Been following this thread from a long while. Thanks WCSS for creating such an awesome journey for us all to follow. Owning a couple of pairs of ML ESLs, I was hoping you would pick up the Neolith!
From my experience with MLs, they are some of the hardest speakers to drive. I currently have the 11As (space limitations), and even with those, the more the power the better for the soundstage, depth, clarity, and base. Every tweak is noticable in the system. Just today I moved the speaker 6 inches closer together and the highs compressed, I spread them back out and they opened up.
@ricred1 totally agree with you. @technodude if you follow the development of the Neolith it was a pet project within ML to create their best speaker. The only requirement was that it be able to fit through doors. I really don’t think they expected to sell a lot and not sure they have bothered with any large marketing efforts on these speakers. I have always imagined they would be some of the hardest speakers to drive given the size of the panel and passive woofers.
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@Techno, why would you want to put a DAC in a high end preamp? That’s the one technology that needs to be upgraded over the years and somewhat depreciates quicker. Sure, you could go with the approach of the McIntosh integrateds by adding in an upgradeable DAC but who knows if they will even support it down the road. Only reason to really upgrade a pure preamp (no DAC) is for the sound preference not functionality. |
I really like AQ and have a lot of their cables, but I do have to agree that their recent PCs and speaker cables are clouded in a mystery. Was talking to a dealer and he mentioned the AQ reps didn't have much insight on the cables either. Yet they can be purchased today.
For Nordost, I remember reading a forum member on Stereophile doing some interesting mods to their Valhalla v1 PC to get lower-level detail. Very old post, but could be an interesting read, not sure how valid his conclusions are though. Just google "Truth about Nordost Valhalla power cord." I have always been intrigued by Nordost, hope to try the newer Valhallas.
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Well everyone is in luck, a bunch of Odin power chord popped up in the marketplace... |
Techno, all electrostats need power, albeit very little power. The pure elecrostats use the power to accomplish what Viber said above. This technology has been around for 40+ years. Some of the upper-mid-range ML hybrid electrostats have internal amps for the woofers, but don't confuse that with what WC has. The Neolith's are hybrids but have no internal amplification so the external amps drive the entire speaker.
While Magnepans are planar, they aren't electrostats. They are planar magnetic, so a tad different in the way it works.
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WC’s journey has been awesome and enjoyable. Nowhere did he say he set out to make everyone happy. He is just sharing his experience, talking about it and getting feedback.
One thing I would say is this thread really does need less insults and bullying. Not to mention absolutes when discussing something. This almost always leads thread derailing.
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The point Viber raises for clarity vs. depth is an interesting one. I have been trying to figure out how to balance the two for a while. I pinpointed this down the the interconnect to the amp for my setup.
I have been using AQ Earth copper interconnects and the soundstage, depth, and bass were amazing but noticed the vocals were always a tad muted and classical interments (piano, string instruments) never sounded "sharp" or realistic. Picked up some older AQ Niagara (equivalent to the current Wind) silver interconnect cables and it was the reverse. Amazing clarity but lost some of the mid-bass and soundstage decreased. I generally prefer the Niagara because of the amazing transparency, and realism of the vocal and instruments.
Some say the higher end AQ silver interconnects (Wild and WEL in particularly) solve this issue by adding far more balanced and controlled bass. But I haven't heard either yet to compare.
FWIW, from my limited experience, it seems like components can use bass to give off a sense of soundstage sometimes at the cost of clarity and transparency. In all honesty, I go back and forth and times can't figure out which sound I like better. I want both, next up for me are some higher end silver interconnects...
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WCMSS, if you decided to move away from Odins at some point, you may want to put the new AQ series cables into serious consideration. The power cables have already been discussed and their new speaker cables use some of that technology.
I have been talking to a lot of dealers and AQ directly about how much improvement the new cables make and even their top Thunderbird copper cable bests their older top of line silver at 4x the cost. If you biwire they bring some of their new power cable technology into their seaparate bass cable.
Supposedly they have minimized a lot of the noise and bring out the sound more clearly without effecting tonality. But haven’t heard these myself yet. |
Also @jafox have you tried AudioQuest with Martin Logan speakers? You mentioned they don’t give 3D space. If so, which speaker cables?
From my experience, AQ pairs really well with ML and gives some of the most amazing 3D sound stage I have heard. The thicker the speaker wire the more the soundstage increases from what I have tried. |
Jafox, totally get where you are coming from. Was just asking since a friend and I were listening to a well recorded album on my MLs with all AQ cabling (speaker + interconnects) and we literally thought someone walked in the room since the sound had such a 3D soundstage.
As Viber mentioned, MLs are probably some of the most unforgiving speakers I have heard. Hit it with an amazing setup and source, and it can be unreal. Bad source = generally bad experience. But I have never heard Maggies to compare with which are also supposed to be fantastic. |
Viber, you are totally right. Didn’t mean to make it absolute. It all depends on occompanying equipment as well and it’s hard ever that bad.
Jafox, great post - for me when I say transparent is more to describe when speakers can let you hear every little thing that you change in the system. I have heard ML speakers that sound super thin and sterile and hear another setup with same speakers and they sound like being at a live concert. Different than accuracy. I was picking up interconnects and a Meridian streamer from a local dealer and he was telling me the same thing. They sold a pair of 13As right before I got there and he was saying how the buyer was floored at the difference he heard from thier setup (matched with Rowland monoblocks and AQ cables) compared to other demos he heard.
I think ML has definitely improved over the years, just haven’t compared with much earlier models. But as you said it’s all synergy and above all personal preference. One person’s “this sounds terrible” is another person’s “best thing ever!” |
@pokey77 Are you asking analog or digital?
I think Starlight is their digital cable series and Eclipse is their analog interconnect. |
Do you know which Constellation amp and preamp? |
Funny, I have seen a few Rowland amps and never noticed the lack of banana support. Good to know!
Curious to see how the 535s bridged do with the Neoliths. They are rated for only 8ohm, but since they are class D I would imagine this is a non-issue. |
That’s one amazing looking piece of audio gear.
I do get a kick out of how they say “Designed to be Invisible”, I know they mean for sound but aesthetically it’s far from it! |
WC, have you gotten in touch with Martin Logan to ask their thoughts as another data point? These are very different speakers given the massive curved electrostats combined with the massive bass woofers. I saw a pair of Neoliths in person recently and they are even bigger than what I imagined.
Btw, thanks for your insight on the Luxman 509X. Replaced the MC452 with the 509X and it added so much more detail but not losing smoothness. Amazing how you really can’t rely on watt numbers, the 509X are driving my 11As as well if not better than the MC452.
You mentioned that the Constellations sound amazing with some songs vs. others. Could it be they are very true to source, so when recordings are average they don’t sound great and when they are well recorded they sound amazing? |
MrD, for sure the MC452 is a great amp. Matching is important, I did a lot of A/B testing and realized that the MC452 just made string instruments sound unrealistic paired with my ML 11As. The MLs are already on the warm side, then adding the MC452, also warm, didn't make a good match for certain types of music especially classical and acoustic guitar. I compared it with the directly coupled MC7016 multichannel amp and thought the sound signature worked better with the 11As. I would really like to try out the the MC2301s at some point.
WC, one of the things I noticed when I demoed the m900u is that it combines clarity and resolution with a touch of tube warmth. Since you get the amazing resolution, you get the lower level listening clarity as well.
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I am not sure if it was mentioned but ATI manufactures the multichannel amps for Monoprice Monith series. They are not Class D but come at a really great price point. |
To add to WC’s point on hearing the a bigger difference between cables with higher end amps, when I switched to the 509X the difference between the AQ copper Earth and the silver Fire interconnects cables became glaringly obvious vs. prior amps I used. With the Fires, clarity, crispness, and bass control became obviously improved compared to the copper Earth cables. I was shocked how much of a difference there was between interconnects and previously questioned the 3x increase in cost going from Earth to Fires. |
Just out of curiosity is there any practical way to cover the surround speakers to avoid any of the negative impact when listening to 2ch?
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I can second how great the Marantz 8805 is, it's even upgradeable to HDMI 2.1 down the road. You mentioned the Denon 8500 which is also great and upgradeable as well. If I am not mistaken, it's also the only current Denon amp which you can shut off the amp section and just use as a pure pre/pro. The sound characteristic of Denon is a bit more energetic and a tad brighter than Marantz which some say they like better for movies.
I tend to stick with Denon/Marantz for A/V, since they just work, usually support everything that is needed at the time of purchase and many years down the road, and they sound great. |
I agree with ron17, the 3 most important speakers are the L/C/R. For movies, the majority of sound comes out of the center channel and the center needs to match the L/R speakers. Preferable with the same cables and amp. Otherwise, you will find yourself constantly raising the volume to hear the dialogue.
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WC, I would recommend separates, 8805/ATI amp. If I am not mistaken the ML speakers are 4ohm. The 8500 may not have enough power to give the dynamics for movies you may be looking for, especially if you run most of the channels.
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@WC Thoughts on Bel Canto Black system compared with the new batch of amps? I know it's been a while and you had the Black paired with different speakers as well. |
