Speaker wire, RCA interconnects, XLR, power cords, crossover wiring inside REALLY expensive speakers, etc. And now, wait for it, whole home ethernet wiring. What the hell? Replace everything!
What next? Re-run all home AC wiring with extra-homogeneous ceramic coated, diamond encrusted gold-core? No settle time required and quick burn-in guaranteed. And, of course, the POSITIVE increase in audio sound quality is always mind boggling. Shame on those who cannot hear the voodoo difference.
I occasionally thank God he made me wise enough recognize the scams despite the eloquence of those touting their wasted money.
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azbrd: Thanks!!! One of the most clearly written, intelligent posts I've seen on the subject of digital A/V information transmission. You cannot make up science. Those that are "hearing" a better quality sound (especially via ethernet/HDMI/USB) are unknowing victims of "expectation bias." That is, if you spend money (especially a lot of money) on what you consider an "upgrade," you WILL hear better sound whether it actually exists or not.
I recently bought a slightly used Oppo 105D disc player. The seller threw in 5 Wireworld Oasis 1 meter RCA cables for 10 bucks. The current version of the Oasis one meter cable sells for $110.00 each on eBay. I usually use Monoprice RCA connects. Used a couple of the Oasis cables to run from the Oppo's Sabre DAC outs to my Pre-Amp. Sounded freakin' awesome...just like the Monoprice connects. Had I spent spent $220.00 on those two Wireworld RCA cables I'm sure it would have sounded even better. See what I mean?? |
.....Or that the "difference" you hear is what you "want/need/paid" to hear. Even if it is not actually real. |
@milpai:.On this forum, I sometimes feel like a father with decades of real world education and experience trying to get my teen to realize that "being cool" and "popular" is not that important in the scheme of things. Teens just don’t get it. I know I am right.
I bought my first stereo system in 1969. I’ve been there done that in just about every way possible in audio. Money is not an issue except that I will never waste money on BS scams or components that are of little real value. My $20K Emotiva/Oppo/B&W system uses cables and wiring that meets basic length/resistance requirements. Most are Monoprice brand. I’ve tried other brands costing more...no difference. I currently use Kimber and Wireworld on some of my components. Not impressed...but I have them so I’m use them. The science confirms there should be no difference. If you get sucked into their made up marketing, your ears are hearing what you WANT to hear to personally justify spending ridiculous amounts on "exotic wire."
I’ll say again. I’ll not ridicule those that surrender money to slick, albeit deceptive, marketing, but I will continue to highlight my offense to these deceptive manufacturers and marketeers who trick the money out of the wallets of less savy "audiophiles." |
I agree with tubegroover. A live performance is a whole different animal from a studio recording (and a "live" recording is actually a third). Hmmmmmm...and a well recorded concert Blu-Ray performance is, I guess, a fourth ("Hell Freezes Over" comes to mind). All are different. Asked to choose, I’d likely say if I could only have one it would be a well done studio recording which allows take after take and post-recording mixing by experts to achieve what the producer believes is the best acoustic performance that the recording/mixing will allow.
And before I’d cough up ridiculous amounts of bucks to buy cables that accomplish little (if anything), I buy more music!! :) |
Jinjuku = refreshing truth in a frothing sea of audio ignorance, expectation bias and other assorted BS. Well said, my friend! You can be my wingman anytime! |
We who disagree with the value of high priced, "specialized" cables are not (really) saying we cannot "hear a difference;" we are saying that their is no difference to hear (once basic length/gauge requirements are met). We are your friends and trying to save you money and public embarrassment. |
@ jinjuku: the OP suggested, no...he essentially said, that the equipment in your test did not cost enough and therefore would only provide mediocre results. There it is! The crux of the matter. Accordingly to him and other "subjectivists," spending more money is the only pathway to audio Nirvana. Exotic cable manufacturers and marketeers love people that believe this. The more you spend the better sound you will get. Like a Rolex...spend more and your time will be more accurate. No.....wait; that has been disproven in a head to head Rolex vs Casio competition. But, again....wait; those time test results MUST be inaccurate because the Casio didn't cost enough.
Me thinks the OP is ”in the business" and his opinions/reviews are biased in the direction of keeping the exotic cable myth alive. Ethernet, HDMI, USB and other digital connectors are the next wave of profit centers for these guys. Preying on the easily convinced and poorly informed....again.
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goeff:
I said: "...the OP suggested, no...he essentially said, that the equipment in your test did not cost enough and therefore would only provide mediocre results."
You said: "Actually the OP suggested no such thing. Good try."
OP actually said to jinjuku:
"Seriously, a couple hundred dollar system is what you are putting up for evidence? How about you get some serious gear and do the test? Audiophilia is not the reduction of quality to the lowest common denominator. You WILL get mediocre sound that way."
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Absolutely no reason for any of these discussions to become "ugly." Sould be easy to accept that others do not agree with you without it becoming an emotional issue. Personally, I want to make sure these forums present a level playing field for those with little experience who come looking for advice. |
For this test, $10K vs $2K would be easy money. I'd easily offer another $10K to sweeten the pot on a serious double blind test. Blind tests take away expectation bias (the audio placebo effect) which will reveal the uselessness of high priced esoteric cables....especially digital cables like Ethernet, USB and HDMI.
No one will take the bet. Even those who claim "jaw dropping" and "eye popping" sonic improvements when they paid big bucks to switch cables. |
Actually I get the "audio jewelry" angle in all of this and would bet many buy these expensive trinkets for just that purpose...though they try to convince themselves and others otherwise. To wit (though from an auto perspective): my brother has a BMW X5. I tried to talk him out of it but he just spent north of $3000 to replace his 20" wheels with 23" wheels. This was all about show. Bigger wheels (the way he drives) has no impact on speed, economy, handling or braking.
Same applies to pretty wires and cables. Again, I get that. But high end ethernet? Those wires are always going to be ugly. Ineffective and ugly. |
Of note...lots of recent posts have been "removed." Including one of mine that, I thought, was fairly benign. Are THEY trying to silence us?
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People that bluff their way through life will continue to bluff until called to account. Then the silence is deafening. |
A "winkley-dinkler?". Did you make that up or has it a meaning? I thought we had agreed to no more name calling as that behavior is quite sophomoric.
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wgutz: If this "thread is dead" to you, please "unfollow" it so you do not have to keep repeating the same thing.
geoff: with all due respect, could you keep your posts to a reasonable length? Thanks. |
This discussion has merit. We disagree, sure, but lets not lower ourselves to throw insults at the messenger...like commenting on their (collective singular) comprehension skills.
Here is how I see this. Bunch of guys say the unloved Ethernet cable, if you purchase an expensive one, sounds way better...like "night and day." Couple other guys say not so....digital will always sound the same. Those couple guys challenge those other guys to a bet that they cannot really tell the difference if they don’t know which one they are listening to. No one wants to accept the bet...instead they offer extraneous BS excuses and insult the guys offering the bet.
Good summary? |
The moderators typically remove posts at the request of member posters...I suspect they have better things to do than sit around reading every post on this forum. So, it is most likely that someone here asked for Jinjuku's posts to be removed.
In any case, the posts referencing Jinjuiku's ethernet challenge being removed does not equate to the challenge being a scam. Someone made that up.....uhhhh, who could that be?
Just wanting it to be a scam of some sort does not make it so.
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I think "clearthink" has a "thing" for "
the experienced and knowledgeable moderators" of this forum.
Kinda reminds me of the cowardly lion and the "Great and Powerful Wizard of OZ." If clearthink says it was a scam, by God it must be. Oh, and ignore that man behind the curtain.
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Clearthink clearly thinks he cannot be wrong and his declarations are gospel. Accordingly it makes no sense to continue to consider him a relevant player in this conversation. I will ignore him heretofore. |
atllaudio353: Thanks for calling out this annoyingly overused "(rpt not)" phrases by goeff. Methinks he sits all day in front of his ultra expensive stereo (with garden hose size, elevated and pre-frozen cables) with tablet in his lap awaiting Audiogon posts to which he can protest with "6K post number authority." This is not an insult, merely an observation. Try it. Counter one of Geoff's posts and you'll get a sarcastic reply from him in less than five minutes; complete with the equally annoying little icons.
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Great video. Clearly jinjuku knows about what he speaks. Let's see if geoff or clearthink (opps....sorry we are ignoring him) can present counter evidence of similar clarity and quality. |
Ah! jinjuku...you finally got to geoff. He ran out of credible responses so he, like others here, resorted to name calling. Thought that was beneath him. Guess not.
I suspect by calling you the Ben Stiller of Audio, he meant you are a comedian or a joke. Not so! As I read this discussion you, jinjuku and shadorn are the only ones who come across as really understanding the technical aspects of how ethernet data transmission actually works. Everybody else is just bluffing....and desperately trying not to believe that they may have been deceived - by cable manufacturers, distributors, retailers, marketers, advertisers...and their ears. And their ears are the only ones that didn't make money on the deal. |
Geoff chastises for "appealing to authority" and then he immediately turns around and "appeals" the the "authority" of three, random, unidentified cable reviewers. Who, since they said the cable made a huge difference, it must therefore be true. Baloney.
"Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence." Which Geoff does not.
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Just to remind what this discussion is about and why "we" disagree with esoteric, expensive Ethernet cable being able to actually IMPROVE the sound quality of a streamed audio program over a basic spec cable...it is this.
When you have spent (for example) $40,000 on your speakers and another $50,000 on playback delivery and amplification equipment, you have already demonstrated that you are compulsive in this hobby. Perhaps you have no other interests or entertainment outlets. Like the auto-geek squeezing a few more horsepower out of a high performance engine, you seek any avenue (like expensive cables) to ”make it better." It is in this audio zone (where true performance cannot be measured) that expectation bias rules. Those that understand it, temper their follow on purchases with good judgement. Those that do not, bleed from their wallet and refuse to accept that there are product manufactures that understand you, know you are an easy mark and take advantage of your naivety. |
I think I am done with this discussion. And I will go to bed tonight glad that I am on the right (scientific/common sense) side of this issue. And I'll wake up in the morning to enjoy another day with my music...knowing that I haven't been scammed into wasting money on useless accessories that accomplish nothing more than making me think that I am cooler than Joe Schmoe because my stereo cables are fat, frozen, battery powered, elevated and shiney. So funny.
Don't bother, Geoff, I sorta know what you will say. |
Have fun with the testing. Interested in your results. |
jinjuku: In this forum you could have expected these reactions to your testing. Very good example of "Selective
Perception." This is the process by which individuals perceive what they want to...while ignoring opposing viewpoints. It is a broad term to identify the
behavior all people exhibit to tend to "see things" based on their
particular frame of reference. It also describes how we categorize and
interpret sensory information in a way that favors one interpretation over another. In other words, selective perception is a form of
bias because we interpret information in a way that is congruent with our
existing values and beliefs. Psychologists believe this process occurs
automatically.
While both sides in this discussion could be demonstrating this trait, only your side was willing to go to the effort to actually do some testing. Since neither side will ever give-in to the other viewpoint, I'm glad we are on the scientifically correct side. |
Goodness, GK...methinks thou doth protest too much.
I suspect that given a chance to guess which cables were which on your own system in your own home in a fair and impartial method...where you were not able to know which were which, you would decline...deep down knowing that there was a very good chance you could not pick out your own "best performing" cables from two or three others of much lesser quality (e.g. MonoPrice).
It's never going to happen so you may certainly continue to spout your pseudo-science.
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GK...about what and to whom are you talking? Who is calling you names? |
Greg22lz:. You seem to be way too emotional about our discussion here. If it pains you that much, feel free to "unfollow" this thread. No one wants anyone to be moved to anger or intense frustration over this issue. Hope you feel better. |
knownothing sez: "A quality Ethernet cable, or analog interconnect, or power cable keep signals intact and in their appropriate lanes in a cluttered environment around your gear, so you deliver as close to the initial output at the other end of the cable as you can get without picking up or transferring interference from or to other cables or gear in the vicinity."
Exactly! And a "quality cable" needs not cost more that a few dollars a foot. Spending more makes them look prettier and more impressive but does nothing to improve, enhance or increase the quality of the sound. |
Typical sarcastic nothingness from knownothing. Yes major production studios use expensive cables but that is because of kick ass durability not precise, subtle audio transmission. |
granny! It is not that "we" cannot hear the any difference, it is because there is no difference (that matters). Cables/wires cannot "upgrade" the audio program. All they can do is preclude outside interferences or influences that might "leak into" bargain basement low quality connects and change the audio signal passing through it.
If you have a significant noise or distortion issue, expensive cables aren’t going to fix it. I chuckle when you guys say: "Oh I changed to such and such exotic wire and the improvement was breathtaking." Breathtaking? Really?
"We" hear no difference over basic good quality connects because physically, logically and scientifically significant improvements are not possible. You hear the difference because you desperately want to.😉😉
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Roger that. I think I tried to focus on "improvements" when I mentioned "differences." |
