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My analog journey - time for a new phono stage or?

With help from members of the forum, several years ago I upgraded the cartridge on my then primary turntable. A year later I purchased a Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ phono stage after demoing it at my house against a comparably priced Soundsmith unit. Last year I took the plunge and purchased from Upscale Audio a Rega P6 with a Sumiko Songbird low output MC cartridge. I purchased after demoing a Clearaudio Concept and the Rega locally, deciding Upscale was more knowledgeable than that dealer.

My virtual system can be viewed for all the details, but key components are the downstream Ayre Acoustics K-5xe preamplifier, Proceed HPA-2 amplifier and Aerial Acoustics Model 8b speakers. 

My issue is that I find that while the new turntable and cartridge definitely improved the detail/clarity of the sound reproduction, both the low and high ends seems to be missing complete extension and the soundstage is rather two dimensional, although instrument and vocalist placement and separation are very good and there is a seemingly clean background with no noticeable noise. I make these judgements compared to my digital front end, listening to the same albums/tracks on both. I don't necessarily expect to match the sonics of my digital gear, as I realize analog can be far more costly. FYI, I listen primarily to classical and jazz, some vintage rock, but typically acoustic music. My wife and I both play musical instruments and we attend live concerts, so we have a good handle on how instruments, bands, orchestras should sound and realize it is a fool's errand to seek to match the live performance.

I've read several threads on this forum and a number of review articles. A better phono stage may be an answer, emphasis on may. I experimented with loading and found the 121 or 150 ohm settings on my current phono stage work best. Below that and I lose high frequency detail. Above that and I end up with unacceptable sibilance on some recordings. FYI, the cartridge manufacturer calls for loading of >100 ohms, so my findings make sense. As a sidebar, I have come to realize how variable the quality of recordings and pressings are. The better TT and cartridge only emphasized this. 

So looking for more extension, deeper soundstage and a fuller, more natural sound lead me to a preliminary list of phono stages, with the goal of keeping within a budget of $2,500 or less. (I am agnostic as to solid state vs. tubes and will consider used gear from a good dealer or individual with happy customers.)

Pass XP-15

Whest Two.two or higher end model 

PS Audio Stellar Phono

Parasound JC Jr. or JC+

Allnic Audio H-1201

Aesthetix Rhea or Rhea Signature

Rogue Ares or Ares Magnum

Manley Labs Chinook - Upscale Audio's favorite around my budget

The list is long because there are thankfully many seemingly suitable options. I am open to others that would meet my goals and budget. I am hoping to hear from those of you who have auditioned or owned one or more of the above.

A few technical questions:

I have been sensitized to the need to match phono stage output to my pre-amplifier's input. One article I read suggested a rule of thumb that the input impedance of the pre-amp should be at least 10X the output impedance of the source. Is this accurate? FYI, my pre-amp has an input impedance of 20k Ohms on the unbalanced and 40k Ohms on the balanced inputs. So if the rule of thumb were correct, I need a phono stage with an output impedance of 1,000-2,000 Ohms or less.

The pre-amp, amp, my DAC and CD player are all balanced. While the Rega TT dos not have balanced outputs, I noticed that many of the phono stages have them. Is there a benefit to using the balanced outputs from the phono stage e.g. lower noise and greater gain?

Last question is whether my cartridge or cables from phono stage to pre-amp are a potential cause of the limitations I'm hearing. The cables are Transparent Music Link Plus 1.5m. I presume a more costly cartridge, particularly one with a line contact stylus could make a difference.

Where to invest the dollars??? Thanks for reading this long, detailed post.

 

 

sameyers1

Showing 4 responses by pindac

pindac's avatar
pindac
2,356 posts
 

I am struggling to identify a Phonostage as being the fundamental cause of the being able to notice a restriction to the Soundstage and Upper/Lower Frequencies.

The imagery is reported as a valuable trait, a Pencil Cabinet Speaker from a commercial design with a 20+year history will be all about the Imagery and Separation between the Speakers, a substantial Power Amp might get away with creating the impression of a expansion and leave the Speakers being perceived as expansive in their presentation.

A Bass Colour and Cabinet Reflection can easily subdue the upper frequencies, reigning these in and robbing the upper mid's and highs of being prominent as a projection.

I avoid overwhelming Bass for these, a clean tight fast decay Bass, is where I find a most desirable balance across all frequencies. If a little richness is desired hear after, there are simple ways to inject a little extra low end propping up. 

Speaker Designs have moved on, as Drivers have become available to work much better with a Pencil Cabinet design, and the Cabinet Design is much more aligned to controlling resonances and are efficient at cancelling the transfer of resonance.

I do think there is a issue with your Speakers, I would look to keep the Phon' for a longer period and learn morew about its inherent properties for developing the sent signal.

I would see if it is possible to slot your Phon' into other systems, friends, forum members, retailer, and see what is the impression being picked up on when in use.

There might be a surprise, the system owner might suggest your own Phon' is a valuable addition to their system. It won't be the first time this has happened.

A Friend has a selection of Cabinet Speakers, occasionally there is a different pair in use in their quite familiar system, it is quite unreal how a well respected Pencil Floor Stander can sound quite anaemic and shut in, in comparison to a Stand Mount Speaker, which bring a realness of the performance into the room. Both a CD Source and Vinyl Source are able to show differences on how they effect the Speaker in use.

This isn't HiFi in the regular sense either, this is more like mixing things up a little, as the Speakers and Sources are available. The real HiFi experience is to happen when the ESL Speakers are taking pride of place. 

pindac's avatar
pindac
2,356 posts
 

I am struggling to identify a Phonostage as being the fundamental cause of the being able to notice a restriction to the Soundstage and Upper/Lower Frequencies.

The imagery is reported as a valuable trait, a Pencil Cabinet Speaker from a commercial design with a 20+year history will be all about the Imagery and Separation between the Speakers, a substantial Power Amp might get away with creating the impression of a expansion and leave the Speakers being perceived as expansive in their presentation.

A Bass Colour and Cabinet Reflection can easily subdue the upper frequencies, reigning these in and robbing the upper mid's and highs of being prominent as a projection.

I avoid overwhelming Bass for these, a clean tight fast decay Bass, is where I find a most desirable balance across all frequencies. If a little richness is desired hear after, there are simple ways to inject a little extra low end propping up. 

Speaker Designs have moved on, as Drivers have become available to work much better with a Pencil Cabinet design, and the Cabinet Design is much more aligned to controlling resonances and are efficient at cancelling the transfer of resonance.

I do think there is a issue with your Speakers, I would look to keep the Phon' for a longer period and learn morew about its inherent properties for developing the sent signal.

I would see if it is possible to slot your Phon' into other systems, friends, forum members, retailer, and see what is the impression being picked up on when in use.

There might be a surprise, the system owner might suggest your own Phon' is a valuable addition to their system. It won't be the first time this has happened.

A Friend has a selection of Cabinet Speakers, occasionally there is a different pair in use in their quite familiar system, it is quite unreal how a well respected Pencil Floor Stander can sound quite anaemic and shut in, in comparison to a Stand Mount Speaker, which bring a realness of the performance into the room. Both a CD Source and Vinyl Source are able to show differences on how they effect the Speaker in use.

This isn't HiFi in the regular sense either, this is more like mixing things up a little, as the Speakers and Sources are available. The real HiFi experience is to happen when the ESL Speakers are taking pride of place. 

pindac's avatar
pindac
2,356 posts
 

The user interface on the forum can be improved, I do on occasion enter long posts and I am sure a few would prefer to avoid the post, no problem at my end, I am not directing posts at certain forum members.

A Block Member in a Thread, as a Option will be a wonderful tool.

pindac's avatar
pindac
2,356 posts
 

@goodnightpaul It might be good for you to start a Thread with an inquiry about alternative pre-amps, I don't see it out of place in the analog section, if the intention is to expand on the Vinyl Replay experience.

There is no harm in gathering information for a future experience, especially learning about Models that might appeal and can maybe be demonstrated.

 

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