MSB vs dCS Bartok

rfc OP
MSB vs dCS Bartok

This could be more like R2R Multibit vs Delta Sigma, as the RingDac in the DCS is said to be very much like delta sigma but for a couple of bits of R2R thrown in, much like the Hybrid "advance segment" chips Texas(BB) has out for a while now PCM179** series, as they are the differences you’ll be hearing, as both will have excellent output stages, jitter figures ect ect

BTW My money's on the MSB for the best PCM Redbook 16/44/24/96 or DXD reproduction, but if your doing DSD then you should A/B the two, as some of the Discrete R2R dacs are said to be converting DSD very good also. 

Cheers George

From experience with digital domain VC’s below 75 and the bit stripping starts lower the worse it gets. It sounds like less resolution and dynamic drive are what I hear effected, "almost" a compression.

Cheers George

Overall, the order is: via pre 100, pre 106, then direct 106 (hi).

Sound maybe like bit stripping to me, how much higher than 106 can your MSB go?
If this is the case leave the MSB where it sounds the best direct, and use a good passive preamp after it, then you'll get all the best sound of the direct hookup without introducing the coloration/distortions of an active preamp 

Cheers George

Sorry George, my experience has been different. And I actually own MSB

So do I, and get to see inside them and some of the circuits and what they consist of.

  It may simply be that the OP does not like how MSB sounds. Which is perfectly normal

You assume too much, he hasn't explored all the options yet as I've laid out, if you bother to talk to Jonathan Gullman (MSB) he will say the same. 

I am not a fanboy. We all like what we like. .

That's very obvious.

And... I know Jonathan, and Vince Galbo, very well.

As do I, so now then can you ask them, (just don’t tell them your not a fanboy.)
To the options I laid out for the OP to try first, then ask the main one.
"is the output stage of the Premier dac as good to drive a poweramps direct as a preamp such as the Naim."
Or maybe I should just get Jonathan to answer here.

We can agree to disagree.

No, because the OP has not yet tried all the options yet I laid out, to get all cons out of the equation.
Then if you saw, I did say to install the preamp back in as a last resort.

A DAC is not a preamp, regardless of what they say

Sorry but this need correcting and is a furphy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furphy ), the output stage on most dacs today (except tube ones) is every bit as good as a preamps output stage sometimes even better, as in the MSB case.

Cheers George

rfc OP
Hi George, yes it’s set up with the “high output”

Then try the "low output" also hope it has enough volume level for you.

As if with the "high output" if you have to turn back the volume level too much, then this could be "bit striping" the digital resolution and could be what your hearing, a loss of resolution .
Just as Wadia says with their dacs direct to amp, max output level setting with dac volume controls. https://ibb.co/vqgv7kJ

If then on the low setting you find you don’t have enough level to go loud enough even full up, then you’ll either have to put in your Naim pre, or better still you could leave it on the "high output" setting, volume up and set at just a little below full (100?), so your not "bit striping" and then use a passive volume control between dac and amp to adjust your volume

Going direct is never easy, but if you get it right, you’ll be rewarded with the most transparent, dynamic, uncolored sound .

Cheers George

rfc OP
But It’s not as dynamic compared to the Naim NDS /252 preamp I had before.

Somethings not right, this is what a HiFi-News review by Ken Kessler had to say about the Premier’s dynamics.

Ken Kessler
"The Byrds’ 12-string jingle-jangle, is disarmingly well-recorded, and the MSB Premier extracted everything it could from the lush harmonies.

While The Hollies and The Beach Boys vie for the title of ’best harmonizing in a rock group context, The Searchers were no slouches either. This cover of the sublime PF Sloan composition treats the listener to dynamic swings and passages of sublime delicacy countered by the anger of the message. The Premier moves with the music so skillfully, so suavely that I was driven to A/B it with the LP.

The Premier? So lusciously liquid and resonant I was hard-pressed to accept the total absence of glassiness."

This is from the lab test.  https://www.hifinews.com/content/msb-premierpowerbase-modular-dac-lab-report

" Tested via its balanced XLRs in variable ’Low Output’ mode, and with the volume set to ’100’, the Premier delivers a maximum 1.675V from a moderate 36ohm source impedance."

1.7v is very low, did you try the "High Output Mode" which is some 3.6v output?

Cheers George

I have made a choice and that is.........
MSB Premier, standard issue, no upgrades. It should be here and up and running in 4 weeks.

Cannot wait.

👍✔ You won’t listen to another non R2R Multibit dac again.

But then you’ve had a taste already with the Naim NDS it used the last best chip R2R dac from Burr Brown the PCM1704 as did the unobtainable Naim 555.
This MSB your getting is even far better than those again

Good choice, I’m jealous, I’ve just got the old msb discrete and it nailed my Linn CD12, also PCM1704 based.

BTW: defiantly make sure you get the volume control for the Premier dac, it will sound way better direct into your amp without the Naim pre in the way. then you can sell it

Hybrid Volume

The Premier DAC comes equipped a high-performance XLR or optimized RCA output module that’s fully shielded. This user-replaceable module provides a bufferless 150Ω output impedance suitable for driving any amplification. Proprietary advanced hybrid analog/digital volume technology allows for a clean and immersive listening experience you have to hear to fully believe.

Even the remote look better than mine https://www.msbtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/premier-review-768x402.jpg

Cheers George

Does MSB have that similar propulsive way with rock ?

Oh yeah, R2R has a great boogie factor and drive, makes you think it DR is far better than DS, even if the specs show the opposite.

Cheers George