My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something but, what difference does it make if he is a reseller?  The real question to me would be are the equipment reviews helpful.  To me they are not only helpful, but entertaining.  I actually think this is very nice.

Magazines don't do this.  Not only are most products they review the "best ever" but, they only typically compare with one or two products.  This is actually a progression in performance as seen from the OPs perspective.

A is better than B in certain ways, and C is better than B in certain ways.  On and on.  this is quite informative. 

I've been in this for quite some time and yes, I only really rely on my experience and hearing when making purchase decisions.  But, it can't hurt to read others experiences and thoughts.

And I also am a cyclist with many bikes.  Not an inexpensive hobby either. On the bike or sitting listening to music with a glass of wine a good book and maybe a  partner?  Hmmm??? 

I'm enjoying this.

Waiting for my REF 6 to arrive also.  With Audio Research's trade up program, they give (gave?) 75% of MSRP on older equipment towards new equipment.  75% is better than used price.

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my apologies for misunderstand.

Regarding the REF 6, this is the only purchase I have ever made where I hadn't heard it before purchase.  I've heard the REF 5 vs the REF 3 and the REF 5 was "slightly and I mean slightly" better than the REF 3 which didn't warrant me buying the REF 5.  However, the REF 5SE vs the REF 3 was a different story entirely.  My friends heard the comparison and loved the REF 3 and couldn't understand how the REF 5 SE was that much better.  Now we are at the REF 6.  Well, I've heard the REF 10 and if I had the funds I would have bought the REF 10 outright.  Wow! what a pre-amp.

Everyone I know that has heard the REF 6 told me that it really is that much better than the REF 5SE as the REF 5SE was over the REF 3. 

It must be a trickled down REF 10. 

I'm really looking forward to getting it. 

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Keep the REF 6 and get the Rowland 925s.  I bet they would sound wonderful with the REF 6.  Of course you could also try the REF 250SE, which to me so far, are the best amps I have heard.

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I always new Pass Labs designed and constructed some great equipment.  As does Audio Research and many others. In my opinion, regardless of whether it is solid state or tube design, if it is designed and constructed well and sound wonderful to the buyer, then that is all that matters.

I would love to hear the Pass equipment.

I'm going to the Audio Fest in Colorado soon.  Maybe I'll hear some Pass equipment there.

Interested in your cable evaluations

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 I haven't contributed in some time, but I have been trying to follow. 

I have heard some seriously good systems and components.  I can tell you that the REF 10 pre-amp is one of the absolutely best, period.  In my humble opinion, it would be a serious mistake to get rid of it.  There are some out there that would compare, but not jaw dropping.  The REF 10 is just outstanding.

I  haven't seen lately whether you have taken the dive into phono yet. Once you nail down your basic system (laugher), it would be outstanding if you could then go the phono route.

Not long ago, I ventured to Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica and listened to Randall's house system.   Vandersteen 7 speakers, with Audio Research REF 10 Phono stage, REF 10 pre-amp, REF 250 SE amps and stupidly expensive Basis turntable, arm and cartridge, with top audioquest cabling.  I have listened for decades to wonderful systems and this was the very first time that the system completely disappeared.  I've never experienced that before. I know you said that you tried another Audio Research tube amp, but if you haven't tried the REF250 SE, you've missed out.  in my opinion.  The other amp isn't in the same league as the REF250SE, and the combination of the REF 10 pre-amp with the REF 250SEis simply stunning.

Also, I tried to go back and discover what speakers you are using.  I saw mention of Martin Logan 15a.  Is this correct?

continue having fun.  Your efforts are not only fun for some of us, but very informative.  Direct A/B comparisons in the same system is absolutely the way to accurately compare and chose equipment.  But, although Randall would probably let me take equipment home to listen, I haven't asked yet, only Stereo Design in San Diego actually routinely let me shlep heavy, expensive equipment back and forth from San Diego to LA to listen. Unfortunately, after over 40 years, Steve called it quits and Stereo Design B&M store is closed. 

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You have to admit, this is not only very interesting, but fun.

I'm still a little behind.  What speakers are you using now?

enjoy,

I'm not surprised at your wife's finding.  However, I know probable isn't in your price range, but, if you haven't heard the REF 10 with REF 250 SE amps, you really haven't heard the system that Audio Research intended to be paired together.  I've heard many high end systems and they all were wonderful.  However, the first time in almost 4 decades in this hobby I have heard a system completely disappear was when I hear the REF 10, REF 250 SE combo with Vandersteen 7 speakers.  Oh my.

I have heard the REF 10, REF 250 SE at another store (Stereo Design) with Wilson top of the line speakers and for the first time, I loved the Wilson speakers.  Wow. Switch out the REF 250 SE and use the top of the line Boulder amp and although the Boulder was great, we all still preferred the REF 250 SE.

It's too bad you can't borrow a pair instead of the constant purchases.  I understand the purchase/resale issues for you.  However, a used pair of REF 250 SE would enable you to recover your cost if you decided to sell them.  Which I don't believe you will.

You really like the REF 10?  I'm telling you the REF 10/REF 250 SE is really magic.

But, continue rolling on.  I'm really enjoying this journey your are taking for many of us.

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With all due respect, it is not absolutely true that newer is "better" than older.  Sometimes the construction standards in the past was a "lost art" and was more detailed and better than today's standards.

For audio equipment, especially solid state, it is true that the newer devices are more linear and have better power bandwidth than older devices.  This is why I upgrade older transistors to newer/modern transistors when I either repair or upgrade units.  They has the same basic specs, (hfe, power, voltage, etc.) but they are more linear and better devices. 

However, in audio, the only real way you can tell if a newer piece is "better" than the older stuff is to do a direct A/B comparison in the same system at the same time.  Changing absolutely nothing but the device.  Some older equipment is not equipped with balanced connections and therefore, you may have to add some special cabling or transformers to compensate for this test.  But, that should be the only things changed.

Then, as I tell others when comparing equipment in your home.  play a favorite song first.  use a DB gauge and find out the listening level from the gauge.  Then put a white noise test cd or album on and use the DB gauge to see what that listening level was.  Then switch out the one device for the other, put the white noise cd/album back on and adjust the volume to match what you were hearing with the other device.  Then, listen critically.

Many times, people perceive "better" when it is really just a volume/gain difference that emphasizes treble or base, etc.  But when you match gains/volume, that artificial perceived difference goes away and you get to really hear the two devices fairly.

anyway, just my take.

Also, another issue I have seen is people discuss fuses, cables, power cords, and other side equipment.  while I have no problem with this discussion,  Let me just say that anything that the electrical signal has to go through will definitely impact that signal.  However, if the designer did their job correctly, then they are basing their design on the design of their electronics and the sound of their device, using the electronics that they installed and tested when voicing their device.  That includes, power cords, fuses, etc.  If, when you demo'd the equipment in the store, a friends home or your home and you were happy with that sound, then that is what the designer intended.  That is the sound they designed for.  Yes, you can make things "better" by way of better internal cabling, better power cords, better fuses, etc.  But, it sounded wonderful when you bought it.  this is why I don't play much with fuses, power cords, etc.

interconnect cables and speaker cables can make a dramatic difference.  but, you can get seriously carried away with that also.  I agree with WC.  I am absolutely not going to spend a ridiculous amount on cables.  but, my definition of "ridiculous" isn't the same as some others.  Can I get it better?  absolutely.  But, at what point does one sit back, with a good glass of wine and just enjoy the music?  Don't get me wrong.  If their is something missing or a situation that drives me out of the room after awhile, then I need to address that.  I will say that my room has had more impact than I previously thought. But, that is another discussion.

I'm enjoying this post and the intelligent discussions. 

Keep it up.

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Techno_dude.  I apologize if my post may have offended you.  I in no way intended to do that.  I was just commenting on my experience and knowledge about newer vs older equipment.  Which, in my experience, newer is not always better than older.  That is all.

no disrespect intended.

The thread is about WC's journey reviewing equipment that he wants to review.

I for one, have no problem what-so-every with WC grabbing some older equipment and throwing them into the mix as well.  It adds to the fun. so to speak.  He's the one that has to do the heavy lifting.

Also, maybe I missed something.  Why is the Krell 700cx an audiophile abomination?  what did I miss?

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joecasey;  it's not that I prefer old to new.  What I said was that newer is not always better than older. 

There is equipment out there that I would take in a minute.  No hesitation.  Compared today's equipment, some are hard to beat, and to this day sound wonderful.

for example, a decent Mark Levinson 23.5 amp.  that amp is just nice. Recapped and operating within spec?  it is one of Mark Levinson (the man) best amp designs.  I believe this is the last one he had a hand in designing before he sold the company.

And yes, my Audio Research REF 250 amps are quite nice, but, it isn't a jaw dropping difference.

WhiteCameross; What  would love to see is a comparison between the Rowland 925 and a Rowland 8T monster amp. 

Also,, Joecasey;  The Rowlan 8T is another I would grab in an instant.

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I heard the Neoliths at the RMAF last year (going again this year also), and they were in a regular size room. not large at all and sounded absolutely wonderful.  I'm not sure that WC's room will hurt this much.  I am very interested to read his impression of the Neoliths.  I will say again that the REF 10 he is using isn't seeing it's potential.  They sounded the best (to me) paired with Audio Research REF 250 SE amps.  The only system I've heard that completely disappeared.  Of coarse, the top of the line Basis turntable, REF 10 phono stage, and Vandersteen 7 speakers didn't hurt also.

I'm leaning towards the opinion that the Neoliths may be too big for his room, but that is based on size, not sound. Those are some big speakers.

WC, do you know anyone you can borrow some REF 250 SE amps from for a few days?   I think you would be impressed.

Anyway, looking forward to the next report.

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I agree.  The reproduced music should be an accurate representation of the recorded music.  Bass slam or whatever one calls it is fun, but may not be accurate. 

the real question (to me) should be, does the system reproduce the recorded music accurately? 

In the recording studios or even live, is the bass  emphasized as much as you hear it sometimes in audio systems?  I don't think so. 

First thing I do is play music at a level that I can listen to comfortably.  Then I insert a test CD and play pink noise and use an app like audiotools (free) and look at the frequency response  at ear level in my room.  Then you can see the peaks and dips that should not be there.  Correct that, then listen again.  If the bass response is wayyyyy too high, you then know that the system or a component in the system is reproducing bass response out of proportion and it is not accurate.

Anyway, just my take. 

Still enjoying the ride.  But, as I said, the question should be, is the sound accurate first?

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Techno_dude; no disrespect, but I doubt very much that what you claim about Ayre vs Audio Research is true.

Anyway, If WC has an Audio Research REF 10 pre-amp, then mating it with the REF 250 SE amps will change some minds.

I believe that there will demonstration equipment by Ayre, Audio Research, Atmosphere (I hope) and many others at this year's RMAF.  I'm looking forward to hearing some fine music played through some fine equipment there.

You know, what these shows should insist on is that each demonstration room play the same music.  Wouldn't that be interesting? 

WC, you don't know anyone that can loan you a pair of Audio Research REF 250 SE amps for a few weeks?

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Just my opinion here as I've been following this post for quite some time, but, I don't think in this instance that techno_dude was being insulting or a troll.  A might insensitive maybe, but not insulting or a troll.  He/she (can't tell), offered an opinion about certain products that he/she does not care for.  I didn't see a real negative in this case.

Also, with regards to products under performing, that I take a certain exception to.  If said product sounded good enough for a person to purchase, then it most definitely didn't under perform. Otherwise, why buy it in the first place?  The buyer must have liked it.

My opinion is that I purchased an item based on either my in-home demonstration (typical) or in the store and I typically don't alter the unit unless I really feel a need to.  I don't tube roll, mostly because of costs and time.  I'm happy with how my system sounds with what I have.

notwithstanding that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with tube rolling, changing fuses (if you feel it's necessary), power cables, etc.  People are trying to get to that certain place in they system and if that is what it takes, more power to them.  But, sometimes we should back up and realize that the piece you purchased wasn't crap when you purchased it and how it came from the manufacturer.  It was pretty good out of the box.  One may make it "better" in your view by changing certain things, but it most certainly didn't "under perform".

But, WC, how is the new equipment vs your existing equipment?

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First an Audio Engineer is an Electrical/Electronics Engineer.  Specializing in particular fields such as Amplifier Design/Filter design, acoustic environmental design, etc.   I strongly disagree with the statement made previously disparaging such Engineers.  1) because it is flat out not true, regardless of what someone's Father told him, 2) it is insulting and just wrong.  I'm a pretty good Electrical/Electronics Engineer.  Analog/Digital Design, and also amplifier and filter design.  I'm pretty good with sonar detection circuitry, guidance system analysis, and I also am pretty good at amplifier and filter design.  I received my advanced degrees and certifications and can't begin to express the ignorance of such a statement. 

There are elitist in every category that believe (falsely) that they are superior to others. 

Also, McIntosh retains it used price value because 1) they are pretty good products, 2) customer appreciate them, 3) they sound pretty good, 4) great design/construction quality (except for the MS300 music server, which is another story altogether), McIntosh is still around and services pretty much all (except for the music server, sigh) its products.  Longevity in this business really says something. 

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Yes, well, I worked in Aerospace for some time as an Engineer, and I can tell you that Aerospace, is probably one of the most overpriced , exaggerated costs fields (with regards to their final products) out there. 

There is so much fat attached to the end products that you wonder how a hammer costs $600 or billions for an aeroplane.

Yes, the planes are very high tech, but damn!!!!!  Many country's economy is based around the military industrial industry, and will do whatever it can to keep it going, with few if any checks and balances.

At least, in my opinion, customers and the market can make the determination if audio products are worth their time and money. 

I will agree that if the market was greater, you would see much more research into sound quality and real measurements.  As an Engineer, I can tell you that pretty much everything associated with sound reproduction can be measured.  Sorry  to disagree with some out there, but, yes it can be measured.  It has to date, just not been cost effective for Engineers to delve into this and invest the time and money to really do it justice.

However, that does not mean that there aren't some really talented Engineers out there in the audio world.  For example, Mark Levinson, Nelson Pass, John Curl, YBA designer (can't spell his name), Vandersteen, Ralph (Atmosphere), and so many, many more from Europe, Japan, Switzerland, Germany, etc. past and present.  These people really do know Engineering and know their stuff.

it is  one thing to take some one else's designs and build an amp.  it is quite another to start from scratch and do it your self with the math, and measurements to back it up.

A classic example is an Electronics design class where the instructor gives a project to the class.  Design and build a Class A or Class A/B amplifier (including power supply), using all discrete components that have the following specifications below.  build the device in the lab and demonstrate to the instructor that the device operates within specifications.  Show an equations associated with the design, and provide an economic cost breakdown.

Some specifications would include:

1.  Power output:  100 wpc

2.  Minimum Load handling capability: 1 ohm

3.  power bandwith:  DC to light

4.  Power/Frequency stable over the entire bandwidth at rated power output.

5.  Input impedance:  specified number

6.  Output impedance:  specified number

7.  Provide transfer curve equation for the device and be prepared to show simulation on computer model with transfer curve.

8.  Power supply input voltage:  110-120 vac (60 hz) or 220-240 vac (50 hz.

There's lots more, but you get the idea.  And if you think this is easy, remember, they must show all of the math, for the amp and the power supply.

Don't know how we got on this subject but, oh yeah, now I remember....

Anyway, it just ain't true.

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WC, what do you mean dealers are afraid to sell items to you?  how would they even know who you are?  Walk in, talk, negotiated a good price, arrange delivery and evaluate.  Maybe it's time for some "get smart" disguises.

I read earlier dracule 1 didn't care for the REF 6 pre-amp.  However, I would be interested to know what equipment he evaluated it with.  This is the first time I have heard someone state they didn't like the REF 6.  I find it pretty amazing.  However, other's may not.  hmmm.

I just know that when WC "feels" he found a better pre-amp than the REF 10 and gets rid of it, I'll try to be first in line for it.  Then, WC will figure out he made a mistake and want it back.  Ha.

One thing I have read hear and other places are subjective reviewing terms like "bass thump" or the bass hit me in the chest, etc.  I just want to be clear, that they may be fun and nice to hear, but it is probably not accurate reproduction.  If that thump or bass response wasn't intended in the original recording, then the equipment (speaker, amp, etc.) manufacturer placed circuitry in the device to give this impression.  However, it may not be and probably isn't accurate.

This is another example of the audio industry (some) doing things for effect and not accuracy. 

I've fallen for that effect in the past also, then asked myself and others whether that effect was actually intended by the recording engineer as opposed to being an artificial device placed there by the equipment manufacturer.  I've definitely experienced this effect with certain speakers.  Wayyyyy too much bass effect.  may sound good initially, but it gets old and after spending thousands, one realizes it is not accurate.

anyway, my take.

interested in WC's next review.  Where are the Neoliths?

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You have to admit, what WC has started is some very good and much needed conversations/discussions about equipment, rooms, perception, etc.

I am actually enjoying this and really admire WC (and his wife for allowing him to do this).  The ultimate resulting side discussions are not only needed but mandatory.

I was in San Diego recently and went to a "high end" dealer.  Stereo Unlimited I believe.  Since Stereo Design closed their doors a while ago, my fun has been limited.

However, Stereo Unlimited has pretty good salespeople and consultants with a good inventory of equipment.  They sell used and new albums also.

I grabbed a 4 disc copy of Dire Straits Brother in Arms album and played in on one system with  golden ear speakers, Rogers (I believe integrated) and I forgot the turntable.  Brother in Arms is a song that really demonstrates much about systems.

That song was great, however, the bass kind of threw me off.  It was thumping and good, but hmmm.

I then took the album in the other room to hear it on the system with Vandersteen 7s, VTL amps and pre-amp and again (forgot the turntable). I asked the owner to remove the existing speakers and put the Vandersteen 7s in the system.  They were in the same room.  He (with help) managed to do that for me without complaint.  Well, I found a new favorite store, other than Randall's in Santa Monica.

Wow!!!! the Vandersteen and VTL setup really sang.  love those speakers.  What I really noticed was that the golden ear speakers exaggerated the bass.  Most people that don't compare with A/B comparisons at the same time wouldn't really notice until much later (after purchase).  But, to me, the Golden ear speakers in that system exaggerated the bass. 

Granted the Vandersteens and VTL setup was much, much more expensive, but one could tell that the bass wasn't right.

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Jetter; I don't know about that, but I am still waiting for WC to get his hands on some Neoliths.  I feel that as long as the "side" discussions are taken from subjects brought forth in the OP's posts or even introduced and continued by some, I don't see a problem.  Also, WC is busy making deals trying to get his hands on the next.  So, while there is a lull so to speak, I think this is good.

By-the-way, can someone please  tell me if the Rowland amp is Class D?

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I really have no problem with a manufacturer that designs their equipment to work best with their own equipment.  If Spectral sounds best with Spectral, then so be it. 

What I still think is that WC should try the amp that mates best with the REF 10 and that is the REF250 SE.

Again, although the system I heard had stupidly expensive Basis Turntable/arm/cartridge setup and also Vandersteen 7s.  It was the only system I've heard that completely disappeared. 

I've also heard the REF 10/REF 250SE with top of the line (yes, I know) Wilson speakers and digital front end and it was again, wonderful.

If I was a high end manufacturer, I would design equipment to work best with my own equipment first.  Maybe I would have other equipment that was designed to work with someone else's equipment also, but, my primary would be around my own.

just my two cents.

By-the-way, I have on two occasions heard the DAG's and I can tell you they were amazing.  I would take them in a second.

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I'm hoping that at the RMAF this weekend, Luxman and Mark Levinson (among others) will be played.

I'm looking forward to this weekend in Colorado.

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Lets also remember that Whitecamaross' decisions to purchase equipment is based on his real world expectation to resell them at a later date.  This seriously limits the uber high costs equipment from his list.  Unless, he can "borrow" something. 

The Dag amps are in no way close to any Krell product that I have heard. 

They are simply outstanding. But WC's ability to resell them may seriously limit his purchase decision.  Although, I think he would find a very short list of amps that can compete with them.

At RMAF I heard many great systems.  The rooms absolutely sucked, but, the music in most rooms was great.

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Viber6:  I haven't heard the Krell and DAG amps side by side.  That, really is the only true way (matching levels of course) to make a determination realistically.  However, I can say that the newer Krells are more open and not nearly as bright as the older Krells I've heard.  That was always my complaint about Krells in the past.  However, the D'Agostino amps, to me, are very open, clean, detailed and not at all sounding "solid state".  What ever that means.

They are some of the best amps I have heard.  along with Audio Research REF 250SE, REF 750, VTL, Jeff Rowland, and some others.

As I wrote in another post here, the D'Agostino/Martin Logan Neolith combination at the 2018 RMAF was one of the very best sounding rooms there.  There were a few rooms that were just outstanding.

I have to take WhiteCamaross' evaluations with a grain of salt also, because as he mentioned, he is limited by the ability or perceived ability to resale certain equipment.  Therefore, he is reluctant to purchase certain equipment for that reason.  So, no D'Agostino amps, no Audio Research REF250SE (yet). and no, the Audio Research amp he did listen to, wasn't close to the REF250SE amp. With a REF 10 pre-amp and the REF250SE, that was one of the very best sounding systems I have every heard.

The good thing is that some people are letting him "borrow" their equipment for evaluation purposes.  That is nice.

Anyway, sorry for digressing.  It is difficult to find stores that carry Krell.  I don't know why. So, it is difficult to hear them much less take them home for an in-home demo.  But, the newer Krells I have heard are quite nice, but the D'Agostino is in another world.  In my opinion.

I would grab them in an instant if the money was right.

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bill_k;  do you recall which Boulder amp WC used? and also the speakers.

I know (in my opinion) that Boulder (although quite nice) are very overpriced, so it is a wonder that WC managed to off-load the Boulder amp and recover his costs.

If you can't remember, no worries, I will go back and re-read the several thousand posts.

Laugh.

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The interesting thing is that now WC is using the Magico speakers.  I wonder how the amps he used in the past would sound with the REF 10, Magico setup?

I bet most of those previous amps would absolutely sing.

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Martin Logan Neolith.

I heard both the Magico M3 and the Neolith.  I like them both.  But, I really liked the Neoliths.  Although I heard them with the Dan D'Agostino amps and pre-amp at the 2018 RMAF.  I also heard them with Audio Research REF 750 amps and REF 10 at the 2017 RMAF.  Absolutely wonderful.  Sound.

I don't remember what the Magico M3s were paired with, but they sounded great also.

My vote is Neolith. 

I know you are using the REF 10 pre-amp, but what amp are you currently using?

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I can tell you without a doubt that WC will not be disappointed with the Martin Logan Neolith speakers.

I don't know where this is coming from that eventually one will be disappointed with electrostatics.  Where is that coming from?

I have had electrostatics for quite some time.  Sequel IIs and Monolith IIIs.  Also, I have several friends that have electrostatics and they are quite happy.  I use my Monolith IIIs with the Krell KBX balanced electronic crossover designed for the Monolith IIIs, with a Audio Research REF 6 pre-amp, REF 2SE phono stage, REF 250 amps (for the uppeer panels), Mark Levinson 23.5 amp for the woofers, Audio Research DAC 8, Sota Star vacuum turntable, SME IV arm and I am quite happy.  Oh Yeah!!!!

My imaging is wonderful.  The soundstage wide and accurate, dimensionality, spot on.

I spoke with the Martin Logan representatives at the RMAF and they said the Neolith was based on the Monolith III Speakers. I also spoke with Gale Sanders while he was demonstrating his new speakers at the RMAF and he grinned, took me aside and said quietly that the Monolith III speakers are still the best today.  Especially with the KBX crossover and peerless woofers.

So, WC can go with the Magico speakers and will also not be disappointed.  I realy like those speakers. But, don't let the words of people that don't own electrostatics, or are biased against them turn you away from them.

The bass response I am getting is spot on and accurate as measured by monitoring equipment.  I actually added a subwoofer to see if it was needed and guess what?  it wasn't.  It didn't  add anything.  So I removed it.

As usual, the room, room treatment, appurtenant equipment, etc. play a great role in the speakers.  as well as speaker setup.  Which many people flat out get wrong.

I'll take the Neoliths in an instant.  The 15a's too me weren't better than the Monolith IIIs with the KBX crossover to justify changing. But the Neoliths and If I had the room, the statement II's (I'd take in an instant also).

In my opinion, speakers are (to me) the hardest piece to decide on.

I ordered new upper panels for the Monolith IIIs from Martin Logan.  I was thinking that my panels that I replaced in 2006 were maybe light on the highs.  so I ordered new panels.  Turns out they were fine.  Other things affected the highs that I corrected.  But, I'll have new panels next week anyway. 

If you aren't a serial killer, bring your favorite music over and you will see (hear) that the Martin Logan's are accurate and really sing. 

As a former (sigh!) musician.  First chair violinist. Sax, Bassoon, Oboe, etc.  I can tell you that in my opinion accuracy is most important to me.  If it doesn't sound accurate and is altered (too much bass, instruments don't sound real, etc.) I'm leaving.

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Didn't WC already own a pair of ML 15a speakers?

I forgot what electronics he was  using with them.

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I'm very interested in Whitecamaross' impression of the Neolith speakers.  I can tell you that I heard them several times at Dealers and also in shows with Audio Research REF 250 SE/REF 10 and also DAG electronics.  I'm very familiar with Vandersteen, Wilson and Martin Logan equipment and the Neoliths will not disappoint with proper setup and burn in.

Get on the Martin Logan owner's web site and find out the proper set up and toe-in procedure.  They list it there.  Use manufacturer's recommendations and also owner's recommendations (from the web site).

I own the Monolith III speakers with upgraded peerless woofers, Krell KBX balanced crossover (designed for the Monolith III) and I can tell you, with Audio Research REF250's driving the upper panels and a Mark Levinson (upgraded and caps replaced driving the woofers, with a REF 6 pre-amp, I haven't heard anything that prompts me to upgrade speakers. I ordered new panels (but found out afterwards that my panels are fine).

I spoke with Gale Sanders at the 2018 RMAF and he told me that in his opinion (while demonstrating his new speakers) that the Monolith III with Krell KBX is probably one of the best speakers he has designed, even today.  I agree.

The Martin Logan rep at the RMAF told me that the Neolith is based on the Monolith III. I really like the Neolith.  I'm even more glad that they can be obtained in black.

The Vandersteen 7's with Audio Research REF250 SE/REF10 pre/REF 10 phono was the best I've heard.  Absolutely disappeared.

I don' know the power output from the DAG integrated but, I believe it will work fine. 

WC, what issues (possible negative) did you have with the Magico speakers?

In my opinion, speaker selection is probably the hardest decision to make.

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Thanks WC for clearing that up for me.

I heard the Magico's a few times in different venues and each time I really liked them.

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I don't believe there is a problem yet.  Just let the Neolith's break in first before playing with placement.

Those speakers weigh a ton, so playing with placement before break in is a waste of energy.

My Monolith III speakers are 3 feet from the back wall in a 19 foot room and my chair is 9 feet from the speakers.  after a long period of time playing with speaker placement and chair placement, this produced the best sound in my room.  I did have to put bass traps in the corners behind the speakers to help tame the room a little.

What is the power output of the Momentum integrated at 4 ohms?

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I agree with mikepaul.  Also, as I mentioned, a really great resource to tap into is the Martin Logan Owner's club website.  They know their stuff regarding set up and placement and even amp power recommendations.

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WC;  I suspect that since the Neoliths are relatively new, limited number produced so far and "expensive", this could explain why there isn't a Neolith owner's thread yet on the Martin Logan Owner's club website.

I haven't seen much written about the Martin Logan Statement2 speakers either. But, in my opinion, the Statement 2s are up there as the best speakers made.  You need a very large room for those.

Have you contacted the dealer or Martin Logan about the issue you are having with the highs on the Neoliths?

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I just want to say that we may be looking at this the wrong way.  First, for the money WC has paid for equipment, especially speakers, there shouldn't be any reason why the dealer or manufacturer wouldn't come by his house to help in set up and offer suggestions.

Second, it may not be the equipment.  It may be the room.  A good idea would be to download the Audiotools app (free), play white noise from a test CD like stereophiles test CD and see where the faults are with the system and room.

This is why I added bass traps in the corners behind my speakers.  I had a serious bass hump that needed fixing.

Fortunately, my Krell KBX balanced crossover does have adjustments to help.

just saying.

For the money spent and the quality of the equipment, the dealer or manufacturer should step up and assist.

Maybe an integrated amp just doesn't cut it with these speakers. I find that hard to believe with the DAG or gryphon.

As far as high frequency roll offs are concerned.  I'm not buying that one with these speakers.  but, that is very easy to test.  With the audiotools app and test CD you could see clearly the frequency response with pure white noise.

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I've heard them three times with DAG electronics, Audio Research and I forgot the other electronics and I found them to be great.  no high end roll off.  Bass was not exaggerated but nice. Open, airy, sound stage was great.  Hard to drive, but what electrostatics isn't? 

How much are these today?

With the 11s,13s and 15s for high end, people get good choices.  Then add the Neoliths and they compete very well with the top speakers.  Fun would be direct A/B comparisons with the same electronics and music with Neolith, Vandersteen 7's, and other top speakers. 

I've heard the Vandersteen 7's  with Audio Research REF 250 SE amps/REF 10 pre-amp and the system absolutely disappeared.  I've also heard them with the Vandersteen amps and they were just as impressive. 

But, now costs becomes a major factor.  I don't know the upper limits of WC's budget, but he is slowly going up the ladder.  Which makes this even more fun.

One can dream.

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I have read much hear about streaming.  I know in my case, I have many sources.

1. Turntable/Arm/Cartridge:  TriangleArt Maestro/Jelco setup, and also my trusted SOTA Star vacuum TT/SME IV/Sumiko Blackbird, through Audio Research REF 2SE phono stage.

2.  Pioneer Elite BDP09 FD player that I use as a CD transport.  (outstanding)

3. Naim Unitiserve music server

The digital signals go into an Audio Research DAC8. Then everything into an Audio Research REF6.

I can tell you that yes, albums can be a pain at times, with the cleaning and getting up.  But, listening through the music server the sound is wonderful.  Full, rich, open, dimensionality, etc.  Through the BDP09, same disc and the music is better.  I've had several servers and the CD transport beats each and every one.  I know, bits are bits.  I'm an Electrical Engineer and .... no they aren't.

But, when I want serious listening, it is the analog rig.  Wow.  Don't get me wrong, digital has come a long way and my setup is wonderful. But, the same recordings played on analog rig is just there.

But, like with anything high end.  To start in the analog realm takes some trial and error and some doing and quite honestly, I don't blame people for not trying.

Digital and streaming is much easier does sound great.

Younger people are getting seriously into vinyl and that is great.

I have kept up with WhiteCamaros' journey from the start.  It has been fun.

It is not possible in this scenario but, the real X factor I've noticed is that the majority of the time a piece of equipment be it amp or speaker or pre-amp is being demo'd using different equipment. Speakers demo'd now are not played using the same equipment as the earlier speakers were.  Same is true for amps, etc.  So, it is difficult to determine if it is totally the speakers that are causing the difference in sound or a combination of equipment.

in any case, it would be nice if an analog rig was added.  but, this is fun non-the-less.

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WC, you have to be very careful about room treatment.  Your wife so far is understanding in your hobby.  However, some room treatments are seriously butt ugly and she may not go for it.  WAF would seriously come into play here.  Some that the stuff out there is really bad looking

Also, contrary to what some have written, there are better speakers out there than the Neoliths.  I really like the Neoliths so don't get me wrong.  But, its like I tell my track and field athletes.  There is always someone out there that is faster, stronger, can jump higher, further than you. So don't get the big head.  Just be the best you can be and that is all.

Pre-amp/amp compatibility is important.

Amp/speaker compatibility is equally important. This is why demo'ing one change at a time is really important.  Switching out several pieces means you can't tell which piece is making the difference.  I would imagine that many of the amps that WC has tried would sound absolutely wonderful with the REF 10 and Neoliths.

For people that aren't in the amp of the month club, some of us are simply (funny) trying to get "there" with equipment/sound reproduction.

some people just like electronics and playing around. Nothing wrong with that either.

WC is on a different kind of journey.  more power to him. But be careful, a divorce is near if you start playing with room treatment without your wife's buy-in.  I think equipment looks and styling has come a long way. The DAG equipment is just beautiful to me.  And by-the-way, the DAG separates would seriously outperform the DAG integrated.  no question.

But, the room treatment stuff, still has a long way to go as far as looks are concerned.

If you are "there" with the speakers, then fine. but, have you heard Vandersteen 7's? oh boy.  Seriously expensive tho.

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people are living vicariously through WC here.  This is really interesting and most of us wish we could be in the room with him listening to the multiple pieces.  Even bringing over our own to use would be fun.

Actually, that would be great.

however, I have appreciated everyone's input on this forum.  Some opinions are quite forceful, but that does not negate the importance or truthfulness.

before one introduces EQ into a system, there must be a reason for doing so.

As WC has discovered, proper speaker setup and positioning with the Neoliths was very important. Simply introducing EQ at the beginning would not have been prudent.  he had to play with the speakers themselves and positioning in the room before even thinking about EQ.  EQ is the very last thing you want to try.

But, as I said, you have to know your room's and/or equipment's limitations and issues first.

EQ may fix a problem with a particular piece of equipment failings.  However, the minute you take that piece out (as WC often does), then the EQ is now hurting the system/room, not helping.

For example, if you had older Krell amps that were seriously bright to me, and added EQ to tone that down a bit. Removing the Krell amps and replacing them with say, Atmosphere amps would produce an all together different sound and with the EQ would be terrible, if still set to fix the Krell short comings.

If, on the other hand, the EQ was there to "fix" hearing deficiencies of the listener, then, well, you are going to keep it in the system.

It sounds to me that WC has found the optimal positioning of the Neoliths and that the DAG integrated isn't the best in this configuration.  I've heard  the DAG separates with the Neoliths and I can tell you there won't be an issue with those.  Same for the Audio Research REF 250SE amps and many others.

I appreciate Viber6's input.  In my case, my room needs more attention.  I've added bass traps and that helped much. The problem with room correction devices is most times they are hit or miss. Like a phono cartridge, you can't try it at home and return it if it didn't work.

Room correction devices really require professionals to come it and seriously measure the room responses and recommend the proper devices to fix the peaks and valleys. That in and of itself is expensive and takes time.

Room correction is hard.

I'm waiting for a friend of WC to bring a nice turntable/cartridge/arm/phono stage over and blow his mind.

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I missed the turntable scolding portion of the forum.

sorry.

I will check out the Lyngdorf thread.  Thanks grey9hound.

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I'm interested as well to read WC's views on biwiring.  I am an advocate of bi-amping which takes load/strain away from one amp for the lows/highs.  However, the benefit of biwring allude me.

I am interesting in this.

Since the Neoliths have internal crossovers, you can't bypass the internal crossover and use external crossovers.  However, the Neoliths probably have very good internal crossovers.  I believe that Wilson speakers also have internal crossovers.  Actually, I'm not even sure you can bi-amp Wilsons.

But if you take identical amps and bi-amp then the difference would be that one amp powers the lows and one amp powers the highs, thereby removing strain from the amps and a benefit in sound in reached.

Are you going to use different gauge wiring for bi-wiring?  The theory I remember was that high frequency go on the lower gauge wires and low frequency on the higher gauge wire.  I've seen no real evidence of this and personally would just use the same type of wire.  But, what do I know.

I use Audio Research REF 250 mono amps for the upper panel of my Martin Logan Monolith III Speakers and a Mark Levinson 23.5 for the bass woofers through a Krell KBX  balanced electronic crossover.

So, after playing with bi-wiring, WC can try bi-amping.  The amps on the upper panels  must be the same.  But, the woofer amp does not have  to be the same. As long as you can adjust the gain on the amp, or if the power output is the same.  My Krell KBX crossover has adjustable high and low controls. so I'm good.

In response to Viber6's inquiry, I can't really see any reason why bass response on digital  should be lacking, except if the digital recording itself is  bad or if the compression/decompression is done poorly. If the mike's and recording medium can't handle low frequencies, (in otherwords, crappy recording equipment), then the lows won't be there in the first place.  But, this is true for analog recording as well.  With high enough sample rate, the low frequency response should be there if the recording is done correctly and the playback equipment can handle low frequencies.

But, as I suggested to WC, sometimes, it is the room.  it is an eye opener when one uses the stereophile test cd and play white noise through their system and use an app like audiotools and look at the response in your room.  There may be low frequency valleys that explain where the low frequency weakness lie.

anyway, my thoughts.

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Just to be clear, the Neoliths, like many other speakers require a proper amount of time to break in and also required proper set up and placement, as WC has discovered.  He has owned many other Martin Logan speakers in the past, and also many other speakers and he knew this.

simply taking them out of the box and placing them in the room wouldn't work for most speakers.

So, there was/is nothing "wrong" with the Neoliths.  Proper break in, set up and placement was required.  each room is different.

That is not to say that in the future, WC won't try other speakers, amps etc.  That is really the point of this post and his journey.

People are now sitting back waiting for him to off load equipment, so they can grab it.  He has bought and sold some very nice stuff.

I'll be at his front door, first in line when (if) he decides to sell his REF 10 pre-amp.  I have the REF 6 and I am very happy with it.  But, I have heard the REF 10, REF 40 and many others and as far as the REF 10 is concerned.......damn!  And yes, most times, I have heard equipment in my own system.

How many of us have been seriously disappointed buying something with out hearing it in our system first only to bring it home, hook it up and say, wait a minute, this doesn't sound nearly as good as I remember in the store?

I've never heard Block Audio amps, but if WC says they sound great with the REF 10, Neolith set up, after all he has heard, I believe him.

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When you get into the stratosphere area of High End Audio, there (in my opinion) isn't jaw dropping differences.  Differences yes, but jaw dropping?  not in my experience.

How long has the REF 10 been on the market?  Some people complain that Audio Research comes out with new stuff quite often and that may be the case for their lower high end or middle high end equipment.  But to beat the REF 10?  That they are probably finding is pretty hard to do.  Unless budget is unlimited and the selling price really over the top.

As usual, for most of us, price/budget is a factor.  So, demonstration equipment or used equipment is the way to go for some of us.  that typically means either 1) the previous owner found money enough to get that Maybach and will let the AMG or regular Mercedes go for a good price.  Same for audio equipment.  I've seen REF 10s on the used market for about $14,000.  Not bad considering it sells new (who buys retail?) for $30,000.  but, $14,000 is still a large chunk of change for most of us. 

but I tell you what, if and when I can justify (funny word in this hobby) the money for a REF 10, I'm grabbing it.  Can't believe I wrote that.

it is an absolutely wonderful pre-amp.  Also, there is no such thing as a thing being overpriced.

an item, any item is worth exactly what you are willing to pay for it.  If you aren't willing to pay that amount for something, then, to you, it isn't worth it.  But to some others, it may well be.  has nothing to do with you does it?

give credit where credit is due.  Audio Research makes some really nice equipment.  So do some others out there.  That is why this is such a great and interesting hobby.

I am interested in the large differences WC is hearing with the new amps over the Block amps.  The first question I would have is did you match volume levels before serious listening? 

Anyway, this is about WC's blog and journey through the many levels and categories of audio equipment.  This experience is unlike any I have seen or heard about other than reviewers in audio magazines.  Which, unfortunately, I have stopped believing most reviewers. 

but, if one can take a piece of equipment out of their system and place another into the same system and listen, that is the best way to do it.  Change only one thing, listen again and make a determination.

I did that going from my Audio Research SP 11, which with new tubes was really close to the REF 3.  then the REF 3, compared directly to a REF 5SE and a REF 6 at the same time.  Know what?  The REF 3 even today is a really great pre-amp.  The REF 5SE was better.  Jaw dropping better?  no.  The REF 6 better than the REF 5SE.  so I got one. 

I see a REF 10 on the horizon. But that will probably only happen if Audio Research comes out with some new fangled pre-amp better than the REF 10 (good luck with that) and people start off loading their REF 10s to get the newer pre-amp.

I am absolutely enjoying reading about WC's adventures.  But I can tell you right now that when he starts delving into Analog/Vinyl equipment.  Oh boy!!!!!

This is fun.

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Sorry, forgot point #2 in the third paragraph.

2) I found it at a store where I'm known as a good customer and the owner sells it to me for a really really good price.

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I'm in agreement with most responses and things said here.  I just have a personal issue with brand bashing when;

1) one hasn't heard that particular piece personally or more importantly,

2) one hasn't heard that particular piece in their system directly comparing it to another piece.

As I said, if you change more than one thing and then listen, you can't really tell if you are hearing that particular piece or a combination of pieces and equipment.

There are hard working people that work for Parasound, Audio Research, Atmosphere, and many other companies, where most of them are hard working, honest people that produce good products.  They has families to take care of.

Bashing is non productive.

WC is correct in that he cannot try everything or may not even want to.  He has a level of costs, performance and expectation and doesn't want to really go down in quality just to satisfy someone else's curiosity.

I typically let things ride until I hear someone bash a company or product they haven't tried personally. Even bashing is too strong for me.  Some gear is better than others, but bad?  terrible?  horrible?  crap?  come on!

different, yes. not as good in certain ways as another piece?  possibly. 

I can put Sony or Yamaha gear with Martin Logan Neolith speakers and if they can handle the impedance of the speakers, they will sound pretty good. Better than Audio Research?  probably not.  So what else could be making this sound not so great?  hmmm?  lets think about that a minute.

I've demo'd equipment that initially sounded not good at all. Come to find out that the piece wasn't really designed to be matched with the other piece at all.  So, there.  That was the reason. the piece wasn't bad at all, I just didn't read the owner's manual. My mistake.

When WC gets a new piece, removes an existing piece and inserts the new piece, plays his music and returns to the existing piece and compares, boy, that's what I look forward to.  But you can screw with a piece by changing some cables also and totally mess up everything.  Cable rolling can be a real mess.

anyway, I'm enjoying the ride.

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Same equipment, including source, cabling, conditioning, speakers, room, etc.  Change amp and listen again.  That is really the only true way to make a determination of this sort.  A/B comparison with changing only one thing. 

Otherwise, the difference in sound could be attributable to any number of things that were changed.  no way to get around that.

In WC's case, he has not only changed amps, he has changed, pre-amps, cables, speakers, etc.  It would probably be physically impossible for him to change only one thing. So, we are taking his impressions on the move as life goes on.

I have no problem with that. 

My issue (if it really is one) is that most of the equipment he has tried has actually been quite nice.  So, I would be very careful saying that something is bad.  It just may not have worked well in that particular setup with some of the equipment used at that time.

Pass labs makes outstanding equipment. period.

With the system WC has now as his "reference".  Amps, speakers, cables, source, pre-amp.  If he were to go back (I know it is impossible, so don't kill me here) and re-evaluate the pieces he has tried previously, only replacing that one piece, I can believe that he would hear differences.  But keeping within price points on equipment, I can say that I don't think there will be jaw dropping differences between equipment in the same price point category.

Like I said earlier.  For example, Parasound make quite decent equipment.  Place them with Martin Logan Neolith speakers and they will sound quite nice.  If they didn't it may be because of many reasons.  1) room, 2) cables, 3) power condition, 4) terrible music (have experienced this at shows), 4) any number of things. 

I am appreciating WC's journey through the "high-end" audio world. It is quite fascinating.  But, people should take this with a grain of salt.  It is quite fun, but, other than taking someone's word for it, what is the best ways to judge equipment?

1) take it home and place that piece in your system, changing only that piece, match levels and listen.  Do A/B vs the original piece and have fun.

2) go to a friend's house and listen to his/her system with that particular piece and judge.  Understanding that if you buy that piece and take it home, most times it will perform quite differently in your system than in your friends.

3) go to shows and hear a piece in the set-up presented at the show.  With the understanding that Number 2 above will also apply.

WC is giving (in my opinion) an honest view of how certain pieces sound in his system.  I like that.  But, I do understand and acknowledge that along the way, he has changed many things.  So, direct comparisons were not possible in some cases. in others, like now, there can be direct A/B comparisons.

So, my point (finally) is that I wouldn't be so quick to say that previous equipment tested was inferior or bad or lacking.  It was and is an evolutionary process, not direct A/B comparisons.  so memory plays into this in a very real way.  But, that memory has to also consider that it was more than one piece, or room, that changed.

Still great fun and I'm enjoying this greatly.

Tell you what I would really like now. 

Audio Research REF 10 pre amp vs Atmosphere top of the line pre, vs CAT, etc.  Changing only the pre-amp.  I know, hard to do, but wouldn't that be fun also?

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Folks, this thread has never really gotten off track.  Some have offered opinions about equipment, room set up, cables, etc.  nothing wrong with that.  WC has kept the thread going with his review and progress in acquiring equipment, adjust room set up, speaker set up, cabling, etc. 

I'm enjoying the journey.  I, however, don't like the attacks and trolling (is that the word?).  there is absolutely nothing wrong with people's opinions.  Whether or not they have actually listened to equipment.  They still may have a technical discussion and offer their opinions based on previous use of a manufacturer's equipment or based on their knowledge of the technical design of the equipment.  Either is still valid.  please stop with the attacks on some that have opinions.  If you don't agree or like it, simply ignore it.

I don't agree with WC's opinion regarding whether a person has actually heard a piece or not.  That doesn't not invalidate educated and informed opinions.  I do, however, respect WC's opinions and his view point.  I can respect another's voice but still not agree with it.  No reasons for attacks.

I most certainly didn't agree with the person's opinion in the video clip. 

As an Electrical/Electronics Engineer, I can tell you that there are certain circuit designs and lend to certain flaws or characteristics that are not optimal.  Nothing wrong with expressing that knowledge without hearing the piece.  I won't however, bash the piece.

As many are finding out, it may not be the piece of equipment at all that's at fault, it may be power condition, cabling, downstream equipment, etc.  lots of factors.  So, to simply say, that piece of equipment is crap is totally defeating the entire purpose of threads like this. 

I read earlier a poster say he/she heard the Neolith speakers at a show and they sounded bad.  Well, no "they" didn't.  The setup and room sounded bad to him/her, not particularly the speakers.  What other devices were used in the setup and what was the room like?

Anyway, I've been on Audiogon for quite some time and enjoying this thread, but I have a real problem with people that insult and attack and bash.  For small companies, sometimes all it takes is one bad review or reviewer to end that company.  It could be bad set up, bad downstream, equipment or a terrible reviewer. 

go see the outstanding movie ("Chef"), and see a perfect example of a food reviewer and chef going at it. 

I know personally that Parasound makes quite nice equipment.  On par for the upper top of the line high end equipment?  probably not, but bad equipment, not close and good hardworking people work at Parasound.

I don't agree with Viber at times, but I respect his/her opinions and you have to admit, he/she has excellent background and valid opinions.

same is true for many others here.

I'm enjoying WC's journey and I appreciate all the people that have participated in the thread and I have to say, I'm learning so much from you all.

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