viber
I have a better idea....at zero cost to you. Why don't you choose a piece of music that you think would best represent your system and record it with your phone, the same way Jay has been doing for months. Then send it to him so he can play it on his youtube channel for all of us to see and hear. We would not only get a taste of the music you think should be used to evaluate gear but also we would finally be able to see your system, the way you've set it up and the neutrality of it.....Maybe then we would better understand your point of view.
|
@ viber6
You criticized me for using the term 'almost tube like' when describing the midrange and top end of a solid state amp and then 2 days later you use the term 'mellow'. Hmmm..... mellow could be construed as a recessed (as apposed to a forward) presentation, lacking in bass information, rolled off top end, rolled off midrange, warm as opposed to cool. I think this common definition of "mellow" should be scrapped in favor of more informative descriptions of sound.
|
almarg was the go to guy for any audio technical questions in this forum. He posted several times on this thread when we were all stumped and needed questions answered. So sad to hear he is very sick.....makes me realize just how fragile we all are. I will really miss his thoughtful and informative posts. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/update-on-audiogon-member-almarg |
I have been using Nordost cables for over 15 years and never once have I ever heard them called 'mushy'....Fast, detailed, lean (version 1 only) just to name a few but mushy would be the exact opposite description of a Nordost cable. |
Nordost has cable loaner kits all the way up to Valhalla 2. As far as loaning out Odin 1&2, that would be up to the dealer to loan out their own demo cables. Usually Odin 1&2 are used in their top systems. Depends on the size and stock of the dealer....I have taken home an Odin 1 PC for 2 days and 1 night when the dealer was closed for their days off.
|
if i was actually contemplating spending odin kind of money i would think long and hard about spending the funds on an even higher level of gear, if possible.
Wow.......have you seen the OP's rig?
BTW the Odin 1's have unbelievable bass.
|
I've owned Nordost cables for over 15 years and have gone through almost every model. I found the original series (version 1) cables lean in the lower midrange upper bass area, but paired with a warm, laid back system they were a hard combo to beat. I had an all BAT (tube preamp and tubed monos) system with original Valhalla's 15 years ago that was such a great combo. I don't think the original Valhalla's paired with a forward, bright or lean system would be a good match. As with everything in audio it's all about synergy and proper matching.
I now have a mix of Valhalla 2's and Odin 1's in my system. They are warm, rich, detailed, refined and have a 'reach out and touch the vocalist' feel/sound to them. As far as being a bit tilted up in the highs and cut a bit on lower midrange richness density I'd have to say that poster has not heard them.
I think WCSS' offer to pay round trip shipping to anyone willing to send their cable for a comparison is a great idea. Would love to see that happen and I know if WC found your cable more to his liking (in his system) he would be honest and report it.
There are so many great sounding cables out there....so difficult to try them all.
|
"ezzigi, agreed with that review, Nordost Valhalla or Odin for power cable NO ( much overpriced)"
"Shunyata for power cable YES. Nordost Valhalla 2 or Odin for speaker cables YES. Nordost top tier speaker cables are the best you can find. They are truly remarkable. Expensive yes, but the very best have a cost. Not their powercables though."
techno, Are your statements on Nordost power cords based on actual listening tests in your system or dealer showroom? Or are they based on price alone? |
Speaking of conditioners...I still think you should try Nordost's Qbase8. Since you now finally have an all Nordost loom it would be worth a try. I believe the retail is $1800 and I'm sure you could do better than that. It really made a big difference in my all Nordost system. I would love to get your impression of it vs the AQ Niagara.
|
2010 Toyota Prius....that was going to be my 1st guess!
|
@thezaks
Hey Dave, I kinda remember a while back when you were interested in multi channel amps and asked WC about the Odeon. Without going back and searching this thread to find out the issues you had....what happened? I've heard such great things about it.
|
@thezaks Actually I had a similar problem. I've owned a Classe CA-5100 amp for years and really love it for 2 channel and HT applications. I completed a home remodel a few years ago and soon started having problems with that amp. After 1 hour of listening it would go into protection mode and shut down. This happened dozens of times over the course of a year. I had no idea what was going on. I talked to a tech at Classe several times who thought it was overheating, but it had plenty of space around it. I ended up sending it in for repairs. When they got the amp and checked the computer log within it they called me right away. The first thing they asked me was have you remodeled your home lately and added LED lights and or dimmers to your lighting? I had done both. They said the amp was sensitive to RF noise created by dimmers, LED lights and general AC pollution caused by a number of things. It had been fine for years until I did my remodel and then all hell broke loose! They did what they called a 'Japan Fix' on the amp....which was to expand the tolerance of the protection mode circuit. They said all of their amps sent to Japan had to be designed that way because of all of the RF pollution there......Long story but when I got the amp back I never had another problem with it. I've had many amps since my remodel and never had a problem with them..... Bottom line is every amp has different tolerances to RF noise/AC pollution.
|
From Nordost website:
Are Nordost cables directional? Yes, Nordost cables are directional. This is especially true for single ended (RCA) interconnects as the shield is connected at the source or output end only.
How can cables be directional? When cables are manufactured they do not have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality.
Although the cable signal is an alternating current, small impurities in the conductor act as diodes allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. This effect is also called quantum tunneling, which has been observed in experiments over 25 years ago. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are still diode effects in all conductors. In addition, the insulation material will change when it is subjected to an electrical field.
|
That being said I don't think the Odin1 speaker cables will sound their best until they are FULLY broken in. If I spent Odin1 money I would definitely have the retailer break them in on Nordost's Vidar (break-in machine) for the suggested 210 hours. Whether WC decides to do that or not is completely up to him. |
@psnyder149
So much to learn by picking the brains of manufactures and retailers at properly set-up demos. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.
|
Great sounding amp!
Can't be a Pass Labs amp or it would have melted the cover off. |
I played in rock bands for years and have attended 100's of LOUD concerts. Around 15 years ago I developed tinnitus and hyperacusis in my left ear. I still of course listen to music daily just at low levels. Loud concerts are now out of the question and even small acoustic venues require me to use ear protection.
That's living.
|
Thank you schubert. I really shouldn't have said 'that's living'. I was responding to dep14's post about how much fun loud rock concerts are (which I totally agree with). I just had too much fun and ended up damaging my hearing. BTW I think the difference between a classical music concert and a typical rock concert is about 20db.
|
@WCSS,
Your views on cables and after market power cords have changed in the last year or so. Do you see yourself experimenting with isolation products in the near future?
|
|
@viber6
Thank you so much for clarifying what the OP is trying to say. It's so very difficult to understand him sometimes.
|
@viber6
I was being sarcastic....thought it was obvious |
@ricred1
You're wasting your breath |
Amp rating:
A couple of things....after naming each category (1-10) and describing each one in detail and giving examples of each one, when you did finally go through and rate the Sim 860a v2 you skipped over category #6 (Soundstage Width & Depth). I had to go back and re-listen, write down each score in each category, add them up to deduce that category #6 = a rating of 6....no thoughts on why you rated it a 6....no big deal.
Also by using a rating system of 100 I'm guessing that the scores could range from 10-100. 10 being the worst score (1 point per each of the 10 categories) and 100 being the top score. I realized no amp could possibly score a 100. You stated that an amp either falls into either one of two categories....#4 Sweetness or #5 Slam & Dynamics. So no amp will score a 10 in both categories...right?
You described the 'Sweetness' category as "amps that are very sweet...like tubes". I don't want to get into the old 'tube amps are colored' thing but I very much agree with the YouTube poster 'stephen barnes' who posted on your channel saying...
"I don’t care for the way the sweetness rating is done. That skews sweet sounding amps with a higher score than a more neutral amp that maybe provides a better sound at neutral than one that is sweet but maybe dosnt stand up to the neutral amp in the quality of the sound. It assumes that sweet is the preference over neutral, since we are all trained to believe a higher number equates to better, where in this case it does not relate to better in my opinion."
Thanks Jay for all the hard work you put in for our enjoyment....it is much appreciated!
|
About 15 years ago I built a listening room within my garage. I did a lot of reading prior to determining the dimensions. I ended up with aprox. 16x22 although I angled the long wall so I could somewhat reduce parallel surfaces. Being a contractor I did most of the work myself. I used 2 layers of 5/8" drywall glued to studs and glued drywall to drywall. Used an acoustic drop-down ceiling and thick carpet on the cement floor. Of course I had an electrician run (4) dedicated 20a #10 wire lines for my components.
Good and Bad..... The good was I could blast away day and night and not bother other family members. I spent months setting speakers up in different ways, on different walls etc... The Bad was the room was completely sealed with no openings (like hallways, other rooms or open areas). At low listening levels the sound was great but at high listening levels the room kind of pressurized and had a closed in feeling/sound. I kept the room for 4-5 years then tore it down and moved back into the house to a room that was larger and that had hallways and open rooms adjoining the main room (for excess energy to escape/breathe).
My takeaway with this experiment is that if you are going to build a closed-in room within a garage you better be prepared to consult with an acoustician and spend some money on acoustic treatment to absorb excess energy. Looking at folkfreaks room (small and closed-in) but heavily treated (by a professional) is the way to get the best sound from that kind of room.
This is just my own personal experience....others may vary.
|
Definitely not trying to discourage you from building a dedicated listening room. Just saying it's not a slam dunk. A general contractor can easily build a room within a room but for it to sound good at listening levels of 80-90db is another thing altogether. Listening at low levels and at near field will have less room interaction but I know you like to crank it up.....I don't know folkfreak but he'd be the guy I would talk to if I wanted to do it right.
|
I totally appreciate the fact that Jay really loves 'sweet' sounding amps. It's just that he has two categories that are opposing...Sweetness vs Slam & Dynamics. If you score high in one you will score low in the other....according to the reviewer. And of course having one of each (amps) as a reviewer sounds like a must....just like having different sounding sets of cables etc.
I think the score of the Sim 860a v2 @ 71 is fantastic and right where it should be based on sound, value and all of the previous amps the reviewer has had and will have.
Jay, just curious how you would score the Luxman M900u in JUST the 2 categories of Sweetness and Slam & Dynamics?
Thanks again for your tireless work!
|
@WCSS
I'm guessing that your 'Overall Rating' of the Luxman M900u and the Simaudio 860a v2 are going to be fairly close. Referring again to the two categories (Sweetness vs Slam/Dynamics) you said it is possible to improve the Sweetness category by using a preamp or cabling but can you improve the Slam/Dynamics category of an amp?
How would you improve the sweetness of the Sim 860a v2?
How would you improve the Slam/Dynamics of the Luxman M900u?
|
I have the Classe Amp5 that I use for HT. I’m guessing it is close in sound to the Amp2. I’ve tested it against my other Classe CA-5100, Plinius SB-301 mk2 and my current Simaudio 870a....all in 2 channel music listening. I found the Amp5 to be very unmusical, 2D sounding and lifeless compared to the CA-5100 (class A/B design). Not even remotely close to the Plinius or the Sim. However I do think it is a very good, powerful, small, lightweight and cool to light warm running home theater amp.
|
@WCSS
Why don't you just borrow some of riaa's gear to evaluate....might save you a few bucks. |
@WCSS
Did you ever get the Valhalla 2 IC’s to try? My Nordost retailer told me the Valhalla 2 IC’s were a little more forward and fuller in the midrange than the Odin 1’s which he said were more neutral. Might be the perfect balance for your current set-up. FWIW |
@WCSS
I just finished re-wiring 2 dedicated 20a lines for my system. I used Audience's 'Hidden Treasure In-Wall AC Cable'. It was expensive but I have a short distance from my panel box to my system so I went for it. I figured if power cables make such a positive impact in sound quality why wouldn't AC cables from panel box to receptacle....I'm glad I did. The following is from Audience's website.
Hidden Treasure In-Wall AC Power Cable features three 10 AWG stranded 99.9999 percent pure oxygen-free copper (OFC) conductors. The wire is cryogenically treated to relieve stresses that can be imparted to the wire during manufacturing and to re-align the microstructure in the copper for improved conductivity. The conductors are foil-shielded to provide rejection from external electrical noise. The dielectric (insulation) is made from XLPE cross-linked polyethylene insulation with a PVC sleeve for unmatched durability.
Also as far as where to place your speakers, equipment, listening position...I think I would have your dedicated AC lines/outlets placed close to a corner so you would have the option of placing your equipment and more importantly your speakers on the long or short wall (which ever placement sounds best) in the room. To HAVE to place the speakers on 1 specific wall would be limiting. Having the option to choose where to place your speakers based on sound quality in that specific room would be invaluable.
|
@viber6
Here you go again, giving advice and opinions that you have no personal experience with. You said:
"Listen to the music from the right channel, especially from older recordings with ping pong imaging, that is, exaggerated L/R separation. You will still find that the AQ has more detail than the Odin."
How would you know that? Have you performed this exact experiment? The OP said he didn't have (2) 20a Odin1 power cords to use for the amps so he couldn't actually compare the Nordost to the Audioquest cables on his amps. You said:
"This illustrates that the $48K Odin pair is way overpriced with inferior performance compared to the AQ Dragon HC pair at $18K."
Inferior performance? Based on what? Again the OP was not able to A/B 20a Audioquest cables with Nordost cables on his amps because he didn't have any 20a Nordost cables.
You were doing so well over the last couple of weeks....Maybe it's time to take another little break.
|
@ WCSS
I’m with you on the in-wall speakers for your HT, I use 2 for surrounds in mine. However using an in-wall for a center channel might not be the best for clear, articulate dialogue. I think using in-walls for your rears, surrounds and all of the height speakers would be great, but I think I would keep the Neo’s in the mix with a passthrough in your preamp to a processor/receiver and get a ML center channel to match the sound of the Neo’s. Place 2 subs in the back of the room and run your Neo’s full range. That way you get full range sound all around you and the 3 most important speakers (center and front L&R) your best speakers, are handling most of the critical information....I’m definitely not a HT guy so maybe someone with more HT knowledge can clean-up or expand on my thoughts.
|
OMG.....he will never get it! |
Hey.....while we're spending your money, how about room treatments? There's Synergistic Research, ASC, GIK Acoustics, Vicoustic, Auralex, Stillpoints Aperture etc....Man you could do shootouts for months.
|
I'll help with the shipping costs if viber sends his amp to you. |
Actually he said "Yes, I almost bought the AHB2 after a 60 day trial. It didn't quite beat my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2 amp for clarity/neutrality, but it was close,"
So the order of best amps would be:
1 Bryston 2.5B SST2
2 Benchmark AHB2
3 Mephisto
4 Everything else
|
But just keep in mind.... You can try thinner carpets and less floor covering to liven it up. |
Uhhhh....I was being sarcastic. |
Speaking of isolation ie. (stands, racks and footers), I use two brands of isolation. I use Critical Mass (shelf and Center Stage footers) and also Stillpoints (Ultra 6’s). In my time experimenting with both I have learned they each bring a different tone to the system. The Critical Mass devices are warmer and more holographic vs the Stillpoints Ultra 6’s being more sterile sounding...cooler. Both produce amazing results. Both bring out details and information you never knew was there, they just do it differently.... tonally speaking. I will in the future add more CM isolation and subtract the Stillpoints. I think with my Simaudio 870a amp, YG Carmel2 speakers and all Odin1 cables the Critical Mass pieces help balance out the tonality of my system.
It all comes down to system matching and tuning. The last video with the DAG gear was (on my crappy computer speakers) the best sound I have heard since the OP started his YouTube channel. It sounded so much better this last time than the first time he played the DAG gear. I’m guessing it was the combination of the ’sweet’ DAG preamp and amp tuned or offset by Nordost Odin1 cables and the Artesania amp stand.....I’m wondering if you might get similar results with an AR ref10 / Simaudio 860a v2 / Cardas Clear Beyond or Kubala Sosna Emotion cables? I understand the cost differences between the two systems...I’m thinking more of tuning a system to a more neutral presentation.
|
Knowing Jay for many years, no way he would take advantage of a return policy to review a speaker then send it back for a refund...not that kinda guy.
|
What I'm saying is I don't think Jay would ever buy a speaker for the purpose of reviewing it knowing he was going to send it back for a full refund less shipping.....Sounds a little unethical to me.
|
@techno
Maybe it's time to take another break. |
Wow...with audio descriptive words like jangly and feathery, not so sure what to think anymore.
|
No need to answer for viber...I'm sure we'll get a detailed response.
BTW Jay, do you plan on rating the Gryphon and D'Agostino amps while you still have them? Curious how you rate them compared to the more affordable Sim and Lux amps using your new and improved rating system.
|
I don't think viber wants to influence your thoughts....
|
Uhhh....I was being sarcastic |
Yeah I'm with kren on this one. I thought the mic recording (1st one) sounded richer, warmer and more detailed....also the stereo aspect sounded better. The phone recording sounded more defused. Work on the mic gain level and I think it's a winner. |
I wonder if there is a break-in period on the mic....ha |
