NAD M23 Stereo Amplifier: Best Amp Ever Bench Tested?!?

@djones51 

You are correct, NAD licensed the tech and manufactures their own modules.

What really grabbed my attention in the review was the fact that the amp's distortion was below the measuring capabilities of the test equipment and at or below the threshold of human hearing.

Odd that you needed to try them twice.

Have read dozens of reviews and this is the first time anyone has said that they sounded "like junk". Maybe you have issues with other parts of the system.

In any case, you make my point that there is no accounting for taste. Thanks.

@facten 

I looked briefly for it but didn't find it. If you find it, post a link.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

Yeah, twice, lol...

I don’t consider or buy audio components from manufacturers who won’t provide measurements. I screen products by their objective performance and if this data isn’t forthcoming, they are ignored. Those that publish and meet certain requirements are auditioned. That’s my approach. Many state of the art amp manufacturers publish their performance data. I look at such transparency as excellent customer service and appreciate companies that give the complete picture to their potential customers who value such data. Not everyone cares, which is their business. I do, and that’s mine.

Thanks for your opinion. Odd that you like the Rogue amp but the NAD is junk since they both have at their heart an amp designed by the same person. The Rogue is an earlier, older version and the NAD an improved design.

@facten 

The written article mentions at the end that he intends to publish a report on listening impressions later.

It would seem a little refresher of the rules of this forum are in order:

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@djones51 

I know, right?! Pretty amazing.

There is another class d amp coming out later this year for the diy crowd from Hypex that measures, so they say, even better than the Purifi. At this point though, I think we are entering the point of diminishing returns. Once it's below audibility, it's more an engineering exercise to keep improving the performance.

probably safe to say that NAD has moved on too in the last 20 years. It would sure seem so based on the review linked above.

@jerryg123

I said the Rogue uses an earlier Bruno Putzey’s amp, the ncore. Did you miss this?

Some Q&A With Designer / Owner Mark O’Brien
What Hypex module are you using in the Pharaoh II? Are the toroidal transformers different?

We use the new OEM version of the N-Core module

So how was I wrong?

It also uses a tube front end, which will degrade the performance of the ncore. Some like that tube distortion- seems you are one of them.

The ncore and purifi were, as I said, designed by the same person, the purifi being a later, improved design with slightly better performance.

So, how do you like the purifi?

@jerryg123

I said your amp uses the ncore. You said no, it’s new and improved. The text you added says it uses the ncore.  Sorry, I don’t follow.

By the way, the UCD was also designed by the same person who designed the ncore and purifi. Each iteration was an improvement. Glad to hear you are a Putzeys fan.

@thyname

How does posting a video link mean he's my idol?  No, I have heard it but do not own it.

@soix

We all screen/filter our purchases, be it by cost, class, power, etc. because we can’t listen to every product on the market. Objective performance is just one possible filter, though it also is a logical choice because measurements say a lot about how an amp will perform with one’s speakers, to some extent how it might sound based on its distortion spectra and distortion behavior.

Screening products on such a basis is rational, efficient, and in my experience, a meaningful and useful exercise. I want an amp that has enough power, adds as little as technically possible to the input signal, doesn’t change character with load, and will function without issue with my speaker’s impedence. Of course, once I am comfortable that it meets my objective needs, I listen and base my decision on that. So, yes, my ears are exactly the final arbiter...Sure, I could take your advice and ignore the specs, just audition willy nilly, find out the hard way that the amp won’t meet my objective needs, and waste a lot of time and money. Now that would surely be sad. No thanks.

@thyname 

I am between amps at the moment, shopping for 6 channels for an active 3 way system. I have owned a lot of amps over the years.

@jerryg123 

Gee, if you don't like Putzey amps, why the Rogue?

@facten 

I haven't heard the NAD M23 but I have owned and heard other Putzey designed amps, UCD, Ncore, and Purifi over the years. I have found that Ncore and Purifi are very similar with more refinement in the higher frequencies with Purifi. Neither really has "a sound". They are very neutral, by design.

@mapman 

It’s valid to listen to something and say you didn’t like what you heard but that alone does not make it “junk”.

One needs to consider the source, as it were, and discount accordingly.

@soix

As much as audio is a science it’s also an art, and the art is how the equipment ultimately matches with our tastes and unique hearing abilities that IMO cannot all be measured but must be experienced.

I agree with that to a point, that is why I don’t do this:

Then, we’re also able to glean that if the vast majority of reviewers and customers say that something exhibits the sound qualities we’re looking for it’s also worth exploring

I don’t waste my time with other’s subjective opinion. See above.


Sure, I might miss out on something but that is a possibility no matter if I filter by performance or by what other’s think. The difference is performance is a factual metric that can be compared, ranked, etc. Other people’s opinions are usually all over the board and are never based on the amp in my system in my room. I find their value less than marginal.

@curtdr 

I'd bet the NAD is far from junk...  maybe it ain't to one's taste, but it ain't junk.

Of course it isn't. Like I said, consider the source.

@soix

I don’t use one or the other to the complete exclusion of the other. Like I said, I have fundamental requirements that must be met before I can even consider what an amp sounds like- why would I listen to a 2 watt SET when I need 500 watts? Why would I want an amp with a load dependent frequency response? Why would I waste time listening to an amp that has audible distortion products?

As I said, no matter how you choose, you can’t listen to them all and may miss something. That’s something we all must live with. At least I know that those that have been vetted will indeed work with my system requirements and are thus viable candidates.

@facten 

My apologies- what I meant to say was I have not heard the m23 in MY system. I heard it briefly at a friend's place. Sorry for the confusion. All the purifi and ncore amps I have heard and/or owned over the years have had a very similar character which as I said, wasn't a surprise.

@twoleftears

The problem is that the acolytes of Amir and Gene listen with their eyes, not their ears.

That's a gross mischaracterization. They do objective reviews which are widely respected and appreciated.

Let’s be clear: it’s only a problem for those who either don’t find any value in measurements because they simply don’t understand them or don’t have the ability to understand that people are entitled to their own opinions. No need to insult those whose opinions differ.

Bruno designed the Rogue amplifiers? 

Thought Mark did, shoot better tell Mark.

Bruno designed the amp module which is the heart of the amplifier.

@kairosman 

Now have a CODA CSiB integrated (Class A/B, first 12 watts in Class A)

I owned a CODA amp many years ago that did the same thing- class A for the first 10 watts or so, then class A/B. I ended up replacing it with a Spectron Musician II class d amp.

@mapman 

Right on the mark.

@twoleftears 

Only in the most superficial way...The spec wars of Japanese transistor amps were based on a false premise...The science and engineering has improved in the last 50 years. See:
 

"The other important trend in the 60’s was brought on by the usurpation of the role of the vacuum tube by the transistor. Japanese hifi firms hadn’t seen much success with their tube-based designs in the early 60’s.But with the advent of the transistor Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony, Sherwood, Kenwood, and Sansui, all entered the US market with products whose specifications far exceeded those of US-made tube-based components. Of course 20-20 hindsight shows that these specifications used THD or total harmonic distortion figures rather than breaking down the harmonic distortion into 1st, 2nd, 3d, and 4th order harmonics. If they had, audiophiles would have seen how the distortion characteristics of early transistors were much worse at higher odd-order harmonics than tubes. Many audiophiles switched from tube electronics to solid-state electronics and discovered that the sonic results weren’t a step up in quality or enjoyment."

@jerryg123

Also it is interesting that the majority of owners of separates utilizing Class D power amplification are using Tubed Preamplifiers like LTA, A-S, AR, SUPRATEK. Quick Silver, on and on.

How do you know that the majority of class d amp users using a preamp are using tubed preamplifiers? No doubt many do, without question, but I don’t see how you can make this claim. Lots of people like the kind of distortion put out by many types of tube amps/preamps and feel the need to add such. Others choose class d because of lack of such distortion and the last thing they want to do is add something they are trying to get away from.

So Mark is behind the success and makes Bruno’s module sound good.

That’s certainly one way to look at it. I tend to look at it differently.

I don’t use a tube preamp with class D amps, kind of defeats the point of getting class D. I don’t want a damn tube in a DAC either. If you want tubes then buy tube amps.

My feeling too....But don't worry, from what I hear in another thread, in the future no one will be buying tubes because everyone will have decided that class d sounds better.

@jerryg123 

There is no better, there is only different, when it comes to opinions of taste. Tubes sound better to you, great. They don't sound better to everyone, as proven by @djones51.  Our preferences are determined by experience, learning, and the biases we form.

@mirolab 

The M23 used the latest Purifi amp modules vs the older Hypex ncore modules in the M22.

@mirolab 


And yet, Stereophile said this about the M22:

Conclusions
Overall, NAD's Masters Series M22 power amplifier acquitted itself with distinction. Despite its small size, it has all the wallop necessary for staggering volume levels, and, if necessary, can be bridged to meet even more outsize demands. At $3000, the M22 is more than fair value in view of its compact size, excellent build quality, a tolerance for driving difficult loads, and, most of all, its transparent sound. It is an outstanding amplifier in every way, and I could happily live with it.
 

@prefab 

I disagree. Specs can tell you if your amp has enough power for your speakers. They can tell you if your amp will handle the impedance of your speakers. Specs can tell you if the character of the sound will change with the changing impedance of your speakers. Specs can tell you if what you are hearing is signal or distortion. Specs can tell you how efficient your amp is and how much energy you are wasting if you leave it on. Maybe none of that matters to you and perhaps ignorance is bliss. To a great many it is all relevant information that can be used to improve the performance of an audio system as well as lead to more accurate and enjoyable listening experiences.

@bill_k


Please don’t misunderstand my comments- I am not saying that one should chose equipment based solely on measured performance. I agree, one must ultimately decide with one’s own ears. I am simply pointing out that specs, far from being useless, actually can add a great deal to making an intelligent choice that ultimately can lead to more subjective enjoyment.

Some will argue that certain measurements will indeed provide some indications on how something will sound- it has been shown by empirical studies that certain types of distortion is found to be pleasing to many, among other things. The success of amps with these types and patterns of distortion, typically certain types of tube amps, and ss amps that have been engineered to mimic these distortion profiles, are indeed successful in the marketplace. But so are others which take a different approach so while we can perhaps find certain sonic tendencies correlated to measurements, they are no guarantee of universal appeal.

It doesn’t make sense to chose solely on specs, nor solely on what we hear. It’s a thoughtful use of both that can be the most beneficial.

👍