (floor stander). I have the Harbeth's almost two years and they still amaze me every time I listen to them. My friend who has the Spendors came up to my house to give a listen and just ordered a pair. Don't get me wrong the Spendors are a great speaker but the Harbeths just do it better!
Might have to ad a pair to my growing collection of standmounts!
I have always liked the Harbeth's better than Spendors too, but I liked the Proac's better for their soundstaging. That said, I haven't heard the newer Harbeths, but I would probably like them better as they are more musical from what I understand. Wish I could hear them myself. I may try to check them out, but I would be shocked if they beat the Vandy's. I have been blown away by the systems that Johnny at Audio Connection has put together with that line. Yogi, did you get rid of the Vandy's for the harbeths?
Ctsooner,I gave up on the Vandersteens about 15 years ago for
Spendors. As a matter of fact it was John at Audio Connection
who loaned me a pair of Spendors to try. I went over to
Harbeths about two years ago. I don't live in that area
anymore so when I make a purchase it's on line and I just keep
my fingers crossed that I like what I buy.
Interesting. I hated the older Vandersteens. the new ones are SOOO different. I just got the Treo's as they were so much nicer than the Spendor's I heard as well as Proac's etc... I think if you heard them, you'd find them MUCH better. totally different speaker. Their midrange is the best I've heard at any level so far.
Hi Pete. I just now revisited this thread after having first posted about the Mt Rainiers. Was quite surprised to see the flap between you and Alex...(!) I know, I know, we all want to keep this thread on track - I apologize in advance for bringing this back up. But, the whole reason I was motivated to repost here was that I have very recently tried out a pair of Grand Teton's that I bought from Alex that I've been listening to for about 3 weeks now. When I first hooked them up (to an amplifier that is ALSO brand new), the sound was rather glary. I recalled a post somewhere that said that goes away in about 3 days and after that "...all they did was make music". The glare did indeed go away. But, there was far from music thereafter. Alex told me in an email that they sound good out of the box, but continue to improve for up to a month or so. But, after the glare had faded, for me there was still a hardness to the sound...actually everything above 3khz was downright 'zippy' - detailed, but too hyper-detailed, the dynamics (macro & micro) still seemed restrained and there were audible tonal distortions in the midrange...almost like the beginnings of cone breakup, particularly at volume. Ok, so either the new amp or the new speakers were to blame...just a matter of giving it a few days to see in what direction things would begin to change if break-in was the factor. But, as it turns out, the break-in of these speakers proved to be so long and drawn out and so obstinate were they in showing even the slightest sign of coming out of their shells that it seems they had me fully convinced that I had made the wrong choice of amplifier from the start! 2 weeks of listening yielded what seemed like no appreciable change. After that (about 5 or 6 days ago) I quit listening and entered into full online research mode. I finally identified what was likely the best new amp candidate - more expensive than I wanted, but at least I had one nailed down (just not yet purchased). Then, yesterday I decided to reconfirm my listening impressions. Lo and behold, somehow things had decidedly begun to change...and very much for the better. There was now air, HF extension, separation (even very good signs of resolution), dynamics have greatly improved (still a little ways to go yet) and that hardness and zippiness? NOW these speakers finally sound to me like the word "lush" is indeed in their vocabulary. And, for me THAT was the moment the subjective impression of driver disintegration completely melted away. There is a fair amount of hype surrounding these speakers, but I can now honestly say that I'm fast becoming convinced of it for myself. The one aspect that grabbed me from the word go with these speakers is, hands down, their imaging - right out of the box. These things DO image like nobody's business - even with modest gear. They knocked a hole in my front wall big enough to drive a truck through. My previous speakers (3-way towers) had a just slightly wider stage, but not anywhere nearly this deep or layered! And placement within the stage is marvelous. It's uncanny how they do this.

I can't make out, from the above, exactly what Alex suspects that you did that made him so upset. In his dealings with me has never done anything like that, of course, and with me he has always gone the extra mile. I suspect he may simply have gotten his wires crossed somehow (I know myself it's easy enough to do online sometimes), but unless he posts further, it's unclear to me. (I myself could find no reason to not take everything that you, Pete, said back to him at face value, FWIW to anyone).

But, like I said, the fact that I've found the GT's to indeed image so incredibly well AND that they do (finally) seem to be so smooth and non-fatiguing (at least to me) is why I decided to post again. But, it seems to me, that if you ever audition a pair, you should try to ascertain if they are fully broken in. I suspect these things may need to be played just about every day and at levels loud enough to give them a good, solid workout for at least a month...possibly even longer. Just my 2 cents. Cheers to everybody and thanks to Alex!
Ivan, I'm glad that you have had a such a great experience. I didn't. I even said that maybe things weren't up to speed, but he called me out as a liar on multiple occasions. Even though he believes that, he never should have done that as he doesn't know me from Adam. He has no idea who I know etc... It was just strange to have him react to me the way he did and then not apologize. I'm fine with my posts as I know who and what I am. He thinks I'm a shill for Vany and Audio Connections, which isn't even close. I mention them because of my great experiences. Jonny at AC is known very well on this board and is known for helping those who haven't even purchased from him. He acts with respect which is somee thing that Alex doesn't seem capable of doing. It's his loss too as a couple of posters sent me messages about this flare up and said they'd never buy from him after the way he reacted towards me. Again, you can't act like that and expect to grow a business. What owners fail to understand is that not all their customers or prospective custmers are so loyal that they share everything they do. I too will bring in my components to local stores to hear how they sound with or against other stuff. That's how you figure out what to purchase in the future isn't it?

Ivan, I'm glad that the speakers finally broke in for you and that you love them. I hope that you keep them for a long time and enjoy. I'm also glad that Alex treated you with respect. I wonder if he would have if you posted anything that wasn't glowing about his speakers. No biggie either way. I have purchased the Vandy Treo's and will get the AQ cables from JOnny at Audio Connection because he was so good with me. I think most audiophiles are loyal, but I saw what Jon did for people on this board and I knew he was a good guy who loved audio. I wish that Alex was nicer to me. It's his loss though. Sorry, didn't want to go there, but I guess it brought up a sore spot since he never apologized for calling me a liar even though I was nice to him and gave him an out on a couple of occasions. Again Ivan that's cool that you decided to stay with them and even looked at other components to try and make them work. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through, but we've all been there before .....more times than we wish, lol.
S'cool. Wish you the best of luck in the future..particularly since it looks like you didn't get the fair shake (for whatever reason) I would think you deserved.

It's all good John. Sorry bout my post. I don't know why, but that's the first bad experience I've ever had with a dealer or company in audio ever. Crazy as that seems, As long as you got what you paid for and expected, it's all good. I really like these forums. Since I'm so opinionated, I probably piss plenty of folks off in my posts, lol. It comes experience I guess, lol.
No worries! :) I like these forums, too. Keep right on truckin'.
So did you ever get the Vapors? What are your thoughts? there are a ton of speakers using the RAAL tweeter and the accuton mid/sub's. So far, I haven't heard any of them integrated that well. They have all been say too analytical for me. Just not music like what I hear live. Even some of the esoteric stuff I've heard haven't done of for me, but that's just me.

NY, if you got them, what are you running them with? What's the rest of the system you ended up with? Thanks..looking forward to hearing from you.
Wow, that right there caused me to not support Wavetouch. Just my 2 cents, just my oppinion. Thats too bad.

Cstooner, well said.

I've liked everything from Vapor Audio I heard, and Spendors and Harbeths are supposed to be good also. Add pro ac to the list too.

Just picked up some Paradigm Sig 2's V.3 with Berrylium tweeters and i'm really liking what I'm hearing :)

Was looking at the Ref. De Capos with beryllium tweets also...
I heard the Paradigm S8's with Ayre and they were nice. I have the small ones in my BR system and they are ok. I have the two pair or Proacs I'm selling and have enjoyed them, but like anything they need to be set up with the right system, but man do they disappear. (anyone want floor or stand mounted proacs, lol). The Spendors and Harbeths that I've heard have great mids and all, but I haven't heard them throw a soundstage like I'm used to. I'd really like to hear the new ones set up properly as I hear so much about them.

I think that I haven't heard them with the right electronics and all
Ct, which smsll ones do you have. Sig 1's? 2's? And which version? I've been listening to my new (used) Sig. 2's V.3 with the beryllium tweets and they are absolutely fabulous!
I liked the Paradigm S2's whenever i've heard them, but the price increases over the years (that goes for most brands anyways) kinda made me forget about them. Do wavetouch speakers look normal in person? Online they look like penaudio speakers with a cereal bowl and sharpie stuck on with some fishing wire. Vapor audio gets brought up a lot here, and I am curious about them, but i've read too many posts that read like adverts.
i havent done anything..i still have the lsa statements with peachttree decco 65..the entire system and cable ran me 4k..
de capos r like 3 grand
Limo, sorry, I have the small 300 ones in my bedroom system. Interesting thread. I thought it was going to die after milhorn called me a liar, lol....
3/25 Ctsooner:
When you said your speaker wasn't set up correctly, I agreed that you were probably correct.
I didn’t say "my speaker is not set up correctly?" It’s your words on 3/21.