No problem, Colitas, keep groovin with the Coltrane, and let us know how your re-wiring project goes. As to the old classic spinners, I just hate to see these old beauties ignored, they need attention... |
Rega's been in the game the longest, and you get that Rega arm thrown in, which gives you several avenues for upgrading as time goes on. Personally, I love the Spartan simplicity of the look as well. They also have excellent re-sale value. The 3 is worth the extra dosh, if you can swing it, as it'll stay in your system longer, and be worthy of some serious cartridge upgrades before you get the itch...They pop up for sale on this site all the time. I have to admit, I have a soft spot for this 'table, as it got me into this mess, and so I am not entirely objective. |
I can't resist, I always question what seems to be developing into Dogma and which seems to be unfounded empirically and therefore based in marketing propaganda. I don't wish to question someone's personal experience, but I must wonder if comparisons were carried out on a level playing field with respect to the two Rega arms.
The RB300 is more expensive for a variety of reasons, including superior bearings - both vertical and horizontal - to the '250 (a more rigorous quality control as well as different design). In addition, the spring which is made much of only resonates at certain frequencies, not all, and even this, to my knowledge, has never been tested - so is it really resonating, or is this PR designed to get OL business? And while perhaps it is not a good idea to have a spring in the assembly (I'm willing to grant the point if someone comes up with actual emprirical results), we must not forget the whole point to this spring, which actually acts in reverse: it applies upforce, not downforce, so that adjusting it for correct cartridge weight actually allows the counterweight to be placed closer to the bearing assembly, thus reducing the effective mass by something like 3 grams, which is a Good Thing. Finally, even the wiring is superior in the '300. I have read elsewhere on this site that the '250 has two bearings while the '300 has only one, which is nonsense. They are constructed similarly, but where the '250 is constructed with plastic (armstub) and bronze (bearing housing) the '300 uses stainless steel (both), and comes with a stainless steel counterweight. When comparing a modded RB250 with a RB300, did both arms receive the modded armstub and wiring which made the 250 superior: meaning has anyone ever tried the full OL mod on a 300 and then compared the two? Finally, the Rega P3 is thicker, having a thicker platter as well, which means more mass, which seriously affects the sound of unsuspended 'tables for the better. So in stock version at least, the Rega P3 is definitely superior, and will accomodate moving coils without modification (though, of course, improvements will improve the sound). Either Rega will sound better on a big, heavy platform, preferably a wall-mount.
I have been re-wiring Regas for something like 15 years, and if someone out there ever fairly compares the two arms and comes up with empirical results, I will immediately switch to the '250, assuming the '250 is actually superior. I may carry out the experiment myself, someday, as I actually have access to two re-wired Regas. Actually, this month's Hi Fi + features two articles comparing the Rega '250, '300 and '600, where some of these matters are explained. After all of the above, I am still open-minded, and will believe it when I hear it. So Colitas, do you know of any such experiments, where the OL mod is given to both arms? I wonder how the '300's superior bearings and lower effective mass are overcome sonically. Let's not forget that Rega was/is the upstart which challenges the Establishment (Linn in Rega's earlier days), offering high-end arms at budget prices, and excellent 'tables imitated by a number of companies: these companies, however, cannot match the Rega arms. I'd appreciate it if you pointed me to the relevant websites. Thanks. |
This forum is a treasure. While I plan to get myself a Kerry Audio Counterweight, I haven't heard of Herbie's mat. What's it made of, what is the principle? How does it compare with the Audioquest Sorbothane mat, which is an excellent match for glass platters? And has anybody out there tried the Boston Audio Design graphite mat? |
But the Projects don't come with Rega arms. Man, this advice site is clear as mud to the prospective buyer: flip a coin, a twelve-sided coin! You're right about the Sorbothane mat, 4Yanx, it only works well on glass platters as far as my experience goes, but here it shines. And jeez, what's a Mystic Mat? I don't even know what Herbie's mat is yet! I'm going back to my matless Maplenoll! Someone's gotta make a list of the different mats and the types of platters they work with. And I thought French was complicated. |
Listener57, I'm nervous, but I'm getting over it thanks to my mat-less Maplenoll! Thanks for the info, I'll check into the site. Oh, uhhh...and I vote for the P3....again. Of course, I hear those old RCA Victrolas were pretty good, and the needles are the cheapest. |
Colitis, thanks for the info. While I reserve the right to search your bags...uh, that is, withhold judgement, I do believe that with all these accolades for the Kerry mod I will buy one of these. As to the two-bearing hypothesis, there is some kind of miscommunication here. More elucidation is needed...anyway, thanks for the heads-up on the titanium weight: probably Twl can explain why it sits so close to the bearing relative to the heavyweight, something to do with the tear-drop shape? |
Colitis, when you compare different tonearm counterweights on your tonearm in controlled conditions - making sure the wiring is the same, the 'table is the same and so on - you are conducting an empirical/scientific experiment. This is what the audio hobby is. When I ask for empirical evidence of the negative contributions of the spring in an RB300, I am asking for someone to take the trouble to find out if it is really resonating, instead of just assuming it is. There's no difference between this request and someone asking which is the best turntable: we are both looking for experience, and this too is what the audio hobby is. I didn't want to offend you, but this hobby is also about questioning, or things like the Kerry counterweight wouldn't exist (in this case hobbyists questioned Rega's design). By buying all these mods, you question Roy Gandy. And so I questioned your statement that the RB250 was categorically superior to the RB300. At the moment my system is in a transitional state, and so all my high-end 'tables sound bright right now, and my mid-fi one sounds just right. Does this mean that the mid-fi one is better? No, just that my preamp is bright, and favours the rolled-off high frequencies of the lesser 'table. And thanks for the heads-up on Herbie's mat, now this'll open up yet another can of worms... |
Colitas, glad to hear you are getting the bass you've been looking for. As to the Sota, it is a beautiful 'table and extremely well engineered. How does it sound? Is it good at rhythm? I ask as I do collect record-players when funds allow and I may look into this. I believe that a "high-end" 'table which doesn't get the rhythm is no more than a paperweight. I'm a sucker for wood, superficial I know.
And yes, I do have access to both a Rega RB300 and RB250 re-wired in precisely the same way (by me) but I have not yet taken the rather large trouble to transfer them from 'table to 'table and so on (as on my home-mades this means total dismantlement), and was hoping that someone else did. I may do this in the future. But with my Rega RB300 I get sound which is so spectacular on my home-made 'table that I question the need for anything better...though I will eventually cave and buy the Kerry counterweight. Like you, I use a Grado Platinum on this, as again this gives such good sound I question the need for anything better (though I do have cartridges which are better in various respects), and there's that spooky clarity (due to the physical design/materials) as well as hair-raising intensity this cartridge gives in the mid-band which blows my mind. This cartridge is one of the few which shows progress is being made. People have to stop thinking in terms solely of detail and consider other aspects of sound, primarily timing.
I tend to compare new 'tables more with older, less-detailed and now "surpassed" 'tables to see if the old 'tables can teach me anything, and I find that the Connoisseur BD1, for instance (which can be found quite commonly for $30), always gets the music right. It was commonly used by most classical FM stations in the early '70s. It used a peripheral belt (around the platter) before any other, suspended the motor from a single solid plinth by a rubber cradle before Rega did, and used a clever low-torgue system for the motor drive. This thing makes all records sound good, even if it does not scale the heights of detail (it is surprising what it can do in this regard, however, when you look at it). And it makes all cartridges I've mounted on it so far sound very dynamic. Maybe I'll mount the Grado on it to see what happens...hmmmm....I regularly take sabbaticals from the "high end" (which I put in quotes since so much expensive equipment sounds like crap, makes no music), and then just listen to records on something like my Connoisseur for a year, or an Elac, or an old Ariston, all of which are very musical, and all of which actually gave me more musical pleasure than my "high-end" players!....Perhaps it is time for another sabbatical...This is tremendous fun, and cheap, try it!
And Listener57, thanks for your input: two of my "high-end" 'tables require no platter mat, but one does, and then there's my Connoisseur, which I'd love to tweak, fun, fun (and easy with this 'table, like the Regas)...I'm also considering the Boston Mat1, and will probably end up buying one of each, as I continue to buy old classic 'tables when I see them...As to my system, I need a new preamp, and am considering everything from the NAD C160 (for its musicality, switchable MM/MC, and remote-control) to various high-end pieces, tubed and solid state. My Connoisseur, for instance, has taught me that expense does not translate into musicality, and something tells me the NAD might be something special...Then again... |
Like the song goes, "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." If you find your toes tapping, then your 'table's got timing. As to wiring, I do my own using extremely thin solid core, mixed in with a favourite cheapy cable I find better balanced than any other, natural sounding, and detailed. But that's another story. If I were going to buy one, I'd go for the Incognito kit, which uses uninterrupted Cardas wire from cartridge clips to RCAs, a good design, and an aluminum plug to kill resonance all in one.
If I were looking for a good used 'table for cheap fun, I'd get an AR-XA (usually $30-$50). Grados love low-mass tonearms, so keep your eyes open for Grace tonearms, Black Widow tonearms, or Mayware unipivots, quite cheap except for the Black Widow. Except for the unipivot, the Rega's bearings are superior to these but you'd be amazed anyway at how the Grados open up when matched to these. If you pay $30 for the AR, then you shouldn't be too scared to drill out the AR subchassis. Alternatively, the Aristons (either the RD11 or RD80) come with a separate armboard so you can mix and match, but cost more (typically $200). They usually come with either a Mayware or Grace. Stick a Grado on these, and rock the night away, because timing doesn't get better than this. And all these tonearms benefit from rewiring too. But if you just want to plug n'play, then get a Connoisseur, and stick a Pickering or Stanton on it and find out what your grandad got so excited about! Astonishing dynamics and swing for $30, plus cartridge. Tonight I solved my problem temporarily by matching a Black Widow to an Ariston RD80, which gave a good, smooth and detailed sound with no brightness in my system. And it rocks, with the Platinum. Now I can relax and listen to music again, relief. Have fun! |
