My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

I think that the biggest offender that color the sound in speakers are

GRILLCLOTHS…

especially those orangy - rust colored ones from the early 70’s.

Jay, your system has gone to a completely different level. Before, you could always easily tell you were listening to a microphone recording of a system playing. It is sounding so good now, this is no longer clear. Two thumbs way up.

Holy hand grenades Batman, it’s not just the footers that are in place…. It’s the whole enchilada!  POW!  Knocked me right out of my socks!!!

Really sounds great…

I see, while I was writing and prior to posting that @thezaks does not think that this is a "Butt-Kicking" so that evens things out for the start:

2-2

Oh, and before this goes to far...  are you accepting the wager?

New polling request...

"What qualifies as a butt-kicking?"

The stage is set:

1 challenge with 3 samples taken as a whole.

 Do these combined results qualify as a "Butt-kicking"?  

Interested readers want to know?

The data:

presentation 1:  45-55% -- 20% more for mystery amp

presentation 2:  41-59% -- 45% more for mystery amp

presentation 3:  37-63% --70% more for mystery amp

My vote (and let's all assume...! Krens vote):  BUTT-KICKING.

Put another way:  If you were going to Vegas and playing a game where the long term stats in a game, which side would you bet on and would you play that game a lot?   Would you play any other game!???  Would you bet on the Rouge???:  BUTT-KICKING.

Anyone else want to weigh in?  Viber thinks Kren and I are outliers on this matter?  How do all of you feel?

Are any of you looking to trade in your high dollar amps for Rouge? 

my prediction...:  BUTT-KICKING

Viber, As we have privately discussed.  Your preferences are your own:  not right or wrong.  But your preferences are in the strong minority, at least for people on this thread.  I suspect people that read this thread are less interested in good sounding budget products like the Rouge and--likely--the AHB2.  I think more of us are interested in fantastic SOTA prducts, regardless of whether or not we will be able to ever afford them.  There are dozens of places to read about good sounding budget equipment.  Very few places to read about high end pieces where the reviewers are not beholden to ad revenue or retailer biases (i.e. I like what I sell...).

One David vs. Goliath challenge was fun.  David got crushed.  None of his stone found it's mark.  I want to see Goliath vs. Goliath!  I suspect I am not in the minority of this threads readers.

Let's add a wager to the results:  If the readers of this thread deem the Rouge shootout as a Butt-Kicking then Viber has to restrict his posts to 1 per week for the next 6 months.  If the readers don't agree to Butt-Kicking then Kren and I have to restrict our posts to no more than 1 per week for the next 6 months.

Deal?

Starting score:  Rouge didn't get it's Butt Kicked:  1  BUTT-KICKING:  2

@divertit,

It wasn't 60/40...  it was 60/40, 3 times in a row over YT in a double blind test.  And where the better the rest of the system became (i.e. with the Soulution preamp), the more lopsided the result 63/37.  So clear were the differences that even Viber openly recognized and named which was which in all 3 cases but that he "preferred" his amp.  Differences were readily apparent over YT, which ought to mask or obscure them.  Indeed, as Kren reminded us in Jay's assessment. In person, mystery Amp was better in every way.  It ought to be... it cost 20-30x as much.  But this shootout was never about value... that is... the competition was between a cost no object and cheap components with the claim being that cheap killed the giant.  It did not.  Definitively, repeatedly and backed up Jay's buying decision to send it back and... not buy it.  Redundantly...  BUTT-KICKING

@thezaks,

I agree with all of your points.  In fact, I thought that the results would be close to random.  They were far from random.  Of course preferences are individual dependent and there are a wide variety of perspectives.  I suspect that many of the 40% chose the less expensive amp less because of inherent quality but because with the limitations of YT, computer speakers, etc. the apparent brightness probably sounded clearer and more immediate which upon much closer listening through highly resolving headphones or on a highly resolving stereo revealed the distortions and limitations of all but the best Class D amp(s).  My guess is that were they hearing in person, it would be a difference > than 90/10.  Again, Kren's description of Jay's experience wasn't that in some areas 1 bested the other and vice versa and therefore one had to choose which limitations a buyer would accept.  It was that the Rouge was bested in all areas, even if the Rouge sounded better than one might expect.  It was not a giant killer.  It was killed by the giant. 

But isn't that what most of us really want?  If a $10K system, could perform at the level of a $1,000,000 system, there wouldn't be any reason for high end to exist.  Jay is correct, the better you get, the more you have to pay for that incremental improvement, and even then there is always something better... Isn't that what makes this fun and allows for a thread to be on it's 371'st page and more than 5 years running?

Viber6,

I don’t know if statistical analysis was part of your medical training or not.  It was part of my Economics training and you are incorrect in your conclusion about how I evaluated the statistics.  Absolute difference is meaningless, only relative difference matters.  A difference of 10 out of 20 is huge.  A difference of 10 out of 1M is not statistically relevant, unless with repeated trials the difference was always between 9 and 11.  Vegas thrives on 5-15% because there are billions of samples and the variance is exceptionally small.  So my analysis being based on relative analysis is spot on.

As it relates to your Rouge, even though the trials numbered only 3 and sample size was probably small, the results were relatively stable so it was not inappropriate to focusing on 50% more preferred the Mystery amp…. 

Highlighting your lack of understanding of statistics, using your numbers…Assuming the rare disease toxin was deadly and the rate increased from .1 to .2% equates to a change from 335,000-770,000 deaths in a year in the USA which would equate to an increase in total deaths of 12% and an overall cause of death of 24% (2.85M died in prepandemic 2019 USA).  This would rank above cancer and cardiac arrest, so yes, that would be a big deal…  It would be an even bigger deal if it was centered on Brooklyn… where 20% in a year would be dead… Pretty bad for your long term business!  Interesting note… Covid-19 deaths were around 385,000 last year and this year will be over 425,000.  0-.1% matters.

Although I do agree that most people do not understand statistics, especially as it relates to risk analysis and decision making.  I will also agree that media plays on (or equally suffers from) this lack of understanding resulting in sensationalism.  If you want to further debate statistical analysis, off line please…. 

And finally for your pilot analogy.  Let’s add some additional details:  The 2 pilots are self taught, hijacked the plane and really don’t have any idea what they are talking about but are absolutely convinced they know what they are talking about… there names are psnyder149 and Viber6.  Yes, we are taking this airship down faster than the Hindenburg…

And to everyone’s gratefulness, I am done posting on what I thought would give readers a good chuckle…

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and to an even better 2022 everyone!

@viber6,

I would like to invite you to come to Chicago, IL, specifically to the suburb of Morton Grove, to visit a retailer named Quintessence Audio.  For the record, I have no special relationship with them other than having been a relatively insignificant but loyal customer for approximately 30 years.  

When you come, you can have the opportunity to hear the ARC ref 10 fed by DCS digital into 3 different Wilson speakers, or Sonus Fabre Aida $125k speakers, Focal, Dynaudio speakers or Pass Labs or any of SimAudio equipment or a host of other choices.   While you are there, you might also listen to the Kubala Sosna cable loom or Cardas  cables.   You will then be able to experience first hand how inaccurate and “Euphonic” the ARC is compared to other top end solid state equipment.  When I heard this system, I “only” got to hear DCS, ARC 10, SF Aida combination through an all Valhalla 2 loom.  It was a $400k system and was absolutely stunning.

Normally, that system would have had an Odin 2 loom, but the entire $75k loom was out on loan to a customer.  You know, it’s quite amazing that Quintessence sells any Odin cables in spite of having all those others to choose from in the store, or to take home and audition.  I know that many reputable dealers offer home auditions so people can try within their own system in their own familiar environment.  It is just normal. Your Nordost dealer slam was just plain ignorant.

I have never asked how much inventory Quintessence has on the floor at any given time, but I’m going to make an educated guess at over $3 million.  I don’t know how many retail outlets in this niche market can support this kind of inventory and stay in business for over 30 years but I would be shocked if it were many more than a few in the country.  The answer to your question about dealers is that overhead is huge, margins are thin, sales are tough in an environment where everyone wants a deal and the market is relatively small.  Dealers have to make the best decisions they can while tightly managing cash flow in an economy that can turn south on a dime.  The answer is not that they are afraid their products are inferior.

Since you consider yourself such a well educated and knowledgeable audiophile with your endless and generally misinformed posts I firmly believe that you will resist further contributions of your mindless drivel until you can come to Chicago and hear for yourself just how misguided much of what you write is.  I’m sure you have both the intellectual curiosity and honesty to admit that when you hear first hand how great some of the items you slam are you will come around full circle.  Just FYI, I do not own any ARC nor Odin cables, they are way beyond my means, but I do appreciate that they are wonderful products as are many others.

Before you fire off your retort and justification, please go back and reread what you have written since your self imposed but too-short lived Christmas exile.  Ask yourself, how much are your words really contributing to the collective knowledge?  

I will point out something you are not likely aware of...  This thread has been thriving for around 30 months, most of the time without you.  It appears you first started following it on or around April 23... 9 months ago.  In only 1/3 of the lifetime of the thread, you are approaching 500 posts (nearly all on this thread) out of 5900 total posts—nearly 10%.  WC, the one person we are all really interested in, has only posted 1500 times.  Other people are too polite to you, but many share the feelings I am expressing. I am going to go out on a limb and predict others will support what I am writing.

Start your own discussion thread, maybe even join forces with techno_dude, and when you’ve been going strong for more than 2 years with a significant following, come back and tell me how wrong I was.  Don’t bother till then!

Thanks in advance.

1. interconnect between dCS external clock and DAC (this is only clock signal, no data).  stock, Heimdahl 2, Valhalla 2
2. USB between notebook and DAC (all data, but data completely reclocked within DAC.  stock, Heimdahl 2, Valhalla 2
3. Power cord of dCS external clock.  stock, Red Dawn (Nordost's top of their "entry level Leif series" power cord.  around $400 for 2M)

I would like to add that Viber's knowledge of Classical music is excellent and though I never commented publicly, I thought his recommendations on "introductory level" music were superb.  I am also a fan of classical music--decades ago, I studied cello at a high level--and I have some different "introductory level" favorites but nothing better than his. I have a current favorite Saint Saens Symphony #3 (Organ) to recommend as a solid performance but an amazing recording:  Reference Recording:  Michael Stern, Kansas City Symphony.  Viber is a fantastic resource if you want to learn about classical music, conductors, musicians, etc.  No reservations!

Clearly I feel his views and sound preferences on equipment are not in line with the majority and they would result in a dramatically inferior sounding system were the "average" listener to build a system with his recommendations:  zip cord-not high quality speaker cable, 1970's potentiometer based graphic equalizer-to artificially hype high frequencies and diminish low and mid-range, bright equipment instead of more neutral, class-D amplification in a world where very few class-D amplifiers match the capabilities of A and A/B, speaker panels with limited dynamics and little bass-even when Viber loves symphonic and concerto formats that really can't be performed at anything close to realistic levels on this style of speaker.  These are all strong recommendations from Viber and to follow them would be a mistake for many... or more likely most.

I can confidently state that his views are not in line with the majority simply because he applies varying degrees of the same EQ to nearly everything.  He even discounts digital EQ over his beloved Rane.  If he was anywhere near middle ground he would have to goose highs on some and reduce them on some.  Reduce lower midrange and bass on some and goose it on others.  He does not.  And many (perhaps even most) would not require any EQ.  He roundly criticizes great equipment as "Euphonic" and "overly warm", etc.  

According to Viber, nearly all Recording Engineers and Equipment Designers do so in a way which misses the essence of the instruments and sound.  I too have been musically trained, been involved in recording music (3 of the records I have been involved in hit Billboards Top 10 in Blues, even dislodging BB King and Eric Clapton (temporarily! from the top spots).  Of the dozens of recording engineers I have worked with, they ALL faithfully do their best to capture the sound that the musicians are creating.  ALL!  Unless the engineer was working in collaboration with the artists for a specific special effect, any engineer intentionally deviating from this would be removed.  Probably immediately.  Studio time is too expensive to mess around. 

As stated, he and I have had numerous private, off-line respectful conversations and I have applied his EQ suggestions to my system.  They turn my imminently musical system into screechy crap to my ears and again, I would suggest most listeners would feel similarly.  Decreasing 200-500 Hz range by up to 5dB and goosing 8000+ Hz by up to 12 dB.  Even then, I do not criticize his choices for him.  Only his insistence that his choices are best for everyone else.  If you are curious, I have my current system posted on "virtual systems".  

Additionally, his lack of respect of other musical tastes is narrow minded.  I absolutely use live, unamplified, acoustic instruments and recordings in my equipment evaluations.  I also use classic rock, modern rock, studio jazz and most other available genres (except rap and speed metal, which I more or less categorically avoid! lol).  Different characteristics can be learned from any of them.  Probably most important in picking recordings for evaluation is that you are familiar with the them and that you like them.  I have been using some of the same recordings for decades:  Rush-Power Windos, McCoy Tyner-NY Reunion, Sting-Brand New Day, Beethovan Egmont Overture, Brahms Symphony 4-Fritz Reiner (Chesky), Tears for Fears-Sowing the Seeds of Love.  Nothing special about this list other than I love them and have listened to each of these literally hundreds of times.  Not one recording will tell me everything I want to know about a piece of equipment, but all together and I will pretty much understand what it adds...and lacks.  If I am auditioning a piece of equipment, they will all get hit at some point in the process.

But as many people are looking to this thread for recommendations and evaluations, many of us fundamentally understand Viber's biases and preferences, but for those who are just starting out, it is important to call foul when recommendations are not in line with most others.  This is why I make such a pest of myself.  I know others agree, but just ignore him but for some deep psychological and pathological reason... I guess I can't...

And finally to Viber.  I did purposely distort your pilot analogy in an attempt at mutually, self-deprecating humor.  You constructed a straw man argument, I lit it on fire!  

Again, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone and especially to Viber!

Thread statistics...

Inaugural post 10/16/16 
Approximately 1700 total posts on 4/22/18 
OP responsible for around 1/3 of all posts at that time

7220 total posts as of this morning 
One person responsible—who had never posted on the thread prior to 4/23/18–for nearly 720 posts... not the OP 
OP responsible for approximately 1/6 of posts since 4/22/18

In only 13 months of a thread that is 31 months old, one person, despite repeated requests for restraint, has now made: 10% of all posts, nearly 1/7 of posts in last 13 months and 1/4 (55 out of last 225 posts) over most recent 2-1/2 weeks.

1st row, 2nd balcony, Orchestra Hall Chicago or Heinz Hall Pittsburgh.   Best sound in the house!  And actually, Jay and I have spent several hours listening together, our tastes are about as closely matched as any 2 people.  I just don't have Jay's budget.

And kren, I spent 2 years in a row/200-250 nights/year in damn near every Blues club in North America (ex Mexico) and quite a few in Europe!  But hard to beat:  7th row Wrigley Field for Paul McCartney, 13th row for Elton John's final concert in Chicago, 10 ft away from Jewel at a Private party...  or backstage watching Sheryl Crow!  best.... ahem.... sound ever!