Natural and Neutral could be boring ..


Hello Guys,

First .. Happy New Year to everyOne!

Building my hi-fi setup I have always searched for "Natural & Neutral" sound and so I have added every piece of my rig thinking and searching in this direction...
Yesterday night , during a listening session , I was thinking about this and theoretically I couldn't be happier about the result

Here my gears:

The loved phono section:

TW Acustic Raven One
Graham Phantom MKII / IC70
Benz LP
Whest Audio PS30 RDT SE
Mogami Neglex balanced to the preamp

The not so loved CD rom session:

Philips CDD 882 (transport)
Philips DAC 960 (converter)
Mogami Neglex balanced to the preamp

Pass Labs X1
Parasound Halo JC1's
IC cables Mogami Neglex balanced

Thiel CS 2.4
Speaker cables Cardas Golden Reference

My room is quite a large room (36 ft. x 20 ft. 10ft. high) and Thiels are pratically in open air :-)) 7,5 ft. from the wall and more from side walls.

Well , I think to have reached an hi-fi setup that sounds pratically Natural and Neutral .. maybe not the 100% but IMHO I'm not far from that.
Yesterday night I was philosophize with myself , during a relaxing listening session , about how much could be boring this Natural & Neutral research.
It's true .. by a large majority .. the Audiophiles are searching for this result .. "Natural & Neutral" .. and the end justifies the means.
But when you get this or you're almost near .. the pleasure is only perceived or obtained by the software .. aka LP's or CD-rom's .. aka Music.
And sometimes the Music could be boring ...
So which is the solution?
Sincerely I dunno .. probably it's into the Tube world that's is often on the romantic side .. even at neutral and natural cost
I have been a great Tube fan some years ago when I had Jadis JA 80 and Klimo preamp .. I sold them when I decided to try Solid State and probably that was a pity!
Now I don't want to re-change all my hi-fi setup buying all tubes .. further I should be compelled to sell my Thiels too
But I could try adding a Tube Preamp .. just to aromatize the rest .. this could be a good idea .. isn't it?

But which tube preamp?
There are lotsa tube preamps that strive for the Neutral and Natural side .. I'm thinking to ARC , CJ , BAT etc.. and I don't need one of them .. I already own a very good natural and neutral preamp!

A good choice could be a Air Tight , Shindo , Supratek , Joule Electra .. but I have to pay attention to the "electrical marriage" with my two Parasound JC1's..

What do you think about my thoughts .. and any other idea about an Aromatic Tube Preamp.. Guys?
128x128curio

Showing 4 responses by mapman

I find during experimentation with different sounds and gear that I also am not happy for long in my main rig if things stray away from natural, neutral and dynamic.

The ARC tube pre-amp I use has been a nice fit for me in this regard.

Tubes are great for tweaking the sound in various ways but I still wonder if they are really needed when ones goal is natural and neutral?

Now that I feel I have sufficiently sampled good tube sound in my system and listening to others, including ones with tube amps, if/when the day comes when I need a new pre-amp, I think I am likely to seek a good SS one that can fit the bill. Tubes can be a real pain IMHO in terms of maintaining the sound you want once you get it as tubes age and the sound gradually mutates over time, noise issues arise, etc. Tube gear can be a nice source of income for tube and tube gear vendors however as the owners endeavor to maintain that perfect sound over time at any cost.

I have no trouble understanding why the golden age of tubes passed the way it did. They can deliver great results but more often it seems they just make things more difficult to get right. Either love 'em or leave them IMHO.

Some recordings are lackluster and need to be recognized as such. tweaking your system in hopes of making mountains out of bad recording molehills is a certain path to continual dissatisfaction and wasted expense.

BTW, modern loudness wars and remastered recordings may be technically deficient in certain ways (like overall dynamic range), but I seldom find them to be lackluster or boring to listen to. That honor usually goes to a lot of the original CD masters of older stuff. Most new recordings created in the last 20 years or so tend to be mostly acceptable to me. They generally don't sound like the better recordings from the golden age of vinyl, which are a unique breed, but get by on their own merits largely as a whole.

Some of the characteristics of a good recording that help make them not boring on a natural/nuetral system are dynamics, impact, attack, detail, lack of grain, focus, tonal balance, etc.
"In fact, I more often than not hear that kind of sound at live concerts as opposed to the squeaky clean neutral sound that numerous lovers of reproduced music voice a preference for."

Yes, but if the system is in fact "neutral", then you should get that live-like sound if that is how the recording was made.

If not, then you are attempting to correct for something you do not like in the recording with the system, and the results may be further off as well with other recordings.

Soon you are on a merry go round that never ends.

Unless you are of teh mindset to apply equalizers or other signal processing to get the results you want with different recordings. Nothing wrong with that if you have the tenacity and desire to make it work.

But heck, most audiophiles will go on teh equipmentr merry go round to get a particular sound they want even if it is not there naturally yet turn their noses up at the thought of using even well designed tone controls.
CK,

To answer your question, I recently replaced the stock 12AX7 tubes in my ARC sp16 pre-amp with equivalent Groove Tube 12AX7s and do not notice any real difference in sound, which supports what you indicated. For me, that is what I was hoping for (keeping the original sound that I liked with a different brand of tubes) so I was happy.

In teh other hand, tube rolling with my mhdt Paradisea makes a huge difference in sound and I find that beneficial in that it allows me to optimize the sound when I use it in different system configurations.
Definitely optimize the speaker placement in the room for bass response if not the case already.

Placement near rear wall should boost low end but may not be the only way to get a natural and neutral sound.

It is generally tougher to get it though with smaller speakers/drivers in a larger room especially if placed away from wall.

Some designs including omnis and planars may function optimally for bass as well as typical imaging and soundstage as much as a third or so into the room, but generally not too far from sidewalls.

It all really depends. You have to experiment to know for sure.

Definitely get the speaker placement optimized if not already before changing anything though...