ZU Gede are just that but seldom come up on here.
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What leads you to believe that getting new cables will fix your problem?
"I'm looking for warmer, lusher, more romantic, "gold" type of sound - interconnects...
It seems to me my system is a little bit too detailed and precise."
I think you're asking a bit too much here. If it were me, I would get rid of the component(s) that are the source of the problem. New cables, in your case, is a band-aid fix. Fix it right the first time and move on.
Thank you all for your help.
Mapman - Setup is :
Silverline Sinfonia speakers (heavily modified)
320/520 B XLS single-ended amps (for powering up from 80 Hz)
Rythmik-Audio 15" subs X 2,Rythmik-Audio bass amplifiers X 4
Quad CDP-2 (soon to be changed), Promitheus copper TVC.
GG Revelation (Quad -> TVC), Silnote Poseidon Signature (TVC -> 320B amps),Nordost Valhalla (double run) speaker cable.
SE tube amps are wired with silver/gold Mundorf wire.
Speed, clarity, transparency,details - it's amazing..
Zd542 - This is more a "personal preference" than a problem.
I agree with your logic, cables are not for fixing problems. What led me to this thinking, is the result I got with changing from copper ICs to GG wire few years ago.
I will change from Quad+TVC to Sabre custom-made DAC. Sabre is very strong on details, speed - which my system already has in spades.So I'm more concerned when that change happens, not to further speed up and "cold" the sound.
Also, speakers will be placed on Aurios Pro soon, which could also result in a similar change in sound.
What about Jade cables? Anyone had some experience with them?So far, I've heard only good things :)
I owned the Valhalla loudspeaker cable for over 12 years of time. When it came out it was for some years the reference in loudspeakercables. Based on speed and resolution.
But all tests with 100% Valhalla were all dissapointing. Because essential parts were missing for the absolute sound. These days there are more cables who surpass the quality easilly. Time and technique go on.
At the end all parts togheter of your set create the overwhole sound including your room.
We compared the Valhalla loudspeakercable wih the Cardas Golden reference in the past. Maybe it sounds warmer overwhole. I remember the faces of the people who owned the Golden Reference. The Valhalla had so much more details and separation. After this test they put there Golden Reference for sale.
Warmer sound with cables is possible, but you will loose in other parts.
I think you need to look for newer cables with newer techniques.
good luck testing.
Contact Eric Love at Fusion Audio on his Romance ic. Based on your
system, the gear you have, and the sound you desire the
Romance ic's are definitely ideal for you. I have no doubt you will be greatly
They deliver exactly what you are after and will compliment your already
well assembled system with utter synergy.
I no longer use this ic, but owned it for years, very special and more
importantly perfect for you. He will most likely let you try it.
So it looks to me as if you are seeking a warm interconnect to tame some of the brightness of the Nordost Valhalla speaker cables.
Yes, Jade cables are warm and sweet, and would definitely help. So would replacing the Nordost Valhalla with just about any other speaker cable.
Audioquest, Acoustic Zen, Harmonic Technology, Cardas, Kubala Sosna, Tara Labs, really, just about any other brand will sound less thin and etched than the Nordost Valhalla. The Valhalla will work fine in systems that are a bit too warm and slow, but you don't seem to need the Valhalla's.
Not overly warm but having great musicality I can whole heartedly recommend Antipodes cables. I don't have their latest cables which I was told is less laid back than the previous version, but regardless, I dont think these cables get the credit they deserve. I had MIT, ridge street audio, nordost, audience plus, cardas, synergistic research, acoustic zen, and high fidelity and prefer Antipodes to any of them.
Yess the Cardas Golden Ref makes it a lot more musical. But there is a very big but........
You loose a lot of details, speed and drive in the low freq. This means you loose on the other hand.
Most people who have audio as a hobby are not able to listen to all different parts at the same time which need to be there for the absolute sound. What they do is changing a part to solve what they are missing. Just like you. They will loose quality for another part. Often they realize after some time what is missing next.
In the 16 years of time I work in sound and vision I have seen it quite often.
I'm looking for warmer, lusher, more romantic, "gold" type of sound - interconnects...
It seems as if the OP is aware of the fact that he will lose details and speed. In fact, it seems like that is the game plan. One must always find that balance between musicality and resolution that suits their own personal tastes. Not everyone is looking for just details, some folks enjoy musicality.
Of course, that said, there are several ways to go about it. One can either find the source of the too much details, which in my opinion is the Nordost Valhalla speaker cables, or they can find warmer, sweeter cables to help offset the detail overload that the Valhalla are capable of presenting. The Fusion Romance, Cardas Golden Cross, Jade Hybrid are all very warm recommendations. The Cardas Golden Reference, KCI Silkworm+, and Purist Audio would also help warm up the sound to a lesser extent.
Great advice to 86 the Valhalla. This alone might put you in the quest for a neutral cable like the Silent Source Silver or even the Ref. These are incredibly resolving!
And under no circumstances should you put Cardas "ANYTHING" into your system. These were fine for midfi systems 10-15 years ago, but they piss away the upper-freq detail big time.
The Jade Hybrid IC would be a great thing to try. I actually have XLR and RCA ICs here that I could loan you. I have since updated to the Jade Ref and I have not put these up for sale as for the price, they are so good. I do not know what JD charges for the Hybrid IC these days. But he's a super nice guy to work with and he can give you ideas as to what likely would be a good cable for your system/situation.
I have been keeping the Hybrids for the HT system, but just never got around to put them in there. So send me a note if you'd like to play with them. And I have some Silent Source Silver RCA and Ref XLR if you want to try those sometime. Some cables I just don't sell as they are hard to find later on.
I also have a spare Jade Ref Platinum/Gold RCA IC at the moment due to system simplification, but if you try these, you would likely cry when you had to return them.
Another very good cable is the Stealth Indra if you can get a good deal.
The Purist Dominus might resolve your need for warmth, but once you hear the Stealth or Jade for example, going back to the Purist with it's less-detailed top end would not be easy.
The mid freq. is maybe the most important part to be happy with the overwhole sound. I agree, but.....when you loose in drive, speed, more different layers in the low freq. and also resolution you can be dissapointed at the end as well. I have seen this many times.
You need to do this very precise. To test different options to see what is best for you.
You only understand what each individual part of your system does when you know the different properties of each single part of your system. And when you don't know, it is difficult to understand what you are changing.
I ask often even to people who work in this business if they are aware of the properties of the stuff they sell. Many times they say; we don't know.
I really want to thank you all. This is what I love most about audio - the community, the people... the willingness to help.
But especially,Jafox.I just can't believe someone would really loan their mega$$$ cables to unknown person.I'm speechless. Faith in humanity - partially restored.
Thank you so much.
It seems the general opinion is the Valhalla is responsible for this in my system.I think that's right. Actually, I took a lot of effort to tame the "tubey" sound, to add detail, speed etc.
Valhalla was bought after reading JD's review of it.
One must always find that balance between musicality and resolution that suits their own personal tastes. Not everyone is looking for just details, some folks enjoy musicality.
This is exactly what I meant.It seems I was too successful in adding speed and clarity to the system.
I will make another 40 cm bi-wiring pair of speaker cable. I have some Gabriel Gold Rapture R speaker wire that I bought 2 years ago.Then I will see what happens after Valhalla is out.
I guess that should be step No. 1.
Then see what happens.
The Valhalla is very natural sounding, not harsh. But other cables can deliver some extra needed warmth.
You Always will listen to all different parts in your set together. That is why I talk about properties of every single part in a audio system.
Audio needs to become a lot more open, just like here at Audiogon. There is a big need for better and more objective advice.
Music lovers deserve a better and higher endresult for the money they are spending.
Seriously? Natural sounding? You must be either using very dark gear or you are not familiar with the sound of live music. The Valhalla do have a purpose, to add detail to darker sounding gear, but they are not natural sounding on their own merit. They definitely highlight the upper midrange and treble frequencies. In my opinion they are no more neutral than cables that roll off the higher frequencies for added warmth. Neutral cables should not be adding or subtracting.
Audiobb is right, he seems to realize that he wanted to add some speed and resolution, but the Valhalla just took it a bit too far. In my experiences, Tara Labs and Stealth offer cables that are almost as fast and resolute as the Nordost Valhalla, but are not quite as thin sounding.
The Nordost Valhalla was compared to all other ( cheaper) Nordost loudspeakercables at that time a lot less harsh. I sold Nordost for over 9 yeats of time. I am talking about the loudspeakercable. I did not like the interconnects.
When the Valhalla came out it was called the least collored speakercable at that time. Many audio magazines used these words when it came out.
It was not perfect, I have written this here on Audiogon very precise. Because there are missing essential parts for the absolute sound. I call it incomplete.
I own the Audioquest 2013 Redwood loudspeakercable. This one goes a lot further compared to the Cardas golden reference. I have done a few tests with the Cardas Golden Reference in the past.
The Redwood is a lot faster in timing and goes deeper. The blacks are superior to the Cardas. Resolution goes further and there is more decay. Individual focus of instruments and voices is a lot sharper. The level of 3D is also a different story.
Audiobb, the previous(not sure abut current so) gabriel gold rapture and reflection speaker cable are not that good, I hd them in my system and they were lacking bass and sounded artaficial, you are wasting your time playing with them. If you want great speaker cables for the price try Snake river audio signature cables or purist audio venustas or Acoustic Zen Hologram, btw purist audio came out with latest revision (looks like total overhall) called luminis.
Bo1972, did you have a chance to hear this latest revision, any comments?
Jmcgrogan2, Jafox, what is your recommendation for a really great speaker cables that are not cheap but do not cost more than 2-3 grand? I came to realization that cables should be treated as a components to really show potential of the system.
Jafox, did you have a chance to hear JDs hybrid or gold refference speaker cables?
I agree! Since Audiobb already has these cables, he might as well give them a listen. Maybe he will not be in such dire need for warm interconnects once he removes the Valhalla speaker cables from the loop. Then he can reassess the sound and decide where he wants to go from there.
I can't really make any reco's until he has tried the GG speaker cables he already owns and see where he stands at that point. Audiobb is right, that is step number 1.
Who knows? At that point he may be looking for more detail again instead of more warmth.
My experience again and again during my chase for the great cables was that the link between the preamp and amp was the most sensitive to cable changes .in the context of 3D attributes. The constant claim that one must put their "best" IC from source to preamp is total nonsense.
Finally when as system became more and more optimized did speaker cable differences start to be discernible. The one speaker cable that ultimately worked well for me in terms of neutrality was the Purist Opis. Other Purist models were too colored. Also the top Coincident speaker cable was very close. The lesser expensive Coincident cable was a no go. I was then given a chance to hear the Jade Hybrid speaker cable and it was right there with the Opis but now there was just a little more spatial qualities in the sound. I use the Jade today but the Opis would be mighty mighty fine. Perhaps with the Lampizator L6 DAC and the Decca Jubilee cartridge, speaker cable differences would be greater. But I have no desire to go thru the cable quest game at the moment.
I also had a brief experience with a GG IC. It was a tonally neutral cable in my system so this will not add warmth to your system if this is what you seek.
Definitely GG Rapture r will be done next. I will post resulst, I am also curious to hear them.
I ordered Furutech spades today, as soon as they arrive, I will make the cables.It will probably take few weeks for these to arrive, but I will post results.
My GG Revelation is older than rapture R, and I still consider it a great IC cable.I wouldn't call it warm, I think it's tonally neutral. However these cables needed 350-400 hours of burn-in.
Audiobb, of course try the GG cables, I did not state it correctly, my bad. I meant that you should also try some other brands and not stop on GG,
unless you convince yourself that GG are good for your taste and most likely you will, since this move will not cost you anything.
STS, when making your wise comments, you should disclose that you are the maker of GG cables.
"Zd542,There is an audiogon member that has a pair of speaker cables that cost around 64,000.00.I asked him about them once ,,he replied that for what they did for his system,they are worth the price."
You just made my day. I'm locking myself in my basement and I'm not coming out until I build the first pair of cables that sell for over 100k.