Thank you very much for all of your efforts Jay! Bravo!
I am not surprised by any category. However, I forget if you have talked about the comparison between your VAC monos VS the Gryphon monos. Would like to know the differences between ultimate tubes vs transistors. I remember in some of your videos the VACs do sound the best I have ever heard. Same goes for the pre-amp. I forgot if you have talked about Soulution vs Gryphon vs VACs in the pre-amp field. Lastly, it seems no "streamer/DAC" category. Don't know if you don't want to talk about the DACs or you have forgotten.
Nitpicking aside, incredible journey and efforts! Wish you could test more great stuff and find more sponsors! Happy listening.
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Can't wait for the VAC and Gryphon comparison! Happy 2022 everybody
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Very nice comparison between XLF and Alexx Jay! Do you think the smaller speaker performs better in the midrange also applies to Alexia2 vs Alexx too? Or Alexx hits the sweet spot of everything!
Can’t wait for the Gryphon and VAC comparisons!
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Can’t wait for the Maestro Evo vs Alexia/Alexx(not sure which is more comparable) comparison!
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Anyone here has experiences with Nagra? Is it a good Swiss brand that could compete with Dan, Gryphon or other Swiss brands? |
@jg2077 I just demoed Nagra Classic Line vs Gryphon Essence. Nagra is more transparent and neutral, whereas the Essence has a very warm and analog sound, maybe the class-A sound. Essence sounds better in voice but Nagra really shines in orchestral music. I hope there is something that's between the two. Maybe Dan? |
Yeah, I have to say this hobby is so subjective. I am actually an Essence owner but Nagra Classic has many attributes that Gryphon Essence doesn't have, and some of them are good, some of them are bad. If you like a more warm sound but with a certain level of transparency and clarity, go for Essence. But if you like absolute transparency and clarity, you go for Nagra classic line. Now I am just wondering how does Dan Progression, which is a similar price to an Essence, sound among the three. |
@jg2077 Did you find a good line stage? I have tried Gryphon Pandora but didn't like it. I think Gryphon's amp is much better than their pre-amp. It is very very hard to find a good preamp. I am using the DAC to Amp direct now because I failed to find a good line stage. |
Thanks Jay! Gryphon should put you on their payroll given the fact that you have helped sold more Essence than a dealer lol! |
Huge thanks, everyone. Gryphon Essence vs Dan Progression. Anyone has compared the two? |
Also Jay: sounds like you have tried a lot of amplifiers that you have never talked about before. Hope someday you can share your opinions on all of those you've tried behind closed doors! Many thanks! |
Jay - speaking of music servers, do you think a dCS Rossini is good enough for most of the high-end systems? I have auditioned Rossini vs Vivaldi but didn't notice that much of a difference. Rossini v Bartok the difference is significant though. |
My biggest takeaway from your channel is that the diminishing of returns in speakers is far less than other components. Yes you can argue maybe a BMW X5 is better than Audi Q5, or a Mercedes G class is better than a range rover, that's fine I wouldn't argue that. That's what I learned about Gryphon, Dan, Constellation, Soulution, etc...Different people have different tastes. But if you are saying a Corolla or Audi A4 is better than a Bentley Mulsanne, man sorry I can hardly agree with you. So instead of spending a crazy amount of money on cables, electronics, racks, stands, etc... focus on speakers first, that is still the most important thing that affects your sound. If you save that ten grand cable money, or that 15 grand rack money, or even that dCS Vivaldi money, you can a get much better pair of speakers. |
I have been through multiple speakers in your previous playlists, from your old Sasha DAW, Alexia 2, Focal, Alexx, Magico M6, to the now big Alexandria. And I realize one thing: Yes, sources, electronics, cables, and racks will change the tone and color; may bring more resolutions and details. But the size of the speakers/drivers still plays the most important factor (of course they have to be manufactured by a great audio company, which includes all of the above) The Alexandria simply throws away all of their smaller siblings, smaller Magico, smaller Focal, no matter what electronics you feed them. You could put a Mcintosh or Parasound or NAD on this and can simply sound amazing in terms of sound stage, scale, and fullness. I guess the only speakers you can beat this are probably Wilson WAMM ($855,000) Magico M9 ($750,000) or the MBL 101X-treme ($263,000 but you will need the whole MBL set-up which could come to half a mil total) or the biggest Kharma (EV 1D $812,500)... size does matter, in this business |
@thezaks Thank you for your comments. You are exactly right. The Alexx was a newer model and they were more refined in HF. I could argue maybe the Magico or Estelon or other brand speakers which use diamond/ceramic/other high-tech materials may produce more accurate highs. I am just saying in terms of scale and a real PA feeling most of these can't beat XLF. I compare Jay's High Water Everywhere (Live) in Alexia 2, Alexx, and XLF vs the real live show on Youtube. You can clearly hear that even the XLF can't reach the level of a real-world drum in terms of bass extension. I guess if one uses a 20 inches taiko the difference is more evident. If you want to listen to some vocals, some piano or violin sonatas, you can choose any of those speakers and can enjoy music. But if you want to bring a real death metal or Mahler symphony 8 concert into your home, XLF is the closest to the deal. So it depends on taste and practicality. It's better if you think Alexx is good enough for you because you can save HALF of your money on the speakers :)
PS. quote JA on Alexx vs XLF: But when Michael asked me if the measurements confirmed that he should sell his Alexandrias and buy the Alexxes, I'm afraid I punted. As much as I agree with Michael about the superiority of the Alexx's midrange and highs, I missed the Alexandria's lows.—John Atkinson |
You don't want to compare an AHB2 to a Nagra classic amp the same as you don't want to compare an entry-level Mcintosh to a Gryphon Essence. There are brand premiums that Nagra and Gryphon charge you for sure. But they can charge that amount of price simply because their sound quality can hold that value. Just like the dCS can charge 10 times more than a Benchmark DAC and people still love to buy them. You can argue maybe 10 times is too much? But dCS is in every way better than a Benchmark DAC. I actually chuckled when I did the comparison. Like when I heard an LS3/5a and then a Wilson Audio. I chuckled too. |
This thread was about Audi and BMW. Now it is about Ferrari and Lambo. We are not talking about Honda or Toyotas here. There is a Japanese anime called Initial D. Guy was driving a Toyota AE86 and beats the Subaru, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi, Honda Civic-R, and even Nissan GTR. Did he try to compete with a Bugatti or a Koenigsegg? No...... Is Toyota AE86 a great car? Hell yeah, it is. The Bluesound Node is a great product too! Is it Wadax Atlantis? |
There are a lot of other threads on Audiogon talking about cheaper gears. You can even go to Audio Science Review for those reviews. I found some of those useful too. But there is only one Jay talking about Ferrari and Lambos here. Do we really want to turn his thread/channel into another ’best DAC under $2000’ or ’Audioquest is the No.1 snake-oil company ever exists’?
Giving it a second thought, Jay, if you want to change the direction and review cheaper gears, you may gain more followers. It is your thread and channel. No matter what directions you choose I will always support you and watch your show. I watch you because of your personality, not because of what gears you review... |
Jay - if you add two best subs to an Alexx do you think it can compare to an XLF, at least in LF? what does a bigger speaker like that can give you that a smaller speaker doesn't - even if you put them in the similar volume level. |
That system sounds nice, so as my old Mcintosh and B&W 600 series. But that is nowhere close to my or Jay’s Wilsons with expensive gears. The bass and resolution are just not there. I am sorry I really want to spend only $3000 and get the sound to beat the $30000 or even more systems. Trust me I don’t want to spend any money on snake oil. But when I have tried different DACs, ranging from Bluesound, Benchmark, Mcintosh, Naim, Chord, Mytek, Auralic even Burmester, Gryphon in my room. And then I demoed a dCS Rossini. And it was DAY and NIGHT. Sorry I really wanted the dCS to sound like crap and just leave me with the $3000 Mcintosh preamp with built-in DAC and phono stage and saved the extra ten grand, TEN GRAND hard-earned money! But that is just not the case. I think most brands, not all of them, price their products for the sound quality. Why would anyone spend $20000 on a turntable, $20000 on arm and cartridges and another $20000 on a phono stage? Are they stupid? No! They can hear the differences that’s why they spent all that money! Some people spent thousands on wine and whiskey. Will I do that? No, because I can barely taste the difference. And I don’t care. But I would never judge people who spent that amount of money on wine and whiskey because I am pretty sure they can enjoy the differences. Why when it comes to diamonds, cars, drinks they understand the premium part but not with the audio products? I have always been asking this question... |
@viber6Thank you for your comments on Benchmark vs Nagra. I have heard both of them in different settings. I haven't ABed them in my own system so you are right claiming Nagra is better than Benchmark is hasty. However, in different settings, Nagra is more often combined with high-end gears such as Wilson Audio, Magico, etc... I have never seen someone uses a Benchmark to pair with very expensive gears. And of course they both sound good, but in different levels. And spending that amount of money doesn't guarantee you the good sound. But it can give you a certain sound that no other brands can give you. Nothing on this market could sound like a Gryphon, and nothing could sound like a Nagra. Nagra uses all Mundorf capacitors and have huge current supply, which are very expensive themselves. You can use them to drive huge speakers like Wilson Alexia 2 and play things like 1812 Overture without any problem. I doubt Benchmark has that kind of capabilities. If a Benchmark can use all cheaper parts and sound like a machine that utilizes all expensive parts, the entire ultra-end audio industry should all close their shops. I don't think Nagra can exist in this market if their products can charge six times than the Benchmark does and sound completely the same. But again, maybe 6 times is too much. HiFi is very subjective and even if I told you that any brand sounds better than other brands, it is meaningless because what you think is not what I think. I think spending $10k on Chanel bags doesn't make any sense. A lot of girls that I know think it does. They think spending $10k on cables doesn't make any sense as well...
I like your way of critical thinking though. It adds some different flavor into this thread so I encourage you to keep posting. I just hope this thread and Jay can keep doing the ultra-end stuff.
Also, I think there are good Class D amplifiers. MBL N15, which is $35200 a pair, sounds magnificent, especially when driving MBL speakers. But I also think the best sounding class D amplifiers would still be uber-expensive.
Any discussion/suggestion/thinking is warmly welcomed :)
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I have heard both. Both sound good. Extremes definitely in another league!
Speaking of cheaper hacks, anyone here has tried to stack their subwoofers? I have seen Rel has this line array trying to stack six subs to form a better bass. Most speaker companies they share their tweeters and midranges drivers throughout their lines but the difference is always the bass unit. I am always wondering if you use a say Sasha DAW and stack 6 huge Rel subs would it sound like an Alexx? Crossover is hard but you can tune each sub by yourself. If it can give you the bass that a bigger speaker can give you, this might be a great hack since even six big subs can sometimes be cheaper than upgrading your loudspeaker + power amp. |
Yeah I would assume so. Just curious to find out what six high-end subs can give you. I know even some WAMM users add subs as well... ahh I like bass in my face so I never understand Magico. They do sound well with Gryphon though, just less bass.
MBL has this royal feeling of sound... really good for jazz and classical. Never heard them play rock or pop though. |
viber6,
I think you said it there. You want the utmost clarity but not big scale dynamics as well as deep bass. Nagra can deliver that as well. So as the Gryphon... There is no point comparing which one is better because they all sound different and cater to different customers. Being a happy Essence owner, I agree with Jay's comment on Essence being the best amp < $25000. But a lot of people may have different tastes and think the other way, which I also respect.
Are you a soloist or play in an orchestra. I would like to know who's your favorite violinist? Mine used to be Heifetz but now more towards Menuhin. Perlman is my favorite currently alive :) |
@jays_audio_lab Could you kindly describe what kind of person would love to own a Gryphon, Constellation or Boulder? Like how different do they sound? I assume they are all the best in their own way. |
Also wants to hear about 1161. @viber6 Nagra is not looking for the absolute transparency. I think you have mentioned AHB6 may already possess that signature. Nagra is more like transparent and detailed tubey sound, less magical than the Essence. When you are at this price level you are looking for a sound signature, not necessarily the most detailed/warmth... but a very good combination of the two. Warm, musical yet detailed. |
@keithr I disagree with you need $23k amp for $50k amp speaker purchase. My old Wilson Sabrina ($16k) can clearly tell the differences between an Mcintosh and a Gryphon. I think even B&W 805D3 ($7000) can do it as well... You can argue it may not tell the differences between an Essence and a Mephisto since the sound signature is similar but the power is different. The entry level of a Gryphon is like an entry level Aston Martin... it is just a different animal...
I don't think Hi-End is dying. There are more and more great brands coming out and the competition is more fierce than before. It is more burgeoning than dying. If the Hi-End brand stays as-is and don't improve their products, they are dying... |
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Just list some names you have reviewed: Dan Dagostino, PassLabs, Gryphon, Merrill, Boulder, Constellation, Luxman, Soulution
Things not on Youtube but you have mentioned that you had tried: Bryston, Mcintosh, Mark Levinson, Nagra, SimAudio, Parasound, NAD, Krell, Rotel, Classe, Cary, PS Audio, Plinius, Theta, Emotiva, ATI, Bel Canto, Bricasti, Audio Research
Things I am not sure if you have tried: Conrad Johnson, VTL, Mola Mola, Ayre, Dartzeel?, FM acoustics?, CH Precision?, MBL? Verity? Jadis? Shindo
I may miss something there but here you goes. |
@viber6
I don’t think Dan is warm either. If he really likes warmth he should go for Burmester or Mcintosh, let alone tubes. JVS uses mostly solid state I believe. dCS is also very transparent. There is a category of transparency but still musical.
Why do you think an instrument can have a character. But electronics shouldn't? I think we have figured out the measurement of a Strad. But still can't replicate the sound from it. To most of the audiophiles, or even pianist who doesn't play a violin, speakers/amplifiers/turntables are our instruments. And turntables too, they all have a character as well. Some prefer heavy ones (VPI), some like the light ones (Rega)... again, both very neutral, but have different characters and philosophies behind them.
I believe you really should send your Bryston to Jay for a shoot out. It doesn’t matter if his or yours sound better. But to really promote it you need to do an A/B testing and let everyone hears it. Maybe the end result will be Bryston or Benchmark is really really good for the price, very close to the high-end gear. That way a lot of people, who love music like yourself, but don’t want to go crazy like us, would purchase a Benchmark or Bryston. |
@viber6 Gryphon Essence is not warm like an Mcintosh. It is warmer than Nagra means Nagra has a brighter but lean sound. Essence is still very transparent but with a magical touch. I think you can read JVS's article: https://www.stereophile.com/content/gryphon-essence-mono-power-amplifier'the (Dan Dagostino) Progressions delivered a fuller sound while bringing to the fore instruments that had previously been buried in the orchestral blend. But the sheer entrancement of listening to Schubert's joy-infused melodies through the Essence monoblocks was not repeated.' Think of it as a Stradivarius violin. It is not the violin with all the high-tech or the utmost transparency, but it is highly musical and when falls in the right hand (like when Essence pairs with nice gears), it just sounds magical. I think Benchmark, Mcintosh, Gryphon, Dan all measure pretty well. very very low THD that no one can actually hear them. But they do sound very different from one another... I thinkwe need a new set of specs to evaluate this... I do hope someday a regular priced amp could sound like the Gryphon today. Because then I would like to hear how an expensive gear could sound like in the future. There will always be consumer priced stuff and high-end stuff. Like large screen TV was uber expensive back then. But now they are like under $2k you can get a pretty decent and large TV. There is still $10k TV/Projector out there if you are looking for 100-inch TV. I wouldn't need that. But for people who own them, 'good for you bro!' |
I agree with both of you. And we all know that every sound/record engineer has already put his/her own preference into the recordings. Therefore, perhaps, what we have heard is already far from the truth. At the end of day, when we listen to music we just want to hear what we like. I have a smaller turntable system which I would love to put tubes on it because the turntable itself is already pretty distorted. I know it is far from the truth and doesn't sound like the real deal. Most of the instruments I have heard are actually pretty bright if we think about it... I believe we have all heard what damage a violin beginner can cause :)
I just think the capitalism in the US is pretty efficient and can expose most of the snake-oil by its market equilibrium. If someone charges a high price to a product, I think that they know what they are doing and they know the market pretty well.
Love to see the AHB vs Hign-end comparison. We may be surprised about the result. I don't think it can compare with the Essence though. Essence is really different from anything on the market. It is pretty revealing but with that magical airy touch that nobody can replicate... |
If you want 1st row experience and accuracy, then you need the XLF to really give you that right? A 6-inch bookshelf can never give you the real sound produced by a bass or a drum… let alone organ, taiko, etc… |
Just demoed the Alexx V with Dan Dagostino Momentum Monos and Nagra HD preamp. Magnificent soundstage and clarity. Nagra HD, priced at $68000, is the best preamp I have ever heard, not losing any clarity and details but also makes the sound more real and better. Momentum Monos are just powerful and sweet. Alexx V is amazing as well, though I really want to hear out if XLF sounds better. Jay you may not like the classic line, at $20000 level Gryphon is better. But the HD preamp, amp and DAC all price at $70000, which even Gryphon price can’t compare. If you have a chance to get a deal on those please try them! |
Just like a $2000 amp can’t beat a $20000 amp, it’s very hard to find a $20000 preamp beating the $70000 preamp. I guess they dare to price it at $70000 for a reason. But you do need a very big pair of speakers like Alexx or bigger to reveal the true power of electronics at this level…
your new video is awesome. Looking forward to seeing the second and third tier of amps. Also wanna see the speaker tiers as well!!! |
If you live in the New England area you know that the only Wilson dealer only carries McIntosh, Naim and Bryston. So I heard a lot of McIntosh and actually bought the pair because they don’t have anything else better. But once you heard other brands you know how behind the McIntosh is. |
Gee.. why can’t we just being decent and say: Jay, would love to know what are those tube amps! But saying something utterly ironic and unnecessary. Why do you think being hostile will make people do things you want?
Really looking forward to seeing the worst of the amps, especially those charge for big $$$ and pretends to be hifi. I would guess McIntosh being one of them, but they don’t actually charge a huge amount comparing to a lot of other brands. Mark Levinson still charges a lot for their high-end tier.
same goes for the speakers. I heard Avalon and Rockport the other day and found them sound good but always missing something that the Wilson’s actually delivers. But this is just my opinion. |
The best I have heard are their 2kw mono blocks and their C53 preamp. Granted I haven’t heard their new 901 model. They are not bad. But they can’t be compared to the Gryphon, Dan Dagostino, Spectral or sim audio. And again they are not that expensive to some of the brands mentioned above. They are good products but to claim legendary performance they need to do better than that. And I am talking about the solid state. They may do better in tubes but I haven’t owned many tube amps so can’t comment on that. But I do heard people prefer Audio Research than theirs. |
Your work will pay off Jay. Once you have a feeling of all ultra end brands, you may want to select a couple of them and start dealing for them because you know their products in and out, like Gryphon. You have already done it by doing the consulting service. I think you can do better than most of the dealers because they just want to sell stuff but not thinking about the synergies, like the Wilson dealer who only gets McIntosh.
and I feel you on working hard and spending on audio. I am willing to do the same. I like cars as well but I won’t spend 100k on cars. I would on audio because I just love music so much and would love to stay home and listen to them all day. If I own an McLaren, how many miles can I put on it? 50000 miles and then spend another 100k on it? A 100k audio system can give you satisfaction for decades. |
Spectral nowadays is really about the whole system. Some people just like their sound - fast, nimble and detailed. I think they sound good but just too much of a commitment. I think they make better preamp than their amps and you don’t have to use MIT on the preamp. I like the fact that they don’t care AT ALL about commercials. Even Benchmark does a lot of commercials on Stereophile/TAS. You never see a single spectral ad. And if you go to their website you would just find that they don’t care about that either… I think they are cool given the fact that they don’t care about promotions at all but can still be alive for these many years. They must do something really in order to survive in this competitive industry. |
I still think Jay has a long way to go. He hasn't showed a lot of brands yet. To name a few: DartZeel, Soulution amp, Nagra HD, Dagostino Relentless, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, AudioNote, CH in the amplifier world. Many more in the speaker world: Kharma, Estelon, YG, etc... in his room. I actually think even doing all these could keep him busy for the next 10 years lol.
Where is the guy who wants to send Jay the Benchmark??? |
Hi Jay. Do you think ARC has good synergy with the Gryphon amp? Or you have to use Gryphon's preamp or the Soulution to drive the Gryphon amp? |
Sorry got a basic question: What’s the difference between a music server like an Aurender and a music streamer like a dCS Rossini or Bluesound Node?
Is a NAS or Roon Nucleus a music server? |
What is the best preamp you have heard under $20000? |
Hi Jay, do you think the power cell is better than the AQ Niagara and the Shunyata Everest? Thanks! |
Very cool video. Look forward to the ARC rant! |
I also vote for DAC direct. That way we have less components in the chain and can hear the amps directly. Adding a preamp may bring closer the SQ of two amps because it adds more signature into the sound. But it's just my opinion. |
If this is the case I still vote for DAC direct. This is not about your current gear vs your previous gear. This is about comparing two power amps head to head. So the less thing in the chain, the more we can hear from the amp directly. |
Based on what I have heard from the demo 1, I will have to give Rouge Audio a huge thumbs up. For sure I was not there so couldn't really compare what has happened. But from my equipment I didn't feel day and night differences there. And they are both used with the reference cables, DAC, speakers and preamp so can't tell how many % are actually from the amps. Will it make me to sell my Gryphon and buy the Rouge? Probably not. Anyways Rouge Audio is a great product for its price from what I have heard here. Both A & B sounds fine, maybe not the best, but definitely not broken.
Look forward to the next demos! |
Great discussion. Jay to be honest on YouTube if you do the level matching, Alexia 2 do sounds similar to the XLF. I have played man in the moon in different videos and they sound alike. Maybe it’s better on XLF but then you prob have a better mic there. YouTube can’t give you the sense of scale, tall soundstage, 3D effect and even lower bass on better equipment. I can feel that the 15% differences on YT could be translated to 100% in real live music. Still, is my Essence 10 times better than Rouge? Probably not. But even it is 2 times better, I am still keeping it and will be willing to purchase it again.
A nice question for you is what do you think the Rogue amp compares to the McIntosh tube amp or even ARC tube amp. Comparing it to the VACs are meaningless. |
