I originally posted this in a thread in the Speakers forum. It's more appropriate here:
As a former audio dealer and long time Audiogon member who has walked the tightrope I will say that, while I do not have a problem with dealers posting on Audiogon, I do feel that there are some basic rules that should be observed, both by the dealer and by everyone else:
For dealers: 1- Clearly announce that you are a dealer 2- Try to be helpful, objective and educational 3- Understand that an Audiogon forum IS NOT a sales venue 4- If you mention or recommend on of your products, mention again that you are a dealer for this product so that it's clearly understood that you have a finalcial interest in your recommendation 5- Don't trash the competition or other brands
For Audiogon members: 6- Don't complain about dealers posting in Audiogon forums. They are A'gon members like anyone else. If you don't want to read dealer posts them just don't read them 7- Just because a dealer makes a recommendation in which he/she has a financial interest does not automatically make it a bad recommendation. If the dealer comment is in the spirit of the discussion and or answers a question then it's probably appropriate, IMO 8- Dealers, well *many* dealers, have a lot of experience that most just audiophiles do not have. If a dealer is posting to be helpful to the group and not just trying to sell stuff then take advantage of that experience. Their answers to your questions will guide you as to whether they are interested in being helpful members of the Audiogon community or just pushing gear.
I hope that this is helpful guidance. Just my opinions...
I don’t recall anyone asking you for your opinion, Elizabeth.
Isn't this exactly the forum attitude Elizabeth was commenting on?
I'm not a moderator but as far as I'm concerned anyone should be able to comment on any audio topic at any time. The day I'm told I need to wait to be asked for my opinion is the day I'm Audiogon gone .
i have been using Agon - it’s forums and marketplace to improve my sound systems at home for over 15 years. I have educated myself on improving my audio listening enjoyment beyond my wildest dreams. I am happy that both audiophiles and dealers and manufacturers participate in the forums and marketplace. I am just a middle aged white guy enjoying his hobby! I need the advice and can decide myself which ‘advice’ is worth taking with or without the ‘scarlet letter’ for the dealers.
I am am grateful for the education I get here. I got an old pair of Maggie’s updated by Peter Gunn based on a comment from Elizebeth. They sound amazing by the way! I found my Krell dealer because of an ad in the marketplace. He sold me my second Krell and then on getting my LUMIN D1 four years ago! I just upgraded my amplification on one system - again finding the dealer here on Agon. Nonoise is helping me address an intermittent ‘glare issue’ in my system - reference the MC 0.5 Power conditioner.
Go with the ‘Scarlett Letter’ for dealers or not - but keep all the voices on the forums.
The dealers who post here for the most part have an educated appreciative light touch which they use conservatively.
The elephant in the room is the one who always puts the heavy heavy hand on the wrong note. A number of times I've turned to a thread on a subject I was interested in and found this dealer made nearly half the posts unrelentingly defending what he had to say to every other poster. I also had dealings with the seller before I knew his sobriquet and when he realized I did not have the money he thought I had soon coldly lost interest in me. Others who knew they weren't getting even a Hershey bar from me have been generous with their knowledge because they loved what they were doing and realized I was very serious about how I enjoyed my music.
I have found dealers respect these threads except for the one we have been discussing. Could you imagine if we had more like him? The PR bloat would sink every conversation.
As long as they are transparent about being dealers, as well as which lines they sell and don’t sell, I think dealers can be additive to the discussion. I’m sure it is hard to be objective, though, talking about equipment you can’t sell vs what you can sell.
What bugs me more is *any* contributor who thinks that because they heard one model of one brand, perhaps not even recently, that they have the “expertise and experience” to tell you how all the models sound and will interact with other equipment. I don’t buy it. Several dealers’ characterizations of my equipment have been wildly off the mark to me. Subjectively, of course, but that’s exactly they reason they are unlikely to get that kind of speculation right. I even saw two dealers get the specs wildly wrong on equipment they supposedly knew well.
But I wouldn’t ban anyone for it. Everyone talks book. Everyone. So their book should be visible.
I think dealers/manufacturers should post here. They can give a lot of insight. Ralph Karsten is a good example. As are Tim and Krissy.
And, I also believe that users of their products should be able to heap accolades on those products if warranted.
Man, over the years on this site, I have touted Ralph’s 60-watt mono amps plenty of times. I had them in the system for a few years and loved them. I’d like to try them again today ... after a good liberal treatment with TC and Omega E Mats. *lol*
Doesn't Audio Circle avoid all of this by denoting a member as a dealer when they participate in their forums? It's never quelled, muzzled, censored or silenced anyone. They also have sections dedicated to specific dealers and their wares. Seems like a no biggie to me. Everyone has a voice and everyone knows who everyone is.
Yes audiocircle does have manufacturer forums, but mostly they are for true fans of the products THAT manufacturer makes. If one posts any negative experiences they can/are banned from the forum by the moderator who is the rep or owner of said manufacturer. How do I know? Because I was one owner who was banned for being truthful about my experiences with three products. Therefore they are not really forums, in the sense of shared opinions, both negative and positive in nature. They stand as more advertising than forums...
2psyops, Sorry to hear that. When you think about it, it's funny that dealers/manufacturers would do that on the one hand, and yet still want the freedom to post even if it crosses the line.
If one can't separate their job from their hobby, then all bets are off.
Now that I know that, don't they still have dealers identify themselves on the regular forums? If not, then this is all moot and won't likely be settled any time soon.
Nonoise- Another interesting tidbit on a particular manufacturer and his forum on Audiocircle. I had a very bad experience with him and his equipment and from time to time shared those truthful comments with objectivity and honesty with other AC members and got banned. Years later I forgot about it, but recently I had received a private message from someone who got very burned by this same manufacturer and wanted to know if he had a chance to get his money back! I had thought (mistakenly) that said company would have changed it’s business model, or service or parts to give better customer service in all those passing years. I was wrong....
I like an open forum and enjoy hearing from manufacturers and dealers.
If Audiotroy toned his rhetoric down a bit that would be great. The problem is his comments frequently sound confrontational. As I mentioned before, it’s not what he says as much as how he says it.
But still, I’d hate to see anyone banned for speaking their piece. I can always ignore posts that might bother me.
From a different perspective: As a car dealer if I am giving general automotive advice I do not disclose I'm a car dealer. I want the information I share to be evaluated on its own merit and not be tainted because I am a dealer. Even in these posts, some have suggested that dealers should be banned. To me that's ludicrous. I am a big boy and can parse advice whether from a dealer or an avid audiophile. However, if I'm discussing brands I represent I will start with "As a car dealer..."
I have no problem with any dealer or manufacturer posting anything they want. I always keep both eyes open when reading anything from them, and I find their extensive knowledge is extremely helpful, Audiotroy among them. Some people on here get really pissed when they post, but I think they're informative. Yes, they have a financial interest, but isn't that obvious? You can still learn something.
Dealers voices are invaluable imo. I don't care if they are representing certain lines. For those who are pained by it why not just ignore it. I never heard of Audiotroy before being on this site. He has strong opinions and yes he is most knowledgeable on the products he sells. I live in Arizona. I ended up visiting his setup in New Jersey. I have purchased numerous items from them. Just because he represents Paradigm doesn't mean I have to buy or even like. It does provide me options on components to consider. I have purchased components from dealers all around the US.
Nothing makes everybody happy. I think dealers should be tarred and not feathered, rather made to listen to the speakers they sell at high volume for long periods of time.
Interesting thread. How is a dealer shilling their products different than one of us waxing on about a piece we have on auction sites? I rarely sell, much to my brides dismay, but have seen posts on here that seem to align with offerings elsewhere.
The difference between dealers shilling their gear is completely different from individuals waxing poetic about our gear or gear we want. It's only a couple of folks on this forum who are using it for commercial purposes.
There are always going to be differing opinions on anything as it's audio and so subjective. It's a nice discussion point, but nothing will change and may not really need to. JMHO
You are absolutely right. Audiophiles waxing poetic about their gear is about passion for the hobby. Dealers doing it (in the forum) is about making money....big difference.
You guys are pretty tough on dealers. Soon there won't be any dealers. Very soon. Then you can rely on the advice of guys that own 50 year old Advent speakers and Pioneer receivers. They can give you advice on 50K speakers.
As a dealer my advice on audiogon was based not just on products I carried, but from my listening experience to lots of gear I had listened to at both the CES the RMAF.
If I were asking a dealer for advice I would want to know if they go to these shows and if so what rooms they like and why they like those rooms. Dealers who go to shows hopefully to listen for what they think is the best sound they can offer to their clients at price points of their clients. Dealers can be expected to consider whether the products will have the support of the manufacture/distributor and advertising is often a deciding factor.
Personally I struggled with that advertising issue. Few of the products I carried were heavily advertised or even advertised at all. I often chose the sound over the advertising.
There are a lot of dealers that really believe in their products for good reasons.
With all due respect, think you might have miss the point of a lot of the posters on this thread. Most are not against ALL dealers that post in this forum, just the ones....ONE who posts daily pushing his products and dismissing products he doesn't carry, then arguing with posters that don't agree with him.
Again, pushy dealers with one purpose only (in the forum) are the real offenders. Dealers the post occasionally with good advise are a real asset.
I have few qualms about dealers posting on forums. It’s up to me whether I find their posts useful or not.
That said, and especially having been back in the speaker market again over the past few years, I can not remember a dealer who has ever offered me advice of any worth. Even the nicest most well-meaning dealers.
First, they have something to sell, so their view is inevitably skewed towards those products.
Second...I don’t care how much experience they’ve had with gear they sell and others. They’ve come to their own conclusions and those are not my conclusions. When they are talking about gear I know and have heard, I often don’t agree with their take on it, or if I do then they haven’t added anything to my own. (Even in the speaker forum a certain dealer-in-question who has posted a description of a speaker I've auditioned, and it didn't match what I heard at all. I have no reason to rely on such accounts).
When I go gear shopping I’ve done my homework and I bring a lifetime of audiophile experience in knowing what I’m looking for. I don’t need a dealer to say a darned thing; I just need to hear the gear for myself. Nothing the dealer says matters at all if the gear doesn’t meet my standards and criteria.
Dealers opinions could be useful as long as they can resist the temptation to push their own stock. Pretty daunting task I’d say, unless you are lucky enough to operate outside of any financial concerns.
Then there’s the issue of watching passively as someone chooses a clearly inferior product when a better alternative is readily available. Or worse, going elsewhere. Some may find it easy, some might prefer watching train wrecks. Totally beyond me.
As a control freak I’d prefer to be at the design end, no strings attached. Just turning out the best product I could at the given price range.
Of course, that runs the risk of doubting your own sanity if it fails to sell, but at least that way you might finally get the sound that you’ve always been after.
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