Naim and Elac Adante, Wow


The new Elac Adantes are creating a lot of buzz both good and bad.

We were mixed on the speakers initially as certain sonic aspects were fantastic while others were less then satisfactory.

The Adante AS 61 has a relatively low sensitivity so we thought 40 watts will not be enough.

Surprise the Naim Uniti Atom with Wireworld cables produced an intoxicating sound.

The Atom is warm and punchy so the combo matched perfectly.

Elac and Naim fantastic together and affordable.

3k amp which includes dac and streamer,  plus 2.5k speakers other then cables and stands this combo would make a lot of people very happy.

We would urge prospective Adante purchasers to seek out this combo these two products mesh while other combos of electronics with the Adantes may be why some people are not liking the speakers.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
audiotroy
These are looking pretty good for me, as I have a warm/neutral setup currently with a NOS DAC, and 250 WPC amp.. with SS and tube preamp options...

What do you think about nearfield use, like 2 meters ?

This would be in a dedicated, single position, heavily treated, 4.3 x 3.3 meter room with high ceiling. 

TIA!
audiotroy: the real question is that whether these Andrew Jones' designed speakers are giant killers or not? I'm sure they are excellent speakers at their respective price point, but to be honest I was a bit put off by so many shills on this site presenting Elac as a genuine breakthrough of sorts. Lots of folks with less than recent join dates and less than 10 posts (all of them about Elac). I also saw quite a few threads about Elac that were removed by Audiogon. Just left a very bad taste in my mouth. 

So the question is: if I have $2500 to spare, what makes Adante's such a special deal?
lots of well engineered products made in usa available at that pricepoint - two come to mind as standouts: Magneplanar, Vandersteen 
go listen !
tomic601.. thanks for the comments.. have you heard the Maggies or Vandersteen´s vs. the Adantes?

Although I am not interested in those particular USA brands, it would be helpful any comparisons as I understand they are well regarded..

I am also considering the KEF R500 as I am using smallish monitors now (running fullrange with 2 small subs low passed at 40 hz.)... and miss the larger presentation of floor standers... to me a large and layered soundstage is a high priority.

Tomic comparing a Vandersteen to an Adante is like compairing an venerable old sports car to a brand new one.

You and I prefer very different things, having owned Maggies they are wonderful but highly flawed designs which is not the fault of Maggie it is a fault of all planers.

If your back wave is 180 degrees out of phase that is called diapole cancellation, and you have nothing to push against, as equil and opposite reactions cancel out, meaning your wave launch is not very good.

When you play a drum on a Maggie you don’t get the twack of a live drum, you also don’t get a very good image because the large flat plane causes diffraction.

Maggies have good detail and a lovely tonal balance, good imagers with great dynamics and extended bass they are not. They are also very room dominant.

Vandy 2Ce is a great speaker with a laid back treble, a large and not well focused image and prodigous bass which tends to be warm and not particularly tight. The reason many people swear by Vandys is they are very musical, and are easy to extract pleasing sound with.

The Adantes are totally different sounding, they are alive sounding they remind me of a good set of the Wilson Watt Puppy 7 or 8 sound for a fraction of the price.

The reason people are freaking out about the Adante particularly the AF 61 floor standers is that what they do they sound like much of the $20k to $30k reference camp in what they do well, but lack the last vestige of refinement of the better speakers.

What they mimic: huge soundstage, very tranparent, very dynamic very tight well controlled bass. The treble is a bit forward so careful matching is required.

If they had an even better damped cabinet, with higher end components most likely they would sound exactly the same as many really expensive reference speakers, most likely these were the compromises that were required to keep the price down.

I am sure in the next year or so as people learn how to setup the Adantes with matching gear, ie tubes or warm sounding solid state gear, and the positive reviews start piling up, like with the Debut and Unifi lines, and the Adante line starts to really sell, guess what will be next?

I am sure in about 2 years time Adante Elite, same drivers better damped cabinet, better wiring and crossover for $5k monitors and $10k floorstanders.

The killer combo is going to be the Naim Nova which is way better then the Atom with the AF 61 which will make a fantastic system with just one piece of electronics, totally system $12k plus cabling.

So are the Adantes game changers it depends on what you value, they are not perfect, the treble is still a bit forward, however, with the right match they can sound quite amazing.

In terms of imaging, speed, definition bass tightness and punch they are quite amazing, if you value the sound of live jazz or rock and have the patientce to work with components and cabling to voice the treble they will remind you of very expensive speakers.

If you value musicality and elevated warmth in the midrange, value a more liad back tonal balance don’t care for dynamics you will hate the Adantes.

I started with Quad ESL 63 with dual Entec subs playing Joni Mitchell was fantastic on them, moved into Wilson WP 3/2 and then 5 and would never go back to Quads.

Quads didn’t sound like live music, both for myself and Troy we both went down similar paths to eventually discover that what sounds real to us is what we want to pursue.

Ask yourself as you listen to live music which is bright and dynamic as hell, which sounds more real and which speakers mimic the live experience?

So are the Adantes a game changer that depends on your perspective and what you value, I will say that the $5k floorstanders will be very disruptive compared to many very expensive speakers and it will raise the bar on what you can expect out of this price range.

Hope that helps.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ



motberg
no not that model.....but so far not a fan of cabinets that ring like a bell....
but Hawthorne Stereo is our highly respected local dealer and i have reason to drop in this week
they are also a NAIM dealer, so hoping they have a pair to listen to..

i would ignore the poor and dated analogy from a dealer running down other product.....especially one who fails to understand the significant technical innovations past, present and ongoing by Vandersteen, Magnepan...and yes of course others....

the model 2 could be thought of as just the latest iteration of the venerable old beater Porsche 911..

and i laugh as I go sailing by and hit the apex....
motberg
Alan Jones at HiFi Buys in Atlanta has all three brands, good sense and ears...call him or better yet stop in
i will give him a jingle also
i have bought a decent sportscar worth of stuff from him over the years....i need to say hello
he has Totem, PSB, and a few other brands....
Tomic just as expected from a Vandy Fanboy.

Please explain to me in what way did a Vandy create anything new or revolutionary?   Lets see time alignment, first order slopes not invented here. Revolutionary drivers what composite cones, again not invented here.

You mistake creative packaging and pleasing  voicing for true innovation.

The Vandy 2Ce sounds like it was invented in the 1995 and yes alloy cones and poly cone midrange drivers are the epitome of modern transducer technology.

As per Maggie again please explain how the company has managed to eliminate the physical limitations of a 180 degree out of phase back wave and a large baffle which defracts the wave?

(((Please explain to me in what way did a Vandy create anything new or revolutionary?)))

Greetings Audio Troy
Here are a couple quick vids you can watch that may better help you understand Vandersteen innovation.
 BTW  one vid is from the many of his Best at shows, in particular, from an NY show right near you with the dealer Audio Connection.
 
I especially like going in at about 2 min plus where Art Garfunkles voice is
reproduced with a breathtaking awe in this revolutionary design.

It’s these and many other moments that keeps me in love.

Perhaps you fellows have caught a good case of Vanderphobia.
Try and cheer up, deep breaths, its Okay........
Enjoy,
JohnnyR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCg9NQU5wtk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8A6hN8kgC4
Johny we have 0 Vandy envy.

The 1c and 2Ce are great value loudspeakers that have a particular set of sonic attributes.

You have your fanboys we are allways pursuing the new and the truly innovatve brands.

I wonder if you do a patent search between Richard Vandersteen, Jack Oclee Brown, Laurece Dickie, Andrew Jones who actually has more patents.

Composite cones came out of JM labs long before Ricards balsa composite in 2007.

I will take a set of Adates over 2Ce any day. You can tone down a forward speaker much harder to add detail when your tweeter cant reproduce it.,

Neither one of these products is perfect it depends on what you subscribe to, our belief is what sounds real is good, not what sounds good is the governing idea.

Go sit in front of a Wedding band with a horn section does it sound melodic or aggressive?

Our pursuit is the absolute sound, play a live drum record on both speakers and se see which set sounds the most real?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ


Hi audiotroy

I am sorry to add to this thread drift, but your comments about Vandersteen strike me as being rooted in old stereotypes.

What struck me was your comment about live horses and drums...I come at this hobby with a fair amount of live music experience, both as a performer (sax and drums) and observer.  What I take from your comments is that you think modern Vandies sound rolled off and lack detail--i.e., not "real."  I genuinely disagree with that.  I have heard the whole line (disclaimer:  I own a pair of 3A Sigs) with all manner of music, and I can't see how *that* is the criticism you would come away with.  If your criticism was a narrow vertical sweet spot, I'd give you that one.  

Anyway, you seem to be set on the favorites in your store, but if you get a chance to hear a nice set up with modern Vandies, I'd urge you to take an listen and see if you think that criticism still holds.  I'd be interested to know the details (no pun intended).

Happy listening!
Cedargrover, the most popular Vandy 1c and 2Ce are still old designs with hardly state of the art drivers, an alloy tweeter and a polycone midrange.

They would hardly be called transparent speakers, they fall into the "musical" camp, so do Harbeth. We don’t sell nor do we want to sell either brand.

If you read any of our posts you would see that we respect Vandersteen to our ears, and by the way to many others they are quite colored sounding which makes Vandy speakers great if you like that type of sound.


Why don’t you listen to a pair of $14k Quattro’s and then come to our shop and we can show you a set of Legacy’s Signatures for $7k, with a similar sound. ie warm and big sounding.

Yet the Legacy’s are 95db efficient with bass down to 22hz and the Legacy will play louder to boot at half the price.

We can also show you a set of Legacy Focus Se with a Wavelet total package about $16k just add an amp as you get a preamp/dac/room correction processor. This combo challenges a set of 5C.
 
If you read almost every review of even the 5C or the Quattros most people who love them fall into the same camp they are the "musical" uber alles camp, they are not wining over the peole who prefer a less colored sound.

Never have I heard a reivewer with JM Labs or Rockports or Magicos trading them in for Vandy.

Vandy’s biggest claim to fame the carbon balsa cone is hardly a new idea as JM Labs was making composite cones for years.

Please enjoy what you like, please don’t tell me that Vandersteen builds speakers in the class of TAD or Magico or Rockport, YG or Kef.
Other than the 7 which is a good speaker not worth $70k but a good well designed speaker I would never consider owning any of the other models.

Go back to drinking your coolaid, Richard has no formal training as a loudspeaker designer, the video interview was hysterical, he blew out his midrange and alligator clipped a midrange driver to the top of the cabinet and found it sounded better.

Their one patent for the balsa cone included Mike Latvis as co inventor so what exactly did Richard invent?

Jack Oclee Brown, is a trained engineer.

So is Lawrence Dickie look at this list of patents

Our Patents

VIVID AUDIO and the VIVID AUDIO logo device are registered trademarks.
Patents pending on domed driver D26
Patents pending on D50
Patents pending on C125 bass-mid driver
Patents pending on C175 bass-mid driver
Patents pending on C225 bass-mid driver
Patents pending on compliantly mounted reaction cancelling drivers
Patents pending on reaction cancelling ports
Cabinet shape and construction techniques are registered designs

As per Andrew Jones technical experience:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreymorrison/2014/03/15/12-questions-for-andrew-jones-director-of-s...

True innovation is not making a new way to build a composite diaphram, but really coming out with really new ideas.

And yes Cedargrover we have heard all the newest Vandy model at shows and at other dealers as well as some of Johnneys clients homes.

Another bone of contention is your idea that Musicians who play live music are a good judge, many, many, musicians have tremendous hearing damage.

This is not a personal attack on your or what you believe or perceive.


All products have a house sound, every Andrew Jones speaker strives for speed, and accuracy all except for the cheapie Pioneer line.

If you value these things you will love speakers that fit in this model. if you are in the romantic, warm or musical camp you will love Harbeth, Devore, Vandy, and a ton or other speakers that fit this type of sound.


Happy Listening!


Dave and Troy

Audio Doctor NJ



Ha, first of all, in my post "live horses" should have said live *horns*.  Autocorrect can get the better of us all from time to time; at least that one was pretty funny.

Anyway, I will go back to enjoying my Vandies with a tall glass of delicious "coolaid"!!!  
Post removed 
Cedar grover you are welcome to make an appontment and see who is right. 

Maybe you will perfer our coolaid which is usually Scotch single malt or fine sipping Tequila.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
Repuluso, who is stepping on whom?

The point of our original post was to point out how and why someone who is in one camp will not be easily swayed to moving into a different camp of sound.

It is interesting how certain posters make ridiculous claims on innovation and revolutionary designs without backing anything up and it seems you don’t like our scientfic analysis of things.

The majority of the audio industry is simply repackaging or voicing.

There are very few real audio geniuses out there: in electronics:

Nelson Pass, David Hafler, David Berninig, John Curl, are true innovators, with patents and innovations to their names to name a few.

Dan Dagastino, Mark Levinson the man, Hans Ole Vitus, Harve Dartzeel and many others, never innovated anything, all their products are excellent impliementions of circuits they didn’t design with careful parts selection and voicing. Never said these products aren’t magnificent.

In terms of loudspeaker designers the true geniues are gentleman like

Peter Walker of Quad, Quad ELS 57 and 63
The founder of Kef,Raymond Cooke, too many innovations to list
Bob Carver, subwoofer design
Graham Bank Celesion Aerolam Cabinet SL 600, 700
John Bau Spica Crossover design,
John Dalquist, DQ 10, open baffle designs
Jack Oclee Brown Kef Tangerine wave guide
Laurence Dickie, B&W, Vivid,Matrix Design, Tappered tube loading

Just to name a few

Many talented designers made great speakers due to experimentation, and implementation which is 80% of the industry.

We never said x y or z is good or bad but pointed out that each design has flaws, including the Adantes, they are hardly perfect. We also pointed out that many of the products we like offer a lot of value and challenge other more expensive ones it is up to the listener to determine what they want to purchase.

If you notice many of these fanboys all make the claims that brand x is better than brand y or is the only product that is good, We point out the nature of these products.

If you look at the frequency response curves on many of these products you can see how they will possibly sound, in the case of the Vandy the measurements show the speakers are generally recessed in the midrange and slightly rolled off in treble, hence they sound the way they measure.

In the Hifi New review of the Adantes they show a spike at 10k guess what you can hear that as being a tad forward in the treble hence our comments that you need a warmer sounding solid state or tube amp.

Beryillium and Diamond drivers can be bright never said they aren’t, many paper cones and soft domes sound a bit recessed.

Recluso we know a lot about sound reproduction and we call em like we hear them.


Again for the simple summary Vandy great value for dollar 2CE and 1C sound musical wtih their own specfic set of sonics qualities good and bad,

Elac Adantes very interesting design which has some amazing qualities but requires carefull matching of it can be peaky in the treble.

Planers don’t kick and very few guys hailed as audio geniuses actually are  when compaired to the real innovators.

And if we rub you the wrong way and don’t want to work with us that is fine, we probably couldn’t teach you anything.

By the way big news flash, put a set of Isoacoustics Gia under the Adantes and it helps drain away that 10k resonance


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ




Audiotroy you have departed from logic and reason into hate
your patent search is flat out wrong - there are at least 3 including dbs, aerodynamic midrange and a few other things - are some shared ? well certainly - what else would you expect from an innovator with 37 years of collaborating with leaders in Indusrty - notably Low at Audioquest, and HRS, etc..

i have some experience with innovation, technology, and the worldwide protection of intellectual property ( at the largest and best Aerospace company in the world )
saying the word composite is meaningless...you only reveal your ignorance
of course even the largest, mighty and deep pocketed firms in the world do not patent everything - google trade secret and you might learn something....

as for fanboy, perhaps....but i own and listen to some 8 or 9 pairs of speakers, including a nice set of Apogee Planar and some horns ....

i hear live music every week, have a nice high speed mobile rack, ribbon microphones and know what microphone feeds sound like...

run your product UP

dont run others down

good life lesson for ya
signing off

Sorry Tomic,

Just don’t see it that way and quite frankly there is no hate here at all. Vandersteen builds speakers that many people love but not all people find them perfect or to be to their liking. Sorry to come off as a hater, we don’t use the word "revoloutionary" lightly. Most of the audio industry is evolutionary, it pisses me off to no end when people imply that only "our product employs a genius designer" when there are many, many engineers that have really blazed some new paths.

We sell many different lines of loudspeakers and endorse them all equilly. In our minds and in our store there is no one best loudspeaker, every loudspeaker design is flawed and produces a sound that listener x will like or not like.

We sell Kef Blades, Paradigm Personas and the Legacy Aeris these are three highly rated speaker systems. We also sell ATC and Rethem and now Elac and many others. We don’t view any audio product as untouchable if we can find a better dac or amp or speaker system we happily move out the old and work with the new.

In Vandersteen’s long history his firm has come up with some excellent drivers and technologies, but how many of these are really revolutionary? An open back midrange driver is one way of making a better sounding midrange there are other ways such as the tappered tube design of Lawrence Dickie. 

Vandys balsa wood cones may be fantastic but they are evoloutionary designs. Focal came up with the "sandwich" cone as well as a few others, and they did it first. Is the Balsa wood cone better than a Focal sadwich cone of fiberglass sheeting and foam? I don’t know but both of these companies offer some high tech drivers which claim to be perfect pistons, by the way almost every major manufacturer claims their drivers to be pefect pistons.

The Devialet Phantom is almost a revolutionary product, you may not like it but it is almost a game changer except that Bob Carver did it first, in terms of his original compact subwoofers with long throw drivers and 3,000 watts of digital power, the concept of the ADH amplifier now that is novel.

Hope that clarify our arguements and we are totally okay with your love of what you own. We have different opinions on what sounds good and there are many audiophiles out there that love or loathe a particular product.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ



Post removed 
Post removed 
@audiotroy 
disagree with your assessment of Harbeth being musical and lacking detail similar to the Vandersteen speakers.  
I appreciate your extreme knowledge of speakers and speaker design but IMHO the Harbeths are musical and detailed, especially the C7ES3 and SuperHL5+ which have very nice, detailed sounding Seas aluminum dome tweeters.  they also sound very natural, simialr to live music due in part to the warmth from controlled cabinet resonances.  In addition I have never owned a speaker that let me enjoy nearly all of the music in my collection without unacceptable harshness. 
many speakers have additional detail, some artificially so and as such become "hyper detailed" to the point of listenning fatigue and incompatability with a greater percentage of recordings. 
It is a fine line to walk down that balances detail, fatigue and pleasing sound.   
Avanti, 

Heard the 40.1 at the New York Audio show, and the 30.1 at Capital in both cases the speakers didn't have that incredible treble clarity that we hear in many of the more modern designs. The Harbeths have a great midrange and very listenble. Both cases neither speaker system made us go wow.

Harbeth is one of those brands that a lot of people swear by, and if you enjoy yours that is fantastic. 

The entire concept of cabinets which ring is very controversial, yes it is musical but do you want a transducer to color the sound or do you want to hear what is actually there?

This is the arguement between the "musical" camp and the "high resolution" camp.

Owned Quad 63 for years yes you could listen to them for hours and hours but compared to the WP 3/2 and the 5 we moved to they didn't sound like live music the way the Wilsons did.

Our philsophy is to produce the sound of real music warts and all. So in the case of a speaker like the Adantes which are very visceral loudspeakers with a bit of a spike at 10k means you have to find electronics which compliment them and whose properties are the inverse of what the speakers faults are that produces a good match. 

Adantes require a warmer amp with a polite top end, which is the typical sound of Naim and certain tube amplifiers and of course other solid state brands as well. 

We prefer the more neural sound of ATC over the Harbeths when it comes to classic British monitors, haven't heard the new Spendors so we can't comment on those. Also the ATC are priced lower for a comparable speaker, howerver, the Harbeths are stunning loudspeakers while the ATC are plain janes. 

Again it all comes down to what you value.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ



no sense arguing with the technically incompetent 
a tapered enclosure solve a different problem than an aerodynamic magnet structure..

of course you are claiming that the patent office got it wrong, while citing a bunch of patents pending...might want to rethink that..

as for pistonic, becoming easy to measure, versu claim with recent German advances in laser technology - nice utube video of the 7 driver vs a “ claimer” with 10% out of phase trash

as for balsa, you claim no innovation there - prove that with facts....

you get end grain high density balsa to adequately bond to CF reinforced epoxy resin without core crush and I will fly out and pay your patent fees....but as it turns out you have invented what ????

get off the hate, acknowledge the innovation, say it aint your cup of tea....but for intelligent customers you come off as an unprintable word...
Sorry Tomic,

Hate to disagree, but your arguements don’t hold water, an "aerodynamic" midrange driver will eliminate reflections off of the parallel surfaces behind the driver’s surface.

A tapered tube is designed to funnel the back wave energy away from the cone in the first place, by redirecting the rear wave into a transmission line loaded tube with different densities of stuffing material, this result would therfore would be much more effective then by just removing some reflective surface material behind the driver, without a mechanisim to redirect and disipate the back wave, you are not really accomplishing all that much however, it would still be an improvement over a driver that is not built to control the rear wave in some manner.

As per bonding a carbon skin to balsa that is why Richard got the patent, howerver, JM Labs and Thiel were bonding Fiberglass skins or metal diaphrams to light weight damped foam cores for years so again where really is the innovation in that? Is Balsa and Carbon fiber better than a Fiberlgass sheet over foam or is that marketing hype? Can you prove that claim?

Unless you actually measure the different bonded drivers ie a Focal vs a Vandy driver you really don’t know one is which is better in terms of the drivers response and  less risidual coloration.

What started this is someone claiming "revolutionary" we are refuting that by saying that there are other engineers who created composite core/cone diaphrams earlier. Which one is better is open to conjucture.

Considering that Vandersteen is the only one to use this cone vs Focal who uses their own, the world won’t really know.

Tomic you could also conjucture if you built a diaphram that was inherently light and stiff and self damped you wouldn’t need to try to bond materials together, wouldn’t it be great if that diaphram woud exisit.

I guess you might want to look at Magico or YG or Rockport’s diaphrams or Kef or Paradigm or Vivid.

I guess a company that could spend $4 million dollars developing all their own drivers wouldn’t have access to any and every state of the art measuring device know to man both Kef and Paradigm as well as B&W have state of the art research labs do you honestly think that their cones aren’t perfectly pistonic?

Please keep drinking the coolaid. The 7s are very nice speakers if you love yours that is great, personally if I was going to spend $70k on a set of speakers I would buy a set of Vivid G1 any day of the week, but I guess Lawrence Dickie ins’t a loudspeaker genius as well.

By the way we are not Vivid dealers, so we got no skin in that game.

Good night to you, and go listen to a set of G1 and lets talk.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ




I have no dog in this fight. I am not in the market for loudspeakers or any type of component. Audiotroy, I hate to break this to you, but your constant touting of Legacy and your slow but ramped-up cheerleading of Elac is growing tiresome. You are shilling the lines you sell, plain and simple. In the process of shilling, you are expressing some very personal sound attribute preferences as if they are objectively superior. As I push 60 and reach 42 years in the hobby, I believe I have gained the wisdom to see all of audio as compromises. Relying on the concept of stereo; two boxes or other form of transducers of some sort, is in and of itself a very steep compromise. Everything leading up to those transducers involve compromises. I appreciate deep taut lightning-quick and scalpel-precise bass but whether you like it or not, the loudspeakers that have such tight bass don't feature coherent of-a-whole-cloth sound. With almost no known exception, you can have one or the other but not both. And in addition to the above, your shilling is contradictory. First you go from exclaiming the virtues of a killer match of Naim Atom and Elac Andante, then you go into a critical segue that Jones and Elac built down to a price by opting for sub-par drivers and cabinet construction and then you careen back to absolute praise. Your constant references (pun) to Legacy as unquestioned standard-bearers is contradictory too-Legacy pioneered the "big box with lots of drivers" approach at a slightly higher level of parts choice than the present bizarre fad of Tekton. Despite tons of advertising, not a single well-respected reviewer has ever positively reviewed one of their products. I am not in the biz, but I am willing to bet that the mark-up on the lines you happen to peddle is significantly higher than the mark-up on the lines you went out of your way to single-out as lines you won't (or can't) sell. 
It appears fsonicsmith has respect for reviewers but not dealers. Why pick on Audiotroy? If you go to there web site they sell many excellent products and have been around a very long time. Any one who does audio as a business in high end and sells a litany of high products should be given credence on what they recommend. As a hobbyist, it seems audiophiles maybe get a little too intense on their opinions and preferences. My experience in thirty years is that audio dealers are usually very knowledgeable and helpful in seeking out great discoveries in the audio world and should be given the respect and gratitude they deserve.
+1 fsonicsmith re: audiotroy
Fsonic you didnt read any of our posts did you?

We stated catigorically the Adates are not perfect and will appeal to some people who value different sonic attributes like a very live sound vs a more toned down more  colored laid back perspective.

What we said was the speakers were delibrately made to allow for a more expensive line to follow as they come close to very expensive speakers and lack the last vestige of refinement that the more expensive products provide.

As per Legacy being a standard bearer we never said that what we have said time and time again is how remarkably good the line is and how they compare with many much more expensive speakers.

As per reviews on Legacy in the magazines

http://legacyaudio.com/backstage
/blog/legacy-awarded-3-editors-choice-awards-in-2018/


Fsonic how do you like them apples?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
Fsonic if you also bother to read our posts you would see that we talk passionately about our products and make assements on products that we respect and like that we dont sell.

Have you ever seen in one of these posts by a dealer mentioning competive products that they recomend that they dont sell? We love Rockport speakers we are not a dealer for them.

As per shilling some brands have tons of fanboys that do the shilling for them

I see very few guys like you complaining about how vocal the Tekton guys are.

The second someone dares point out the sonic attributes both good and bad about certain brands certan posters freak out.

Tomic is a Vandy fanboy and loves his speakers that is noble.

We never believe that our products are perfect and for everyone.

As per Vandy the 1c and 2Ce are fantastic value for money speakers with a sound that appeals to some listeners but not to eveyone.

We sell many brands of excellent speakers for that very reason.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor


you are not noble enough to acknowlege innovation
stop calling me fanboy
my comments relate to innovation and technical accomplishments which you immaturely deride
of course i enjoy my speakers

get it thru your head i am not running down any of your choices or designers....


Tomic we are noble enough to acknowlege true innovation.

Your definition of innovation and ours differ greatly. Making a cone with a balsa wood core vs a foam core doesn’t speak to us as real innovation, that is called a pivot.

MBL Radialstratters, the original OHM F, the Quad ESL 63 and 57, the Alison 1, the B&W Matrix, the B&W Natulus, the KEF 104, are revolutionary designs even the Wilson Watt would fit this mold, while the latter Magico Mini would not.

Even Lawrence Dickies new company Vivid who at shown above has a large amount of patented technologies, these new drivers are evolutionary designs.

We are not immaturely deriding anything, are you not grown up enough to have a civil disscusion on the nature of what constitutes revolution vs evolution?

We don’t think you are running down any of our choice of designers.

It is always refreshing to see what a polarizing thing audio is and how passionate people are about what they purchase.

The interesting thing between you and us, it that we are not aligned to any one designer or company, if we find a better product we move out of one company and into another.

What is really interesting is the amount of Vandy, Wilson, Tekton fans and how they doggidily hold on to their viewpoints and whoa be it to you who dares to get them to question their beliefs.

Good evening Tomic.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ



Say what you like to save face, but it has not escaped my notice that the only typos in your message to me were offensive bastardizations of my name. By the way, despite what you may be telling yourself, your rants here are serving to make certain that I (and I am certain most/many others) would never consider doing business with you. You lack class. Unlike Johnny Rutan, who, as always, works from a position of calm, right, and live and let live. I know you do not take advice from anyone (theres a name for that), but if you were ever receptive to some advice, it would be to stop. Just stop.
@audiotroy
Paging Dale Carnegie. Paging Mr. Dale Carnegie.  Will Mr. Carnegie please respond? Urgent- we have a situation.
Repluso, why don’t you just stop.

There are many people who actually learn something from our posts.

The fanboy posts of many people don’t tell people anything that they don’t allready know.

For everyone like you who complains, there are many people who sit back silently and read these posts and are enlightened by them.

The fact that you think we are shilling this product is amusing, when hificrazed come out of nowhere and posted 17 times about the speakers.

With the Adantes we talked at length about the speakers flaws and that they require careful matching and people still may not like them and have a particular kind of sound, and we get nothing but abuse for telling the perceived flaws,as well as what the speakers do right.

If you also notice in any of our posts we back up our statements, we almost never claim revolutionary anything. 99.9% of audio is based on slight changes to what has come before, there are exceptions Nelson Pass, David Berning, T+A’s HV series, and a few other electonics manufacturers have really used some new thinking.

When we talk about Paradigm Personas in the shop we do high light the advantages of Beryilium drivers but never do we say that these drivers are revolutionary when Focal and others made Beryilium drivers before even though Paradigms drivers have a lot of unique new technolgies building a speaker with a phase aligning lens or Beryillium drivers of even long throw suspensions isn’t new thinking it is a new set of packaging a lot of different technolgies into a new driver.

When we talk about Legacy we don’t call them revolutionary either, Legacy makes an outstanding loudspeaker with some fantastic drivers that sound a particular way and are priced very reasonably.

People like you look for what they perceive is wrong in the world, your viewpoint is therefore narrow, the same way the Fsonic made a ludicrous statement about Legacy’s speakers not being reviewed and lo and behold they have three Editors choice awards in the Absolute Sound as well as rave reviews from many other magazines.

What started all of this is our opinion that Maggies and Vandy’s have particular attributes if you notice we never said these speakers are bad and the ones we sell are better, we decribed what they both accurately sound like, and we take tradeins all the time and we have had traded in Vandy as well as Maggies.

The point was to know your customer, if you like live music, rock and jazz and like a visceral presentation and are willing to work with the Elacs they are going to be fantastic, if you prefer a more melodic sound, richer tone, want a big soundstage and warm full bodied bass you will love the Vandy, if you like a big sound, with clean treble detail, and are not a bass freak, don’t crank it up and play loud and have the space you will like Maggies.

Now please tell the readers your experience with all three?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ


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Repeluso, class in Audio? You must be joking.

You are turned off by your perceived slight when late at night I mispelled your name? If you read many of our posts there are misspellings a plenty, this keyboard lags, and we write late at night many times and there is no spell check on Audiogon. You must be one of those conspiracy nuts as well. If it makes you feel better, we are sorry for mistyping your name, as an adult I really don’t get blustered by someone misspelling my name.

As per being an A hole who is calling whom what and what do you base this on? See above.

I guess you also don’t like our discussions and disagreement with a gentleman that perceives something different then we do, this is called having a discourse. 

The industry is rife with corupt writters, double dealing distributors, and manufactuers that convieniently extended loan products to reviewers forever in order to curry favor. If you have been in the industry as long as we have you would start to figure it out.

Mr. Rutan has his fans and his detractors, so do we.

We are vocal about our products so is Mr. Rutan.

The difference is we sometimes start discussions, while he adds to ongoing ones.

You judge a book by what little you know of it, you have never been in our store you have never had an actual in person or over the phone conversation with us.

Instead of agreeing or disagreeing with the points made on both sides you are upset about your name being mispelled, why don’t you grow up and talk about the subject which is loudspeakers.


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ




This is going well. 🤡
Thank you for your insights. I judge you by what you have written here, nothing more. You are hopeless, best of luck to you. Sincerely. By the way, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen Mr. Rutan start a post here. On any topic.

ps-I don't buy your late night excuse, you are a total, well, you know.
Repeluso, guess what takes one to know one.

I unlike you would never jump to conclusions or pretend to gain insight just from what is posted on a forum when the forums are populated by many people with marginal experience and tin ears.

We are always in the process of testing new speakers, Avanti we are getting in a pair of Habeth Compact 7ES tonight, I will test them here and who knows maybe we will also love them. Last pair we had in was $4k don't remember the model and they were good, just didn't love em enough to want to sell them.

Many of those people don't know audio, system setup, design nor do they understand technolgy.

Good luck to you, as mentioned before close minded people who sit behind there keyboards and feel slighted do not have minds open enough to know the truth about anything.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ






This thread reminds me of the old "would you buy a (insert noun) from this ’Doctor’ "?
Why are you getting Harbeths to test? As you have said in many many posts you don’t like them and they don’t compare to current more modern designs? ? ? Getting popular and think you can sell them? 
No Mofo traded in and that is what we mean by testing them.

So far in hearing them at two different shows and we had one pair of $4k Harbeths brought here a few years ago never fell in love with the Harbeth sound. 

Reason mentioning that is too show you we actually do test and listen to these products if you would like pictures be more than happy to post them.

Mofojo if it isn't obvious we don't take the path that is easily traveled, or we would be selling products like Mcintosh or B&W which are find products, we prefer T+A to Mcintosh, and Kef to B&W.

We are however always looking at new products, we are looking at bringing in two high end loudspeaker lines and another dac in this year. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
PS you are an amusing fellow, personally I think this is sad that a post has to come down to a vitrolic attack between or about members.

We all have opinions, and as stated before we test and move in and out of lines if we find better products. 

Most dealers sit by and sell the same product lines year after year never venturing out of there comfort zone to see if someone has produced a better product that they can offer to their clients becaue it is better. 

Many years ago Dave Wilson entered the market and there were a few brave dealers that signed on, same with any of these now established brands,  once many were brand new and not established.

Do you think that Dave  Wilson's original Watt was ridiculed at the time for being a two way with limited bass that was crazy expensive at the time?

The fact that people care so much about the inanimate objects they own and they personally feel insulted if you dare question anything about their beloved x y or z is crazy.

These are all tools who cares if brand x y or z may be better, I know we don't. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
@Audiotroy,

I always look forward to your posts. When I saw that you started this thread I took the time to read it because I knew I would learn something. The Elac Adante are not something that will fit my needs but I knew there would be something you say here that I would find valuable.

I built 2 systems in the last 6 months using A'Gon as my listener resource and I could not be happier with the results. Your posts have largely helped me navigate to the destination that I ended up. The systems I built only have 1 piece that you guys carry, the KEF LS50. The rest you guys do not carry however, the info you provided here helped me build 2 great systems for my office and bedroom. Knowledge is power, thanks for sharing.

When I get my 3rd living room/family room system going later in the year (I hope). I am going to make a point of buying something from you guys, even though I am on the other side of the country. 

I like it when dealers post here and other sites. Lots of very passionate and informed dealers posting online. Of course, everyone has their opinions and bias, but so what.
you seem confused between innovation, revolution and evolution
you should go back and read what i wrote
as for the Giya, of course i have heard them....for hours at a dealer mere minutes from our California home...
i recall buying a SOTA table from him....another made in America innovation......
of course the Giya is a magical sounding speaker....
revolutionay decor for sure....


Audiotroy is back.  He is once again taking up valuable space in the forums to sell his products and debunk others. Anyone who prefers another outstanding brand is hard of hearing and most likely a kool-aid drinking "fanboy". Oh and he has science behind him because he is an electrical engineer, I mean, he has read alot of articles and heard lots of speakers like many serious audiophiles here. But, well, I mean uh, he is a dealer and is therefore just more qualified to opine than others therefore attention must be paid. And as a dealer he wouldn't steer you wrong. I mean all of the other dealers who start threads to promote their products do the same thing. I mean, look around the forums for a few days and you'll find all of them---- I mean both of them--Dave and Audiotroy. Or are they one? 

Anyway,  Audiotroy knows the absolute truth about which speaker brands are the best and he can rank them for you. The ones he sells are the best and the ones that he is not permitted to sell are loved only by "fanboys".  But don't call him a "fanboy" as there is a big difference between a "fanboy" and a self-promoting blathering shill.
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I honestly don’t get the animosity toward Audiotroy. He is obviously very passionate about the brands he carries. Why shouldn’t he be? That’s his profession, and he takes it very seriously.

I, for one, find his posts very illuminating, albeit a little long winded. He never hides the fact that he is a dealer. Everyone is free to adjust their salt of grain accordingly, or ignore it altogether.
ZZ and Arafig, Thank you both. 

Here is the real point, I highly doubt either Tomic or Gr4blu, has actually heard the Adantes, first they just came out, and second very few dealers have signed up to carry the line.

We were not interested in the inexpensive stuff because it was too easy for a prospective client to just order them on Amazon and as a brick and mortar we do not like to compete with Amazon.

We became interested after the buzz at CES where the Adante/Audio Alchemy setup at $12k was amazing many people who heard them.

The first thing that Tomic says when someone is asking about the Adantes he suggests go hear the Vandersteen 2c and the Maggie.Why?

It is nice to be able to purchase an American made product but is that product no matter where it is made going to be the right product for that listener?

How does he know that the Adantes may be far supperior to those loudspeakers if he has not heard them but only read about them?

If you like rock or play loud I can assure you the Adantes will be more than your cup of tea and would be preferable over the Maggies or Vandys.

If a customer came into our store and prefered to listen to acoustic jazz or classical I don't think we would recommend the Adantes but might recommend a Dali or an ATC. 

It is also noble for both of these men to be fans of their products.

I have yet to put Tomic a Vandy 7 owner in the same room as Gr4blu a WP Sasha II owner and see who feels has the better speaker?

I don't hear Tomic yet say that the perfect piston Vandy driver trumps the reed paper cone of the WP, and I don't hear Greblu tell Tomic how the Wilson drivers are more musical than Carbon skined ones, and the Wilson X material is more inert than the double enclousure of the 7s.

Honestly it would be priceless.

The fact that cone material, crossover slope, cabinet construction is just some of the parts of that receipe that makes a great speaker, a great speaker.

A perfectly flat frequnecy response in speaker may not be prefered vs one that has some pleasing colorations, hence some people find very neutral speakers such as Magico or the Paradigm Pesonas not to their liking.

As per Gr4blu as usual add nothing to the discussion other than your blatent dislike of us, unless you have a relevant comment, not about shilling or dealers, you should go away.

This is a forum a place to discuss things about audio, not about protocall, or decorum or even good taste. 

At least Tomic is civil I respect his comments, where we disagree is his all out admiration for Vandersteen as a designer and innovator and at least we both agree that the Giya is a magical speaker.

We do like the Vandy 1C and 2C for what they offer for the price but do not fall under the spell of the more expensive models. We do have tremendous respect for the company. 


Back on track if you guys want to discuss what a great and affordable combination of the Adantes with the Naim Atom then you should chime in or other people who have heard them with complementary electronics should chime in.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ


you also seem deaf
i mentioned i would seek out a pair of the ELAC this week, i already own the Atom
its good but 2 dimensional, but i only have 50 hours on it
The Adante is like a cheeseburger to me
so we shall see......
i will give em a fair shake
something with your ever shifting definitions of innovation, revolution, “ true innovation” fail to do

yes good nite...