Nearfield Acoustics Pipedreams
I would say that there is a real size differential in the sub diameter, versus the midrange diameters, surveyzop |
The woofer in the Pipe Dreams have a resonance of around 180 Hz. So they roll off at 12 dB per octave from there since they are a closed box. The crossover is around 65 Hz so they are already way down in response and keep dropping. You should use one of the couple different crossover/equalizers all of the speakers came with. These provide the proper crossover and sensitivity balance to the towers and extend flat response for the system to about 16 Hz. Needless to say since the roll off is extreme the equalization needed is large. Use at least 500 watts. The only tube amps for the subs I'd use are the Melos monoblocks which put out over 400 watts triode. By the way Melos amps and Pipe Dreams speakers were designed by the same people. The mid ranges and dome tweeters look like Audax drivers. They were assembled by Audax but they are very special drivers just for these speakers which can be a problem for replacing them. They are very low mass which is partly achieved by lightening parts like voice coils, etc. So there are no equivalent replacement drivers. The low mass relative to the magnet motor makes them very fast to start and stop. But the individual mids and domes have fairly low power handling and were only designed to be used in large quantity as in the Pipe Dreams so the large number of them still gives huge total power handling produces the speed of low mass and still huge power handling and clean, super high output. Setting them up in a large room is easy but they will dominate the romm. Use rule of thirds for the towers. The tweeters should be inside and the towers should be toed in so if you sit at the equilateral triangle position you just can't see the inside side of the tower. That time aligns the tweeters. The tweeter crossover is about 6 kHz at 6 dB per octave so the towers are linear phase. The seat at the triangle will give the best imaging. But imaging is excellent everywhere, even when the listener is outside of the speakers at the side of the room. They still image. The woofers(use one or two per side, each module has 2 18" woofers). Place them symmetrically relative to the towers. Again use a crossover designed for the speakers. Some of them have a test tone at the 65 Hz crossover. There is a phase control on the crossover. Use the control to null out the 65 Hz tone. Then use another control to flip the phase 180 degrees and you get an awfully good integration of woofers and towers. |
I have a large Pipedreams system (was it called Reference 21?) with 2 'depth charge' subs per channel. That's 8 18" drivers total for 60-85Hz. and below. Simply incredible. Bought them new from Craig Oxford, placed in large (roughly 35'X 20' with high ceilings) room, and driven the towers with 2 Lamm ML-1s and the subs with 2 Rowland Research (before they changed their name to 'Jeff Rowland Design Group') Model 7 monoblocks. A really amazing system. I'd post a photo of them in the room, but not sure this forum allows that? Don't see an obvious way to post photos. Might be selling them, so if anyone's interested (I and the speakers are in LA) let me know and we can talk about it. |
I'm trying to set up a pair of pipedreams with their subwoofers, but I can find no documentation online about them, so finding an adequate amp for them is very hard.IIRC, the subs are built to be operating below their resonance, so the crossover is EQ'd to give a boost of 6dB/octave. So you need a **lot** of power- a Carver 1000 watt amp (as the sub amp) I heard with them was clearly straining. If it were me I'd go with a different sub. |
I have heard them with tubes (a Melos amplifier that didn't blow up) and they sounded great. Had I owned them I would have used Lamm ML 1.1s, and I'm sure they would have worked, I don't think they were that tough a load to drive at all. I'm also certain that lrsky's advice from prior posts (as quoted above) is spot on. |
What kind of amplification to use' Pick the 'flavor' of sound that you prefer, (I won't go there). These are very revealing speakers, so the core sound that you pick will be what you hear. The towers are VERY efficient, as I recall, mid ninties. Once I used a Gryphon Callisto on the towers and various others on the bass units...the Gryphon bested, Ayre, Mac, Krell, conrad johnson, and it wasn't really close musically. That made me a lifetime Gryphon fan (well, that and the L1 Preamp from back in 1990--another story). From the second or third post |
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Hi! Many years after this thread was posted I'm here with very similar questions. I'm trying to set up a pair of pipedreams with their subwoofers, but I can find no documentation online about them, so finding an adequate amp for them is very hard. Do you guys know by any chance what amps are recommended for these? |
These speakers, IMHO, are some of the best ever created...I agree completely with Beemer's statements regarding 'scale' on large orchestral works. They do what MBL's do, in terms of dynamics but with fractions of the power. I'm not comparing them to one another...that's a longer, more detailed post. Good listening, Larry |
I have Reference 18's. when I purchased them I had called Craig Oxford to discuss the speaker and he said: "You have our test mules!". He went on to tell that as of the time I bought them, they had the absolute best and newest components. I run them with Levinson 33's and 33H's, and a full Levinson reference frontend. 5 years now, and I have no desire for different speakers. No regrets. I can't hear any comb filtering, and the sound is very dynamic. Large orchestral works lose nothing during loud passages, all instrument always have their own space. I'm coming from large apogees, Infinity Betas, and other high end speaker offerings. The "pipes" are as good today as they were when I bought them. |
Sure...I owned the Duetta Signature many years ago. I bought them new. About the only thing that would drive them satisfactorily was Krell, so I owned Krell. They mated well and I loved the open sound of the Apogees. It was addictive. I think they were my favorite speakers. Well, along comes Pipedreams and for the first time I got back the Apogee sound..open, fast,dynamic. I think I was surprised cones could do this. I also had Krell until recently..a holdover from my Apogee days. Don't get me wrong...good stuff, but the Edge is more graceful and relaxing..not as strident. The difference in presentation between Apogee and Pipes is size and clarity. You also have a much bigger listening area. Now we also have powered subs that weren't around in the old Apogee days, so I have a greater frequency range coverage. Don't get me wrong..Apogees are great. I just think the Pipes are better in almost all regards..cleaner, as fast, more coherent, better soundstaging, and easier to mate with electronics. Bob |
04-07-11: RkochiesThat's really interesting Rkochies. I have been going back and forth between line arrays and Apogees(Diva, Duetta Sig, or Scintilla) for my next speaker purchase. The amp demands have kind of kept me away from the Apogees and lack of feedback from many array owners has kept from those. Can you give a little insight into the difference in musical presentation between the Pipedreams and Apogee or Acoustat? |
I own a pair of 924...I use Edge NL 10.1 with them and love them. I also preferred a Rel powered sub, and that is what I use for the bottom end. I think they are the cleanest, most dynamic, and best soundstaging I have owned. That includes Apogee, Acoustat, Thiel, Vandersteen, and Genesis. These are really fun. I think you will notice that usually the ones for sale are through HigerFi... |
Darkmoebius, It's funny--one sale inspires another, then another--so much so that it's feast or famine. People, and rightfully so are cautious when multiple 'anythings' appear for sale...I think its only happenstance. The bulk of units, to my knowledge were sold from 1999 thru 2001 about a three year run. If that's the case, we're ten years down the road, the economy is slowly heating back up and some are looking to move up maybe. They were well made--beautifully done cabinetry and NA employed really great QC. I loved those speakers. Larry |
I have always liked these speakers, snd agree with Larry that properly set up they indeed can be magic. I cannot hear the comb effect, the bass was outstanding, and the soundstaging and dynamics were superb. There was some talk that the crossover was a weakness in terms of its transparency, but I never really noticed it. I would have loved to own them, had I the money and a proper dedicated room for them in my house. I too noticed all the different Pipedreams up for sale, and was curious about the biggest one, as it has a different subwoofer pictured (the ones I heard had the "depth charge" shaped subs, and one for each channel), with only one sub and no crossover pictured; I would ask about that before making an offer on that particular system. |
Philjolet, I would say that there is a real size differential in the sub diameter, versus the midrange diameters, therefore a possible speed issue...however. That, and they cross over at 60 Hz as I recall. Was it a perfect blend, NO, but in my opinion, outboard subs are never as seemless as single unit loudspeakers. With very careful movement, (parts of an inch) back and forth, one can time/phase the speakers into a very seemless sound. Not everyone can do it at first, but if one carefully listens, experiments and is dilligent, the work will be worth the effort. Johnathan Valin, who is a dillitante of the first order, had a love affair with the Pipedreams some years ago. I'm forgetting the actual text quotes, but it was as real as Sandra Bullock and Jesse James, and lasted longer, I'm thinking. If you trust his ears, (I do some times) read the review and use it as a guide. These speakers, when set up carefully, correctly, can be magic. good listening, Larry |
Actually, Jflacken, I sold more pairs and spent more time with them than anyone I'm aware of. Back in 1999 thru 2001, when I was managing Nicholson's Hifi in Nashville, TN, I brought the line in from Craig Oxford who was the owner of Nearfield and a Nashville resident. Your questions, past 'has anyone heard them': 'What are the problems with line array.' Great question--typically the problems are 'launch' issues, with multiple drivers stacked...in some cases 42 tweeters and 21 midrange drivers in such close proximity, the cancellation effects are said to create a comb filter. That means that the response is really uneven 'looking like' a comb, up/down/up/down, in terms of amplitude. That can be, is always disconcerting. There was 'supposedly' a remedy to this, though the remedy was never explained to me. I did NOT hear this kind of problem, and I'm very tuned in to frequency response (neutral being my favorite). 'Crossover problem' You're talking about the external crossover? Early units did have 60 cycle issues, but that was quickly taken care of. 'What kind of amplification to use' Pick the 'flavor' of sound that you prefer, (I won't go there). These are very revealing speakers, so the core sound that you pick will be what you hear. The towers are VERY efficient, as I recall, mid ninties. Once I used a Gryphon Callisto on the towers and various others on the bass units...the Gryphon bested, Ayre, Mac, Krell, conrad johnson, and it wasn't really close musically. That made me a lifetime Gryphon fan (well, that and the L1 Preamp from back in 1990--another story). 'Are the subs passive or powered' My last answer made it clear, they're passive. This is a very, very interesting speaker. They are the MOST DYNAMIC speaker I've heard including many horns. Maybe not as 'fast dynamic' as some horns, but dynamic as hell! They stage for me in such a way as to be the imaging champs of all time, placing instruments in a time and place in space--in front of, behind, beside...all over the room, with the towers being incidental to the sound. They were, in my opinion, fantastic speakers when set up correctly. Kenyonbm, said, "I might have thought I was on stage." I can't add to that. Good luck and good listening. Larry |
The biggest problem with large line arrays is the image size. You can easily experience a 3 foot wide nose on a singer whose head is the size of your room. Tapered response from the drivers helps alleviate this, but not all line arrays have that. However, for realistic volume levels and dynamics they are as close as a cone speaker can come to a horn. You do have to sit far enough back from them for it all to get too, but generally you can get a very nice and large sweet spot (not the head in a vice thing). |
