My Audio Research experience

davidpritchard
+1

Please stop with  the Carver propaganda or at least wait until my Phase Linear 700 amp quits smoldering - I am out of marsh mellows to toast.
Feel free to start a new thread about your company !
David Pritchard

KNGHiFi,
Had you or your brother spoken with Bob directly at that time, he would've been delighted to send out free tubes. Unfortunately, with the Emotiva situation being stillborn, Bob had little to say about anything. The company never came together.

Given the circumstances, I would be delighted to provide your brother with free tubes. I'm sorry he had to go through this. Have him contact me.

Incidentally, we will be introducing an upgraded version of his amplifier in about 60 days with more power. Despite it being 25% of the price of its bigger brother, we will extend the same warranty-- 10 years amp and tubes.

I think both dealer and location (i.e. closer proximity to the manufacturer) can be determining factors.  I live in Canada and with my first ARC preamp I had one of those glitchy "ghost-like" issues that would only happen once in a while.  Both the dealer, Audio Ark of Edmonton, and ARC were very supportive.  Eventually the dealer took the preamp back for full value (after two years) and ARC gave me the upgraded model for a discount. 

Now let's talk replacement tubes.  Buyers also need to be weary of some non-OEM tube suppliiers who supposedly do tube testing and matching or say that their NOS tubes came from a "good" source.  Yeah sure.  ARC is not the only component in my rack.  I have Octave MRE 220 mono's for amps.  I can tell you that manufactures design their components around a particular tube that they determine to be the best match and are reliable and can be supplied from source by the tube manufacturer.  In my experience tube rolling has never rendered a better result than original when one is dealing with a main stream high-end manufacturer whose design platform is based on tubes. 

I would not recommend getting replacement tubes from any source other than the original manufacturer for such equipment.  Sure if you have kit pre's and amp's or products from manufacturers that are intented for those who love to t-swap.

I just got replacment tubes from ARC for my Ref 10 and, yes, you pay a premium but all are perfectly matched (to the board) and marked for insertion.  Also when one of the tubes started to hum after a month, it was replaced immediately - no cost, no hassle.  That may not always be the case with non-OEM's.  Also, when you get tubes from ARC - are they ever packed well.  I got some tubes last year from a well known tube store that were thrown in a box with a bit of bubble wrap.  After three months I went back to the original tubes.

kalali, You realize you just did (i.e. make a hostile post to this thread) what you are criticizing others for doing?

I’ll go first. There is nothing particularly up with me, I was just advocating for letting manufacturers and dealers have a say as long as they disclose their affiliation with any equipment being discussed. I am listening to my not so uber system right now (Metheny/Mehldau Quartet, I highly recommend it). I don’t compare power cords.

Now your turn, please answer your own questions.

This is turning into another "Synergistic Red Fuse" thread. What’s up with you people? The guy who started this thread has moved on to better things, like listening to music, and everyone else is taking each other apart. Shouldn’t you guys be listening to your uber sound systems or comparing power cords to see/hear which one has better bass, just about now? Happy Easter.

"Carver was in middle of Emotiva so no luck getting power tube replacements under warranty "

Yes the Emotiva partnership was another of Bob Carver's ventures and how long did that one last less than a few months? Don't worry though we've be told that Carver stuff is now warranteed for 10 years and even then it never breaks down because of the outstanding engineering and quality control he has. I'm sure fmalitz who said he is done with me will respond again soon to deny deny deny all of this once more.

It’s no longer unusual for a high-end company to be sold. As fmalitz has pointed out, many big names have been sold multiple times.

tomcy6, You are making clearthink point. Life time warranty is only as good as company in business.

My brother got caught in one Carver’s reincarnations. He understands business and nature of tubes so did whine and whine and just bought replacement tubes.

So please lighten up. With 14 posts to your name, it might be a good idea, to lurk for a while until you get a feel for what is helpful and what isn’t.

Curious, how do you formulate length of lurking by post count?  Did you steal one of Almarg's slide rulers?

tomcy6, please speak for yourself.  Other than Ralph and a few others who I really enjoy reading their posts, dealers (especially) & manufacturers tend to start emphasizing advertising over informative content.  This is not to say fmalitz was one of these, or that clearthink was right to get so hot under the collar as to sound like he had an agenda.   To be honest, when the back and forth get so voluminous I quit reading it.  Volume does not in and of itself create interesting content.

clearthink, Lighten up! What do you have against Carver? Have you had problems with a Carver company in the past? Please disclose the reason for your hostility toward Carver.

It’s no longer unusual for a high-end company to be sold. As fmalitz has pointed out, many big names have been sold multiple times.

I have not been offended by anything fmalitz has written here. He disclosed his stake in Carver and we can take whatever he says with that in mind.

I wish more manufacturers and dealers would post here.  They tend to know something about audio and can add valuable perspective to our discussions. Unfortunately, any who do are usually attacked by someone like you, so they don’t bother and we lose the benefit of their knowledge.

So please lighten up. With 14 posts to your name, it might be a good idea, to lurk for a while until you get a feel for what is helpful and what isn’t.

clearthink +1

I can't imagine a company owner promoting his products in an open forum by trashing another company.  Wow!   Who's next?

Current Carver products are very good.  My brother bought a 'Black Magic' VTA 20S Tube Amplifier for his Avantgarde.  ~100 hours 2 power tubes arc and took out fuses.   Carver was in middle of Emotiva so no luck getting power tube replacements under warranty but overall he's happy with the amp.

fmalitz, you're doing disservice to Carver with your actions.  

I promised myself I would not reply to clearthink as there's no point in it. Still, he is preading false stories. I objected that. To set the record straight:

Marantz is not around. It's only Marantz in name only. There is no Marantz factory. Since what you call "the early dawn", the name Marantz has been owned by seven different companies. SEVEN!

Next, as I said before, in 40 years of manufacturing, Bob was tied up with only two companies for nearly 30 of those years. 

"Incidentally, and not to be nasty, I nonetheless got a chuckle at the mention of Marantz who nearly went out of business and was just purchased by Sound United, the company who owns and sells Polk and Definitive Technology, two speaker brands unlikely to ever be driven by Audio Research or any current Carver product. One assumes they will cover the warranty currently in existence, but D&M Holdings was a gnat's eyelash away from being taken over by the bank.

I would also like to make something clear: if I could afford it, Audio Research components would be on my short list (with a handful of other brands). Because of my background and my connections, I can deal with reliability issues more easily than the average consumer. For those of us living in the real world however, there are inexpensive amplifiers from China that sound decent "

That's a great way to promote a product some people think that by insulting they're competition they elevate their own Music Reproduction System components to a level that it will appeal to more audiophiles and music lovers. Of course to those who have the knowledge and experience to actually objectively evaluate Music Reproduction Systems it is painfully obvious that the insult is simply a very thinly disguised attempt to distract the consumer from the real facts which is that the item actually being promoted doesn't "measure up" to the Music Reproduction System components that are being insulted. This poster would be well adviced to consult with an experienced expert in advertising and marketing to promote his products because this effort based on insulting high quality components and the financial stability of competitors is an obvious attempt to distract from what the real truth is and most oddly Bob Carver in particular has owned and sold one company after another after another after another which of course he doesn't want us to think about where as Marantz has been around since the very early dawn of the high fidelity movement!

Anthony,
I will do all I can to stand behind the product. My concern is the shipping costs from Australia. How would it be if I asked Bob what the amp needs to get back to normal operation? While I'm not familiar with tube-type Bob Carver amplifiers made before my arrival a couple of years ago, If they're anything like our current products, that blown fuse will minimize the damage, making it inexpensive and easy to repair.

My intention is to repair it at no cost to you, irrespective of its age, and irrespective of the damage, but shipping a heavy amplifier from the southern to the northern hemisphere might the unnecessary and risky overkill. I'll speak to Bob and Jordon as I promised I would, in an earlier post. I will reply through your email address assuming it is still current. We will provide either shipping instructions or directions for your local technician to affect an immediate and convenient repair. 

Unlike the Sunfire products which were utterly and totally unique, with our current philosophy of point-to-point wiring of readily available capacitors and resistors, any technician with any talent at all will be able to repair these, certainly, for years to come. There are no proprietary components. There are no integrated circuits. While it's true that some of our capacitors are special order, that's because of the quantities we buy and and your technician will be able to source the equivalent. 

I don't expect a phone call, Anthony, but if you wish to communicate with me directly, use [email protected]. All forum members are invited to contact me likewise if they need to. In the meantime, sit tight and I hope to respond to you in the next couple of days. Please understand that I was already booked up for the remainder of the week and did not expect to see your post. My policy is to respond within 24 hours to as many inquiries as I possibly can, but in this case, I do need to speak to Bob who is, at all times, working on inventions unimaginable.. In fact, the only reason we're going through this, is Bob worked on the Amazing Line Source for seven years and if he retired, he realized, no one would ever get to hear this product. In his words, "I was going to ride off into the sunset with Peggy but could not get myself to abandon the Amazing Line Source project." So, whatever Bob is doing, and wherever he happens to be, I have to grab his attention, shake him a bit, ask my questions, and report back to you

You guys might find this interesting: we actually underrate tube fuses so that they will easily blow if the tube has a slight defect. Today's tubes may have microscopic impurities. A high-quality new-old-stock tube will typically be free of such impurities and have an even longer lifespan--actually indefinite when used in one of our current amplifiers. If the impurity lands on the wrong internal component, in a thoughtless design which does not use tube fuses, the tube will fail taking out components downstream. To refuse to use circuit boards at this price, and taking steps to ensuring reasonable protection for the components in the amplifier, any manufacturer able to duplicate our DC restorer circuit, would enjoy incredibly long component life. 

I continue: When a tube fuse blows in one of our amplifiers, the impurity is vaporized and when the fuse is replaced with the proper value, you're set to go. I've seen this happen once so far in my two years and the amplifier miraculously seemed to heal itself as Jordon predicted. Of course, the amplifier did not heal itself, but rather, the vaporization of the impurity allowed the tube to return to normal function. The key is robust construction, using some fairly expensive components, and careful fusing where applicable. We WANT the fuse to blow (BTW, few ever do). 

We actually state this in the owners manual: We tell people not to worry if the tube fuse blows because, unlike other designs, it's often no big deal. If the fuse blows in one of the original Sunfire woofer amplifiers, for example, it's a catastrophic failure. Fortunately we are familiar with the subwoofer amp problem and are comfortable with repairing and upgrading such units. In the case of our power amplifiers that we market today, a blown fuse may not signal any problem at all.

Next, by using point-to-point wiring, we do not incur the variable series resistance inherent in the traces on circuit boards. Of course it's incumbent upon us to use high-quality internal cabling, so we do. You see, the formulae for determining, for example, the gain of any particular stage, involves factors such as resistance. Well, nearly everything has some sort of resistance. If we can control it, we come closer to the theoretical ideal as specified in the formulae used in amplifier designing.

As an aside, lest you think this is so much hyperbole, Bob has been collecting theater and industrial amplifiers since he was a teenager. Many had the original tubes. After some fresh capacitors, some of these units are still operating perfectly with tubes that are nearly as old as Bob. Ever the curious scientist, Bob began to wonder why some of these tubes never seem to wear out. He ascribed that to two things: the tubes were better in those days, and the collateral circuitry and bias scheme were not as destructive as we find today. That said however, many of these units did not sound very good. Bob's challenge was to elicit natural sound, at all frequencies, at all levels, and still extend tube life. Our proprietary DC restorer circuit turned out to be the answer. This is exactly why we decided to extend the warranty beyond the usual 2 to 5 years so common in our industry. 

Incidentally, and not to be nasty, I nonetheless got a chuckle at the mention of Marantz who nearly went out of business and was just purchased by Sound United, the company who owns and sells Polk and Definitive Technology, two speaker brands unlikely to ever be driven by Audio Research or any current Carver product. One assumes they will cover the warranty currently in existence, but D&M Holdings was a gnat's eyelash away from being taken over by the bank.

Finally, and this may or may not apply to Audio Research, the amplifier's internals should be, in some fashion, electromagnetically laid out. Circuit boards can be confining, forcing the designer to compromise. At Onkyo for example, the girls who assembled the electronics followed a manual showing how many twists per inch they were to manually create when doing wire-dress. Companies like Yamaha and Arcam use conductive wire ties that bleed unwanted extemporaneous energy to ground. All this stuff adds up but sticking with circuit boards engenders certain compromises.

We will probably use a circuit board in our $2500 amplifier for economic reasons. That said, we really do prefer point-to-point wiring but would rather build an affordable unit with some innocuous compromises as opposed to offering no unit at all in that price range.

By the way, and I assume we are not alone in this process, first the amplifier is designed as a concept by Bob. Next a block diagram is created. At that point, a prototypical schematic diagram is created by Jordon, submitted to Bob for comments and then finally, a true prototype is hand assembled by Jordon. At that point, Bob, who pretty much has the final say-so, will listen to the amplifier and I guarantee you, he will suggest immediate subtle changes, not to the sound, but to the circuitry that produces the sound. He realizes, unequivocally more than most, exactly what changes result in benefits and which can be destructive. I've seen him do it on motel room beds – – snipping out resistors and caps and replacing them with parts from RadioShack and immediately opening up the top end frequencies as he predicted it would. This is how he tuned the solid-state Carver amplifier to match the sound of the Conrad Johnson under test for the guys at Stereophile. Not being amplifier designers, they thought that the production model based on this design, was not the same as what was submitted for the test, not realizing that the changes cost under a dollar!

I would also like to make something clear: if I could afford it, Audio Research components would be on my short list (with a handful of other brands). Because of my background and my connections, I can deal with reliability issues more easily than the average consumer. Just as with the Arcam surround-sound receivers, which I represented for many years, one has to accept the fact that Ferraris need more attention than Chevrolets. So, if I were wealthy, I would certainly consider the top-of-the-line Audio Research components because I feel they are incredibly natural sounding and very transparent.

For those of us living in the real world however, there are inexpensive amplifiers from China that sound decent and have been pretty reliable lately. It's a good way to get familiar with the world of tubes. I guess we fall somewhere in the middle. Our current "entry-level" amplifier is 350 W RMS at $9500 a pair...not a bad deal. Jordan and Bob have been working on the new 35 W per channel tube-type amplifier, complete with our DC restorer circuit which extends tube life, component life, and reduces distortion dramatically, at around $2500 as I said above. That will give us three models since the top-of-the-line silver sevens are now $32,000 a pair (actually, not a pair, four components – – two power supplies and two amplifiers).

@thazeldean , I'm sorry that my reply "miffed" you a bit.

Yes, it was sarcastic, because I found your whole "car analogy" to be totally useless and inane. I tend to look for humor when reacting to foolishness.
I'm sure that I am not alone, as there are many other rational folks here on these forums.

I apologize if it got your panties twisted in a bunch.

Jetter - Having owned some ST70's I agree they are simple and reliable. Sonically, however, I can assure you they are not ARC. There is no comparison.

I started a thread about ARC and it ended up in a discussion about Carver amps.  I would like to add some information about both, for the record.

Firstly I was contacted by Synergy Audio in Australia about the Reference 75.  They informed me that the issue with the main board was from corrosion. I live in Mackay, which is tropical and I am only a mile from the ocean at best, so subject to South Easterly trade winds bringing salt water inland.  It is also a coal port and before you all get on the environmental bandwagon, you can't have cars without coal, it is made from iron ore and coking coal.  Just wanted to add that because the Greenies in Australia want to close all the mines because of climate change but all drive to the protests - hypocrites.  Anyway Synergy have informed me that the board was damaged from natural causes and that the new board is designed with better protection and won't suffer the same fate.  They have also been in contact with ARC who have offered to replace the tubes under warranty even though this is well outside the terms of the warranty.  This is very much appreciated by myself and has changed my opinion of ARC as I think they have been embarrassed by the situation.  Thank you for this extremely generous offer.  Happy days.

From the comments about the Carver amps.  I also own a pair of Black Beauties serial Numbers 00009 and 00010.  I purchased these in 2011 as per information below:

Thank you for your order!

Order Information

Merchant:

Bob Carver LLC

Billing Information
Anthony Hazeldean
1 Matterson Ave
Eimeo, Queensland 4740
Australia
[email protected]

Transaction ID:

4077306865

I purchased them when I saw an advert In TAS.  I believe they were the first pair in Australia before Bob even had an Australian Distributor.  They are wonderful sounding amps and are extremely dynamic through the Martin Logan CLX's.  I really, really like the sound of these amps.

I note that they were awarded Product of the Year by TAS but this was discontinued, I believe when Bob Carver was taken over by Emotiva (I think that is what they were called)

When the KT150 tubes were released I emailed Bob about installing them in the Black Beauties and this is his reply. 

Hi Tony,

 

Yes, you can replace the KT120s with KT150s. The amplifier might not get as much power as our new 350 watt amplifiers because your Black Beauties don’t have the latest updates, new transformers, and increased energy storage, but unless you really push them hard, you won’t have problems.

 

Thanks!

Ulises Hubbard

Chief Operating Officer

 

I installed the KT 150's and after several months of operation started having problems with one monoblock blowing a tube and the fuse.  I intended to send these to a repair agent in Melbourne but as I now find they are still under warranty I would like to return them for repair.  Can you please supply the warranty address fmalitz?  I would very much like to get these beasts up and running again.

I love happy endings and thanks for all those that provided support.

This thread truly amuses me. When one gets into high end audio and starts to delve in the esoterica of tubes...and tube amps in particular, then I do believe that some of the ’issues’ with said tubes are to be expected. My ARC amp is over 30+ years old. I have had to have it serviced and have also had to replace all of the tubes. Surely, one would expect this?? OTOH, for anyone to state that a certain design can last for one hundred years is really pushing the envelope, IMO. Anything can last for a hundred years, so long as every single part is replaced or remanufactured over and over to insure that. Reminds me of the old Ford from 1918, still running like a top....why, because every darn part in it has been replaced or restored, LOL. Same with our tube amps, or any piece of gear for that matter!
ARC is in business to succeed and make a profit, no one forces anyone to buy their products...The fact that they are able to service my amp and keep it in my system after all these years gives me a good feeling. Yes, the service might be pricey, but at least the option is there!! Unlike the old Hales speakers that i used to own.
As to Carver, I think their philosophy speaks volumes for them. Whether you like their sound or not is another question, but their philosophy seems to be on the right track. Bob Carver may have made some missteps in the past, but who in business did not!! The fact that Frank Malitz professes what he does, say a lot for their company...all IMHO.

There is a little irony in all of this.  You are talking about fairly expensive tube amps and their longevity.  There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of Dynaco ST70s out there that are 50 or 60 years old that have had nothing or only a couple of components replaced and are still  going strong.  

At one ARC in-store seminar I attended in the 1980’s, Bill Johnson stated that he designed and built his electronics to have a twenty year lifespan. At my then age, twenty years seemed to me like a long time, twenty years being a good chunk of it. At my current age, twenty years doesn’t seem so long! Sorry to keep bringing up Roger Modjeski, but he states he designs and builds his Music Reference amps to last one hundred years. In consideration of a technician in the far-off distant future needing to know the bias settings (and other values) in one of his amps, he silk-screens that info onto their top plate. My ARC LS-1 pre-amp is a lot older than twenty years, but then tube pre’s require a lot less in the way of maintenance than do tube power amps, especially a single-tube design like the LS-1. The SP-10 is a different story!

This will be my last post on this topic. As I stated above, clearthink will never admit to any positive aspects of Bob's career in terms of standing behind a product. This validates, as I stated clearly above, his own incorrect opinion. Anyone with specific questions or if you'd like to compare the components used in our product versus another brand, feel free to call me and I'll tell you the truth.

Clearthink, once again, is either misinformed or he is a liar. Both Carver and Sunfire lasted about 15 years each under Bob's ownership. Although Audio Research is to be commended for their longevity, not to mention their excellent sonic performance, 15 years is an above average lifespan for many audio companies under the same ownership. 

Aside from these facts, and aside from the people who benefited from Bob's designs, Audio research warrants their tubes for 90 days. Assuming we will not close our business in the next few years or so, probably a likely event according to clearthink, you're still ahead of the game. With a conventional tube-type amplifier, immediately after breaking in, the unit will sound its best but begin to degrade day by day. I don't know what else I can say. I'm not likely to respond further unless a posting is truthful or inquisitive. I certainly will not respond further to clearthink. He's merely William Summerwerck in sheep's clothing.

Yes Mr. Carver has been an innovative designer of equipment used in Music Reproduction Systems and he has founded and sold one company after another while making millions of dollars in the process which is the free market at work and while the free market is certainly with it's fault's as all would agree it also is the best system we have and Mr. Carver has demonstrated how it is possible to profit from it. There is nothing wrong with that and no need to apologize I do not think Mr. Carver has broken any laws. But as you have stated because his products are protected under various duly issued world patents the equipment he has produced is really not generally serviceable because competent technicians can not figure out how the products work especially when they are already broken! Thank you also for not arguing the facts that Mr. Carver has never founded a company that lasted as long as the warrantee of 10 years that he is "promising" for these new equipment so that is the point here it is so funny! he could give it a lifetime warrantee and it would not matter because the company will not be in existance or perhaps he will sell it to others and the warrantee will be worthless. That you put your phone number in your post doesn't mean anything at all and if you think I have attacked your integrity as you claim you may alert the moderator's to this post and it will be their decision whether to allow these statements or not again a warrantee is only as good as the company that backs it. As for Audio research which you again mention they have been in business continuously for more than 40 years and they still honor their warantees and their equipment is very serviceable as all who know about them agree yourself included!

Dear clearthink,
While you think it's "so funny", I take it as being pretty close to a personal attack on my integrity. Perhaps our forum members should ignore everything I wrote. From my perspective, you are misinformed. More on this in a moment.

Let's look at the facts:
1) Bob started Phase Linear right out of college. It brought high-powered amplifiers to the masses and positively murdered the competing Bose and Macintosh Super-amps, not only in terms of power, but also sonically. The Phase amps had a very high failure rate comparable to the Arcam receivers of today. Still, 75% of the people who buy Arcam receivers or who bought Phase Linear power amplifiers, managed to get years of fine performance without a problem. With the initial units failing, Bob improved the design on a consistent basis, resulting in a very low failure rate ultimately. By that point, the company's books showed a very strong trend and Bob, in his very early 20s, was offered $1 million for the company. He took it. So would you if given the opportunity at that age. Should Bob be held responsible for the new Phase Linear management's decisions? Is Roy Allison to blame for what happened to AR, Allison, or RDL (all gone)? Is Henry Kloss responsible for what happened ultimately to AR, KLH, Advent, and Kloss (all gone; AR and KLH exist in name only)? Were it not for these fine pioneers and others with a similar background, you wouldn't be a reading this post right now. Due to the enormous expansion of the electronics industry, changing musical chairs seems to be quite common.

2) Bob took the money and started Carver. Once again, he brought high-performance concepts to a young budget-minded industry and the products were so highly regarded that even today, dozens of people converge on the Smoky Mountains every year for Carver Fest. Bob didn't even know about it! Imagine every cottage in the area being filled with Phase Linear, Carver, and Sunfire products – – each system freighted in for two weeks of listening and discussions--by consumers! I can think of no other consumer product that has this type of loyalty--not Porsche, Harley Davidson nor Ducati, all of whom have "fests". Remember, were talking two weeks of every year! When Bob found out, he was moved to tears. I'm not exaggerating; he's an emotional person and very affectionate.

So Bob brought speaker kits so everyone could assemble a pair of Cinema Ribbon speakers. The following year everybody got to build a 20 W per channel Carver-designed tube -type amplifier. But, I digress. The Carver brand was so successful, that the company began to deviate from Bob's original vision. There was a Board of Directors who voted down many of Bob's ideas, inventions, and suggestions. Eventually, amid acrimonious board meetings, Bob was fired! He did not leave willingly. Shall we excoriate Bob for the actions of the remaining management?

How about this: years later, when Sunfire was enjoying great success, Bob told me he was going to buy the Carver name back, reintroduce the brand and cover all warranties. I could not understand why he would do this since he was only buying the brand name; he had no warranty obligations to any Carver consumer legally. He turned to me and said, "Frank, with my name on the product, I will not abandon these consumers". Bob paid for the repairs out of his own pocket.Compare this to some of the ARC posts above.

3) The Sunfire story was a bit different and yet similar. In a repeat of what happened with Phase Linear, he was offered a substantial amount of money for the company but by then the company had been in business for many years and Bob was thinking about retirement. So, yes, he did sell the company to Core Brands who changed the direction of the company downmarket. Bob chose not to remain on board although he was invited to. The upshot of this last venture is similar to the Carver situation in that the Sunfire products are still out there doing things no other product has ever done, all these years later, and we even provide continuing service through an outside contractor wherein we make no money but arrange for a repair with no estimate charge, a full warranty for one year, and upgraded components ensuring future reliability. Regular technicians cannot repair many of the Bob Carver-designed products because no one has been able to backward engineer them despite the patents expiring. We are able to turn to Bob for the most difficult and arcane repair issues despite this endeavor having no commercial connection to our current company.

4) So you feel our warranty is suspect... If failures are not an issue, and this forum is open to anyone's eyes in case my claims are fraudulent, why would we go bankrupt? Bob wants a lifetime warranty on our new products. I fought against it due to the fact that cynics like clearthink laughed in my face asking how old we are. So, I made it 10 years and I put it in writing. It's still our intention to charge nothing for service or tubes as long as the company remains solvent. Would we sell the company? Well, yes, but remember that Jordon has right of first refusal and frankly, owning the Bob Carver Company represents his future. He's half our age.

The current series of power amplifiers albeit with higher power now, have been in production for five years with the stellar reliability record I referred to above. Our amazing Line Source Loudspeaker, which easily took Best Sound at the recent New York hi-fi show, and garnered a review from Absolute Sound implying it's one of the greatest speakers of all time, has had zero failures since there are 40 drivers per tower absorbing energy. Were not even sure what the power handling capacity is other than the fact that it's in excess of 1000 W RMS and yet the review was done with a 20 W per channel tube -type amplifier which we'll be reintroducing with more power in about 60 days. So, to the uninformed, it would appear risky to offer a 10 year warranty including tubes but not when you have no failures. Make sense?

So, dear forum members, based on these two posts--one negative (and slanted) and one rebuttal, feel free to make your own choice. From my perspective, clearthink is the equivalent of fake news. He emphasizes a single negative aspect while ignoring the positives. Yes, this is like politics; people like clearthink will never change their opinion and, in fact resort to personal attacks, twisting the truth to validate their opinions.

I'm a 50 year veteran of the industry. My reputation is my stock in trade. My social circle includes a huge percentage of people from this industry. I'm the founder of Onkyo, and Integra in the United States. I participated in the launch of Sonus Faber, Focal through JM Lab, named the Pro-Ject turntable, helped launch the REL line of subwoofers, and too many more to mention. I've represented most of the brands you are likely to see on this forum from Apogee to whatever starts with  Z. I have always been available to help people in our hobby. It's my hobby too. You may note that I published my phone number. I get calls seven days a week on equipment selection, system setup, acoustics and so forth. Most of this has nothing to do with my business. I just like it. I love the industry, I love the products that emphasize individuality, and I love music like the rest of you. If I've derailed the thread, or if I've come across as nothing more than a salesman with no integrity, I most sincerely apologize.

Finally, and this is the funny part, clearthink warns us using his command of Latin to beware of my product. This warning was issued after countless negative ARC posts in this very thread! Clearthink's position is that Audio Research is to be trusted while we are not. I do indeed find THIS rather funny. In fact, our current superb dealer network and endorsements from industry luminaries and other manufacturers makes clearthink's position look rather foolish. That said, I'm glad that he posted because there are people out there who are prejudiced against Bob Carver and I always feel the need to clear the air of false assumptions. I also appreciate the fact that he did allow that Bob is a talented designer. If he were not a caring and professional partner, I would not be involved.

"That said, our ampifiers have a minimum of a ten year warranty INCLUDING TUBES. Minimum? Well, as long as Bob and I live, no one will ever pay for a repair. "

That is so funny! With all due respect to Bob Carver who as all know is an innovative engineer and master marketer who has done much to promote high fidelity music systems using a variety of specially developed technologies this warantee is highly suspect. That is because none of the many companies which he founded and each of which promised many lofty claims for high performance could manage to stay in business for even close to 10 years at least under the same ownership! Phase Linear aka Flame Linear, Carver Corp, Sunfire, Carver LLC have all come and gone which proves a warrantee can be no better than the company that stands behind it! Caveat Emptor!

I've been watching this thread with considerable head-shaking. I too, loved the performance of my ARC gear but like a Lotus, it required regular service and fresh tubes. Frankly, it's no longer necessary to buy unreliable cars to enjoy extremely high performance. Ditto for HiFi; it's not 1965 any longer.

In the interest of integrity, I must disclose the fact that I am the co-owner and CEO of the Bob Carver Company. To avoid a commercialized announcement, I will simply state some facts and make no claims regarding sound. Furthermore, there are fine solid-state brands that are quite reliable. Bel Canto and Halo come to mind but there are many others.

We choose to stick with tubes due to the potential for great midrange transparency and sound staging. Audio Research excels in those attributes. I love their products and their contribution to our culture cannot be over estimated. Given my involvement in a competitor, I cannot, and will not, discuss their reliability issues as I have no data other than hearsay. 

That said, our ampifiers have a minimum of a ten year warranty INCLUDING TUBES. Minimum? Well, as long as Bob and I live, no one will ever pay for a repair. No receipt necessary. Transferable warranty forever.  Additionally, our buy-sell agreement is with Jordon Gerber, our brilliant junior partner (and, like Bob, a degreed physicist) with a stipulation that he will continue the same policies.

To prove our mettle, we have an on-board tube checker at full voltage--get a bad reading, get free tubes. Want to roll your own? Biasing is easy, quick and fun. You don't even  need matched tubes! No printed circuit boards. No chips. Hand wired with conventional components, albeit custom caps, but you can surely find audiophile-grade replacements on the web. Gigantic power without heat; all components last longer.

The tubes do not get very hot and one can place one's hand on the top of the KT120s or 150s, all day and never get burned. By using proprietary circuitry, we control bias and distortions without depending on excess feedback. The result is a lowering of measurable distortions by a full magnitude and an indeterminate tube life--expect around 50 years. It's a Bob innovation. No sonic degradation.

As a result, we have no service department at all. There's only been a single failure during my tenure. Our failure rate is well under 1% LONG TERM. My goal when I ran Onkyo in the '70s, when they had the most reliable mid-fi line, was under 1% based on the warranty claims during the first 90 days. Our Carver failure rate is superior to solid-state! We've given out three tubes in five years.

How do they sound? I refuse to comment and refer to reviews and even other manufacturers who, in some cases, compete with us yet extoll our virtues. I don't know forum rules; if I'm allowed, I'll provide some incredible endorsements. In any case, ignore all commercial propaganda, even mine, and listen for yourself. My reason for posting is to bring you up to the 21st century; we are not the only tube-type vendor offering reliable product with actual fuses where they belong while not harming the sound. I find it astounding that a designer would claim fusing is destructive when they utilize PCs. 

Why not buy components that actually allow you to relax and listen to your music instead of suffering anxiety as your tubes degrade  hour after hour? Yes, people bought two Lotuses so one could enjoy sporting driving while the other was in the shop--in 1965. 

See you guys at Axpona Chicago in a couple of weeks. Feel free to call for more details. 

Frank Malitz
847-668-4519--any day.

jetter

Everyone knew what he meant without you pointing out that he phrased his sentence incorrectly.

That's fantastic that you know what everyone thinks!

Everyone knew what he meant without you pointing out that he phrased his sentence incorrectly.

ivanj

... As a rule most new electronics fail within 30 days (True for computers, etc.)

I think this is mistaken. It's probable that what you really meant is that of electronic equipment that does fail, it is most likely to happen in the first 30 days. That's something I wouldn't dispute.

Frankly I don't buy a piece of used valve gear even if it is "only used for 5 days" unless I can get it at a DEEP discount. As a rule most new electronics fail within 30 days (True for computers, etc.)
I don't know if ARC threw all their parts away but many/most ARC valve electronics can be fixed. The older designs used excellent output transformers, as a rule, so if you like their sound they maybe worth exploring. Until the 80s you couldn't buy a piece of solid state or valve electronics from many high end dealers until they burned it in in their lab for 30 days!
Not only ARC but other "fancy" "nouveau-riche" (tube) brands use dodgy designs using components like tubes run on the edge or past their design limits. HP was one to point this out in the 80s but by incidents of failure, not knowing the design reasons. 

If interested contact me.

I know after I reread it again.  

@jea48 

Thanks for all the posts guys but some information to clear up some misconceptions. Firstly the amp failed with the original tubes. I could not see a resistor blown when I opened the amp to see what had happened. I replaced the fuse in the amp and tried other tubes but the amp wouldn't power up so I couldn't have damaged it by trying new tubes. I was accused of pouring water into the amp by the Brisbane repair agent etc. etc. etc.

Compare this to my experience with Allnic. I have an Allnic L-3000 that was upgraded to L-4000 by the manufacturer. I bought the amp second hand from a guy in the US when the Aussie Dollar was higher. I left the batteries in the remote for too long and they leaked and wrecked the remote. By the way the preamp has worked faultlessly since I purchased it second hand in 2011 and it is the best sounding preamp I have had in my system.

"I bought the amp second hand from a guy in the US when the Aussie Dollar was higher. ..."  After OP mentioned amp is bought new, I reread and think he meant "preamp second hand ..." and not his REF75.

Certainly appears that knghifi invented that supposed quote of thazeldean saying he bought the amp used. 

Thazeldean, 
With all repairs for ARC in Australia, there is one authorised service tech in Australia that does the repair. Your dealer should have sent it back to Synergy at his or Synergy's expense. He seems to be the cause of this whole debacle by trying perform the repair on his own. It may be possible that the tech he employed to fix your amp may have caused the fluid spill and put the blame on you. The repair should have been an easy job consisting of a few resistors if the problem was actually failed tube. Moisture from condensation would not have been the cause of the issue unless the amp was sitting under an leaking aircon blower. The Ref 75 has horizontally a mounted main board and is not prone to condensation issues.

I bought the amp second hand from a guy in the US when the Aussie Dollar was higher.

thazeldean, I guess you meant preamp?

In my experience people don’t just start bashing a company for no reason.  To be clear, I am no fan of the op here.

Knghifi - where does it state that the amp is used? I can't find it in the thread.

This is slowly making sense. Tube arc and took out 2 to 3 $5 resistors. Technician opened the amp, found corrosion from spilled fluid and also wants to replace the board. It's an USED amp but OP never considered the possibility past ownerS spilled fluid in the amp.  
OP blames ARC ... blah! blah! ... ARC haters piling on drawing conclusions failed tube caused board failure ... over price, rip off, point to point wiring ... blah! blah! ...

bdp24
2,177 posts
04-01-2017 3:20am

I feel vindicated!

I bet this is a typical ARC bitching thread.

Don't have any experience with ARC power amps but have been using an ARC LS2 MKII B remote preamp for getting close to 30 years.  I audition stuff from time to time but it beats back all pretenders to the crown including recently an LS17-SE and an LS27. As long as I can keep Siemens and Halske 6922 Cca's in it it's a world beater,  but one day the it's time will come.

 According to my information, your unit is out of warranty and was damaged by corrosion caused most likely by a fluid being spilled onto the main board.

Since the unit is USED, is it possible previous ownerS spilled fluid in the amp?

AR did NOT say they would do the upgrade with your supplied tubes. To draw an analogy to automotive repair, reach your own conclusion that they should is YOUR problem, not theirs.

SE is ARC transition to KT150.  The SE upgrade includes a complete set of ARC tubes and I believe a fresh warranty.   Another words, you can't get the upgrade without the tubes. 

Also warranty is not transferable so don't understand why you believe it's a warranty repair since it's used? 

Your initial problem sounds like replacing 2 or 3 $5 resistors so don't understand how it escalated to replacing board.

OP doesn't understand how the amps works, company policies ... I suggests do some homework before your next purchase so you don't blame the company for your ignorance.

" ARC have been good since I have updated them on the situation but the Australian Distributor is trying to pass the blame back to them advising me that the person at ARC who replied to my original email no longer works there so there was unavoidable discontinuity by ARC. "

I am not siding with Synergy Audio but they weren’t not lying or making up an excuse as Kalvin Dahl, the customer service lead at ARC left in Oct of last year. He quit because he didn’t like their new system for logging customer issues.

http://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=38183

Having said that, there should be no excuse for Synergy keeping your amp since November for repair. It should have been turned around within a month or so.

Also there should be no issue using tubes not purchased from ARC, they should work fine as long as they have been tested and matched properly.

So just to be clear -  you now have a working amp (with the SE upgrade?) and the dealer has returned you the "non ARC" tubes you purchased?