WC, can anything $12k or under beat the Luxman class A 590AXii Integrated in your opinion? Separates or INT?
much respect for history vid! Especially loved pics from small apt. Kickass |
Dac instead of Preamp?
i have mentioned a few things about this, but today i wanted to give a few pointers when trying to make a decision about using a DAC as a preamp:
1. YOU MUST BUY THE BEST POWERCORD YOU CAN AFFORD FOR THE DAC
2. Power conditioners HELP BIG TIME when you detect a bit of brightness coming through. They help taming the top end while still allowing for a lot of information to come through
3. DO NOT under ANY circumstances overlook your interconnects. I recommend smooth sounding interconnects such as wireworld platinum for example.
4. Before you go and buy a dac to use as a preamp, PLEASE MAKE SURE you look at the gain you have on the amps you own. For instance, my Gryphon has 31db of gain which means it does not need a ton of juice to get loud. Most amps average 26db, but i would recommend amps that have more gain than the average 26db.
5. Speaker efficiency is also VERY IMPORTANT. If a speaker is hard to drive, it needs a commanding power amp that will rely on a great preamp/dac to control it. If the dac you choose is a mismatch with your amp and your speakers are hard to drive, THIS WILL NOT WORK.
Remember those 5 pointers above when choosing a dac as a preamp. Avoid straining the DAC's volume control as much as possible (meaning having to turn it way up to get enough volume going) or it will result in brightness. Hope this helps!
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kren
it depends who you ask. i know some people who would prefer the pass labs int250 over the luxman 590mk2. i personally find the luxman better tonally speaking. The pass int250 would be able to drive tougher loads, but the bass was too loose in my opinion.
Can anything under 12k beat the luxman 590? hmmm... if i go by what i have owned, i don't think so to be honest. Not even separates that msrp for a total of 12k for the amp/preamp. |
Thanks WC. I really meant it about how awesome that vid was too. The reason I liked those small apt photos best is that it (I assume anyway) shows that when you started this awesome journey you were not super wealthy, and lived in a small one bedroom like most of us did at some point in our lives. Respect. |
thank you kren. i am glad you enjoyed it. |
Hi @keithr,
As class ab ss, I love the simaudio 870a w my hailey 2.2s. If u could find one used (rare, I know) the price would be right. I know wc enjoyed the 860a and may have further thoughts given it has a bit less power. Hope u are enjoying the speakers!
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WC,
I heard more of everything including HF from the AQ Niagara vs Shunyata Denali. Are you now saying (pointer 2) that the Niagara reduces HF compared to not using it?
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Power conditioners help tame down the bite of high frequencies...if your digital rig is too bright, this could help.
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Agreed , power conditioners and noise reducing powercords do remove the « high frequency hash » which clarifies the sound. I believe Shunyata does it without rolling the highs.
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Well guys,
tonight is one of those nights where the music is taking me away. I have been sitting here for about 3 hours listening to music and i keep going song after song and after song around 85db. The full momentum setup has me floating right now with delicacy, musicality, fullness, impact, clarity. The funny thing is that i sat down around noon today to listen to it and it was bright as hell and right now, at 12 midnight it doesn’t not sound bright anymore. Some might say it is because of the whole "grid" conversation or less devices being used in the house, etc, etc. Really interesting to say the least.
One comment i can make about the momentum components is that they don’t sweep you off your feet in the first 15 min of listening, but something happens to your brain and ears around 30 min into the listening presentation. It is as if it pulls you in and then you are engaged into what it is doing. More to come on this. |
@whitecamaross
WC thank you for hard work and insights.its been a pleasure reading all this.
can you please share your view/opinion/ratings/ranking on top 3 or top 5 integrated amps you have heard from say 9k to 15k USD
i can throw in some names if you want but feel free to add or omit any of these.
pass labs int 60, pass labs int 250, simaudio 600i v2, 700i v2, luxman L509x (class AB), luxman 590 AXii (class A), gryphon 120, gryphon 300, boulder 866, ayre ax-5 etc.
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Well guys,
If all goes well, we might be reviewing another top end dac soon. I can't say too much but it will be a great move for me. I am also receiving a pair of Monos next week which some of you might be really interested in. Stay tuned :) |
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I can’t imagine anything topping the Vivaldi and upsampler combo, so will be intresting. Not sure we’ve heard your take on the Dag combo yet. You’re going to have to up the pace of the videos to keep up with the pace of new equipment, lol, I just purchased a pair of the Rel model 25 subs, and have an eye on the Praadigm Sub2. Was one on Audiogon, but he’s pulled the listing, was a strange deal, I did make a couple of offers. Thinking of talking to the local dealer and seeing if there’s a deal to be had. Not even sure where I’d use them all, was planning on putting the rels in the theater room with the svs pb16s For four total. Or maybe add to the sashas, and add the paradigm to the theater room. |
Not sure why you would want more bass than what the Sasha's have ...my DAW have tremendous bass but I am using great amps... |
mostly for the home theater system which I have Tekton Ulferberhts for as mains. Those are claimed to be giant killers, unfortunately I won’t be able to find out until November. Right now I guess I’m just collecting gear until I can get back into my home and set everything up. |
A couple of updates:
well things are crazy busy right now. I have the following coming this week:
1. A pair of monos that i have previously owned
2. A JVC NX7 projector that replaces my epson 6050
3. Audience XLR's on trial from a dealer
4. Valhalla 2 XLRs to use from my dac into my preamp
5. A brand of XLRs that are supposed to rival Nordost Odin1.
With that said, i believe i am approaching the end of my run with the best dac i have personally owned: DCS Vivaldi. I am in the middle of finalizing something that will send it to a new home and which will allow me to play with the Rossini DAC with the matching Rossini clock for a little bit until i zoom in on the next DAC which i have not selected yet. Possibly MSB? EMM Labs? no clue yet.
I am also having thoughts in my head that i might be coming up on the end of my run with the Gryphon Colosseum. This thought is tough for me to think about, but once my mind begins to tell me things, it usually ends up in me doing exactly just that.
On top of all of that, i have yet to give my momentums a full battle vs the Luxman preamp/Gryphon. SO MUCH GOING ON ! |
I’m not sure how you have time to work, etc with just what you’ve spent on time on the audio end of things. Must be like the energizer bunny. |
Yes you can say that...I need a vacation |
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This thread is the GOAT...
One question though?
WHO IS THE FEMALE ARTIST IN YOUR LATEST VIDEO? |
"lost without you" by Freya Ridings |
Thank you very much Jay. I’ve been following your thread since 2016. Hats off to you. To stay this dedicated to a hobby that haunts you...
I know the feeling, just don’t have the means to follow through to the last note....
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The Dag preamp/amp combo is outstanding. I went back to the video of the same song with the ARC ref 6E or Lux C900u preamps with the Lux M900u amp. The Dag combo is far more focused and detailed than the Lux combo. The recording is schizophrenic with the voice raspy and raw, while the piano is mushy and veiled. The Dag is still coherent, while much more palpable, immediate and transparent. Many people will want to get rid of the raspy voice quality by rolling off HF, using mushy tube electronics and smoothed over cables like Cardas. However, the raspiness will still be apparent, and the piano will turn into a lake of whipped cream. You just have to accept the recording for what it is, don't play it too loud, and enjoy the bulk of its content most with the pristine and coherent clarity of the Dag.
On the previous video, we heard the superior clarity of the Dag preamp compared to Ayre and Lux preamps. Now, the total clarity has been enhanced by the Dag amp. This is NOT synergy--it just is the fact that each piece is detailed by itself, and the additive detail with transparency is wonderful. Right now, the 2 best amps you have are the Dag and Gryphon, so do a video using the best preamp, Dag, with the Dag and Gryphon amps. You will want to make a decision as to which amp, Dag or Gryphon is best. The Lux combo is for the whipped creamers, so don't confuse the clarity issue by using a whipped cream preamp (Lux) with a detailed/coherent amp (Gryphon) vs the whole Dag combo. The whole Dag combo will win in every important way, but I cannot foresee whether the Dag combo will beat the Dag preamp + Gryphon. If the Dag + Gryphon beats the Dag combo for clarity, then you will know that using the same brand of preamp + amp is less important than finding the most revealing of each component, unless you deliberately like to introduce whipped cream and call it synergy nirvana.
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There V-man goes again, trying to re-write history. WC has clearly stated that in a head-to-head shootout that the Luxman pre is better than the Dag, but here comes Mr “I’ve never heard any of these in person” telling WC that the Dag preamp is better.
Sad. He just cannot accept WC’s truth. Sad.
Please go watch WC’s verdict on the Luxman, Ayre and Dag again. I know it will be hard for you. Clarity is not most important to WC. Sound quality is, and he says Luxman>>>Dag (even as he admits Dag has better clarity yet still loses).
Deal with it ... and don’t try to rewrite history on WC’s thread. |
Don’t be a Virtualsplainer.
If you’ve never heard a component in person, don’t Vitualsplain to WC or anyone else about what they heard or should think about the component.
Let WC’s conclusions (like Luxman is better than Dag) stand on their own. It’s his thread.
Don’t be V-man the Virtualsplainer
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kren0006
You're wasting your breath. V-man knows more than everybody here, more than the manufacturers and dealers, he can tell you about any amp by looking at the pictures, and damn he can even hear thru WC's ears.
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I have a hard time understanding how anyone can come to any conclusion about any type of sound quality via a you-tube channel. Without first hand listening experience... the whole point is moot! |
Although the video sound quality is inferior to WC's actual system heard in his room, it is good enough to form comparative judgments, so the truth is that I have HEARD these components. And WC's findings about objective sound characteristics match my own, but he is still in a quandary about what he values most--clarity, or sweet sound. He recognizes the superior clarity of the Dag preamp, but chose the Lux based on its sweet sound. But many times he says that clarity is a high priority for him. It is evident that he loves the Dag combo in the most recent video. Based on that, my last post is simply an objective guide if he wants to prioritize clarity.
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I don’t know enough about who uses what equipment to record with for their videos, but I do know jay said he uses his phone. I know I’ve heard way better on other videos, but that’s guys doing it for a living. I do have problems telling much on some of the videos, other than direct differences between some of the matchups. On some of the videos I’ve heard better from a 1980s fm radio, lol. Some of the videos it’s much clearer, not sure what makes the difference if using the same device for all. Jays voice is always clear, and I’m guessing that the volume of the music is blowing out the phones microphones capabilities. I might ask some of the youtubers that I help sponsor through Patreon what equipment they are using if I ever want make one of my system |
@viber6
Last year you criticized me for describing my Simaudio 870a amp as having an 'almost tube like midrange and top end'. The following was your response to me.
"All the tube products I mentioned have widely varying types of sound. Because of this, I think people need to be specific about sound character, rather than saying something is "tube-like." I believe the common perception of tubes is that they are mellow and laid back with that "magic." By this definition, you could say that the ref 10 is more tube-like than ref 6, the Lampi Pacific with the PX4 tube is more tube-like than with the 300B. But is the Pacifc with 300B still "tube-like" compared to SS DAC's such as the Ayre, or is the Pacific/300B more precise and upfront than the Ayre? Then that would made the Ayre more "tube-like" than the Pacific/300B. So, since there are tube products like ref 6 and Pacific/300B with upfront, sharp and snappy qualities, I think this common definition of "tube-like" should be scrapped in favor of more informative descriptions of sound."
So now a year later you are describing the Luxman combo's sound as "whipped cream" and here's how you described the Ayre preamp "The Ayre preamp #2 was an overpriced dog drowning in whipped cream."
Is that what you meant when you said "I think this common definition of "tube-like" should be scrapped in favor of more informative descriptions of sound."?
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No.
WC is 100% clear that the Luxman preamp is better than the Dag. There is no quandry, no matter how much you wish there was. The Luxman is better, according to WC, who has INFINITELY more experience than you with hi-end gear.
I know that doesn't fit your narrative of how the world of audio should shake out. Too bad. You lose on this thread.
Go start your own thread and review the Benchmark and Mytek and that equalizer your used to drone on about (thank you for stopping, btw).
WC is 100% clear that Luxman is better than D'Agostino in that video, and that was the whole purpose of the video.
Enough with the "alternative facts." |
To clarify...Jay did NOT say that the Lux C900 is better than the Dag Pre-Amp. He suggested that with those particular amps he used that he preferred the sound of the C900. The Synergy was better. He did not say that the Luxman Combo was better than the Dag Combo. |
He said in that particular shootout, the whole point of which was to compare three preamps and the only time the Lux and Dag have been directly compared against each other with everything else constant, that that Lux was clearly better than the Dag.
That is all we have to go on officially according to WC. Of course all of the usual caveats apply as always ( room, amp, cables, conditioner, whatever else). With top of line everything else held constant in that shootout, WC was clear that Luxman preamp was best.
Also, V likes to say the Lux is colored or lacks clarity. That cannot be true according to WC because WC states clarity is very important.
And still WC says Lux wins.
maybe there should be a shootout between the two preamps with the Dag amp. If the more expensive Dag preamp could win that matchup on home turf, then we would have an instance in WCs vids of Dag beating Lux.
But so far we do not have anything of the sort according to the only dude in the room. The rest of us are just listening on our stupid iPhones. |
Different people describe things in their own words, and I think we have more than enough history to have a decent understanding of Jays descriptions. It should be fairly easy to follow what someone means without asking them to word it the same way we might have ourselves. If still in doubt, ask for clarification. I’m sure most are happy to respond. I would agree that there are very few people who have a more thorough first hand knowledge of high end audio products then Jay, other than some professional reviewers maybe. Now, let’s get back to discussing the toys. |
kren0006 has a solid point here. I must agree with him on that matter. WC’s video and opinion was clear the Lux preamp was synergistically better than the D’Agostino.
WC, great move on the Valhalla 2 xlr. In my experience, those should give you a richer and denser midrange than the Odin 1 xlr without sacrifying resolution.
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ron17,
Good points. The common understanding of "tube-like" is that it is soft, rolled off in HF, sweet midrange. Ironically, on the video with the Lux M900u amp, I thought the ARC ref 6SE sounded more precise and detailed than the Lux C900u as preamps. I have always heard more precision in ARC tube equipment than other tube equipment such as Conrad Johnson. There are many SS electronics that are designed to have that soft, mellow type sound, and others that are designed to be as neutral and revealing as possible. Same goes for tube electronics. On a spectrum from mellow to precise, the tube spectrum is downshifted to more mellow than the SS spectrum, although the spectra overlap somewhat, with the ARC ref 6SE closer to the precise end than the Lux C900u, at least with my limited listening from the videos. The Lux still seems closer than the Ayre preamp to the precise end. So now I’ve scrapped the phrase "tube like" in favor of "whipped cream" which is better understood. So far, from my listening, the Dag combo and individual preamp seem most precise, with the Lux having some whipped cream, and the Ayre even more whipped cream. But all these assessments are relative, and I am interested to see whether the Dag or the Gryphon amp has some whipped cream compared to the other. We’ll see and hear.
Sure, the videos are not as revealing as the actual sound in WC’s room, but he asks us to listen carefully to get our impressions. This is a fair proposition, since most of us cannot otherwise hear what is happening in his room. It works, if you are willing to listen and concentrate hard.
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According to reviews, the series 2 of the entire Nordost line is more mellow than the series 1. WC said that the Odin 1 had more HF than the Odin 2 (I forgot which cable or power cord he was referring to), although he preferred the Odin 2 overall. So it is a little apples/oranges comparison between the series 2 Valhalla and series 1 Odin.
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My only point is let’s not bastardize WC’s conclusions.
I couldn’t care less which brand wins, but I don’t want some wannabe twisting WC’s clear conclusions for his stupid ideological egotrips.
I just wanna know how WC rates the things and the clearer he is, the better. That’s why I really pressed him on the Lux integrated recently, for instance.
He had stated in a video that it was one of three best amps for the money (with m900u and Gryphon). So that told me conclusively according to him that nothing beat it at $9k (it’s msrp).
But then I asked him then specifically if anything (integrated or separates) under $12k could beat it, and he clearly stated “no” according to things he’s owned. I chose $12k because I knew he just had the $12k Pass integrated, and without me even asking for that comparison in his response he stated that he thought Lux better.
That’s valuable info and great starting point for someone in the market at those dollar amounts.
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Im certainly hoping your not referring to me above.. Not to Rain on your parade BUT my Comment was made DIRECTLY after having a personal exchange with the OP which HE initiated AFTER you posted your comment proclaiming Luxman is better than DAG. I am not the one who is misunderstanding anything. |
Correct, not referring to you. Only to Viber, who is a good guy I think but I really hate when he directly states things opposite of WC, that’s all. |
I agree with riaa. When the OP declares a winner in a shootout I know he's referring to what he prefers in his room with his current components, cabling, speakers etc.... I don't think he would ever say without a doubt the Luxman combo is better than the Dag combo. He might say for the $ the Luxman combo is a better buy....
@viber6
I once heard a system that had a real pepperminty sound.
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I personally have little experience with tube amps. I have recently tried I to expand my horizons by dipping into them. I went to a local dealer with the intention of listening to and purchasing a Prima Luna Evo 400. I was expecting to hear that mello, 3d and some sort of magic sound. I was greatly dissapointed. I really didn’t hear anything g special at all, just sound, and nothing I couldn’t have gotten from an under 1k Marantz, maybe not even as good as that. They carried Octave as well. So I listed to a V70. Ehhh, nothing really great either, though it did have something different. Finally they said they had a McIntosh hybrid( never thought I’d consider McIntosh). The MC352. Wow. Huge difference. Someone took the sheet and the bedspeard off the speakers. Cleaner, clearer, just more of everything. More bass, more highs, more mids, and super clean and detailed. I play the guitar, so I know what a tube amp sounds like vs solid state with those. At no point did any of these give me a tube like sound, unless tube equates to less, which I cannot believe based on what others have said. Another client came in who wanted to hear a specific speaker, so we tried amps for me, and speakers for him. Strange thing is he felt the Prima Luna was something special. This is a case of we are both listening to the exact same thing at the exact same time, and have welding different experiences with what we heard. I guess one mans whipped cream is another mans whisky sour, lol. I did end up purchasing the mcintosh.
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McIntosh is hard to beat these days. PrimaLuna and Octave are just babies compared to Mac and it’s long time history.
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Nobody ever claimed that WC or anyone stated the Lux combo was better than the Dag combo. That’s a red herring.
Focus was always on preamp alone as to the three way shootout with other features held constant.
I mentioned in passing that WC declared m900u one of three best ever amps for the money that he has owned, which he clearly stated, but that was only for completeness in making a point about the 590axii.
I never said anything about a combo comparison. |
I didnt mean JUST the combo. He doesnt believe he ever said the Luxman Pre was better than the Dag Pre except in that particular instance/shootout. He believes HIS words are being twisted and misconstrued. Maybe you should send him a private message so you get on the same page. |
Oh I see. Okay, sure. That’s fair. Just in that one shootout. Yes, that’s what I meant as well. Didn’t mean to imply broader than that.
But to be also fair, that’s the only such comparison we have.
If there were another where the Lux were clearly beaten by the Dag according to WC I’d obviously have no problem with that.
But to conclude what got me going was V coming on and saying the Dag was WC’s best preamp (go read his words) when in the only shootout they’ve ever been compared in by WC, WC found the Lux the clear winner.
I think we can all agree on that at least. |
If you go back a year or so (Dont bother) when I had the Dag 400's Viber pretty much said they were overpriced "jewelry" and thats all you were paying for...not performance. And here he is talking them up....go figure. Sometimes its just best to "tune out" certain people and bypass their comments. Dementia runs in my family too...Cant wait till I turn into Viber Jr. When I start praising PS AUDIO Gear somebody please put me out of my misery.
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Funny. If I ever start going back in the bowels of the thread searching for Viber statements to satisfy a curiosity, PLEASE off me!
in all seriousness tho, I never intend to be mean or personal with my posts, although sometimes I’m sure I come off that way. I am admittedly sensitive to V’s rants, I should just ignore (he’d probably say same of me).
In real life I’m super easy to get along with, haha.
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So what you’re saying is, none of us are a good candidate to star in a Jackass reboot? |
