Hi Grannyring,you must have posted just seconds before me, Your case is well made using the Dude preamp as an example. |
Uru975,
Well stated post! In my experiences simple circuits with fewer parts count(but of premium quality) with a high standard built do usally sound better than than complex (multiple stages) designs with many parts crammed into a chassis.
My linestage is very simple in actual circuir(no signal path capacitor or resistors) layout but admittedly heavy(73 pounds) due to the weight of various transformers,chokes and the two separate steel chassis. |
I make the assumption that people on this forum are mature adults who make their own choices and accept whatever consequences there maybe.I also assume the money spent is money they earned and is disposable after their various expenses, income taxes etc.
If people choose to spend 100.00 dollars or 50,000 for audio equiment,jewelry,boats,cars or what else, it`s their own business. They have absolutely no reason to feel guilty because others have less means. Jealousy and envy solve nothing.
Ironically the folks buying these items of "personal choice" are the same ones getting whacked by a silly progressive tax code(the more you make, the more we take). A large chunk of Mike`s 6days/55hours income is`nt his to keep, thanks Uncle Sam.Those who work and earn their money can use it as they see fit. |
Onhwy61,
The general responses here seem to favor simplicity rather than championing complexity.Superior built, skilled labor part quality etc. were cited as reasons for higher cost items.Undeniably market forces do apply, demand for a product and how much does a consumer value certain items(for what ever reason). People will spend up to their own individual comfort level and no more.
If some linestages go in the direction of increased complex design, it may be at their own peril, buyers will make that decision.
The tax reference was in response to Trebejo`s last two paragraphs in his post.His example does`nt hold water IMO. |
Knghifi,
Well said!
Mitch-4t,
Great car hobbyist analogy
Wolf,
I agree, excellent audio systems can be built with relatively modest money if one is patient and does their homework. There are many very good components that are`nt expensive. High cost and high performance is`nt linear at all.
High end audio is no different from any other specialty hobby, there are many levels of expense(dirt cheap to ultra prices) people find their own comfort point. As long as people enjoy music and the home audio components that make it possible, High end audio will continue to exist. |
In theory a passive linestage "should" be all that`s needed with the higher output sources use these days. The reality is however in "most" systems a good active linestage simply sounds more complete and life-like, there`s more "there". |
Grannyring,
Regarding the direction of some "modern" components your comments are astute. When I attend live performances(unamplified jazz groups) they consistently sound rather,full,rich,round toned and yes warm. Even when they play very fast tempo music it`s still very full bodied and preserves a sense of ease and density(same is true of classical music programs). What ever turn high end audio made toward the lean,clinical and thin tonality destination in the name of accuracy(their version of it, I guess). Well I`ll travel a different highway.Thanks, but no thanks. |
The really wonderful aspect of this hobby is the ability to put things to the test.If you trust your ears, you can judge/test the theories and listen to what happens.You can say a good passive is truer to the source and that active devices simply add "colorations"(pleasing or not). You could certainly conclude also that the passive units are`nt passing the"complte" signal,thus there`s some degree of subtraction of musical information.What one person would say is a clean and pure(uncolored) signal is in reality just an incomplete one and thus sounds leaner,flatten,thin and lacks dynamics and vitality. The active unit may just do a superior job of preserving the original signal(less degradation) so that tone and dynamics are`nt as comprrimised. This would explain(at least to me) why the really good active linestages sound more real and involving rather than stripped down and less involving. |
Good thoughts Onemug, This is why I don`t get emotional or upset on these threads. I accept the fact we all hear differently,have different perceptions and priorities etc. If Clio09 feels passive is better, why sould I care that`s his choice. I just know what sounds better to"me" and we both can be very pleased individuality. I just don`t like when people take a religious like zeal to convince others what`s superior, and then become very defensive in their stance. It`s not that serious. |
George,that would imply that the source passes the signal perfectly, I don`t believe that`s the case. The source itself may be incapable of preserving/passing the signal as well as a premium quality active linestage(just because source to amp is direct does`nt mean the signal is transmitted "fully" intact) Again it really is ultimately determined by the final sound result. No matter how you state your pro passive opinion, as I`ve said before I know what sounds best to me. We`ll just have to respectfully disagree. |
Grannyring,
Beautifully said. |
Grannyring,
You make a very clear and rational arguement for the benefit and advantages for good quality active linestages. The notion that the sorce-amplifier is the ideal signal pathway is nice theory but as others have found out is not the case often in actual comparisons at home. The point I`ve come to realize is that ears trump theory and measurements. What sounds best to a particular listner is the whole and entire point. To say, well if you prefer the active linestage means you prefer coloration is a weak platform to stand on.I believe the direct and or passive approach is`nt fully accurate as it`s not capable of passing all the information within the signal passage. Oh well... |
Pubul 57,
Nelson Pass is an excellent exampe of a proven brilliant designer who devotes much thought and energy toward developing great designs as simply as reasonably possible. His newest First Watt SIT amplifier is a further advance along that path.
Grannyring I don`t question the quality of your system,I know there are complex components that sound very good. It just seems that talented designers who use their creativity and resources get better results following the simplicity path as opposed to the complex,multi-part,mutiple stages approach. |
Onhwy61,
Hi, I must say I`m a bit surprised you did`nt get the obvious point Knghifi was making. |
Goldeneraguy,
The strange thing is the pro active lightstage posters don`t belittle the those who prefer the passive or direct route at all. I`ts just a choice based on what sounds better to you. The passive advocates insist theirs is the purer,more accurate, thus the right way. Many who have tried both approaches have simply found that is`nt the case often. |
goldeneraguy,
Thanks for the kind comments,not only do I like tubes, but particularly SET -DHT tubes(sigh,there`s just no hope for me).
Best Regards, |
Sam I see where you`re coming from, nothing wrong with that approach to system building at all. We all choose are own way to musical joy. |
Atmasphere,
There are many exceptions to your statement regarding fair market markup.To name a few, Lamm,Kondo,Audio Note UK upper levels,Wavac,Burmester,Magico,Tidal etc. Or are these bad examples? |
Up front I `ll admit to being an advocate of free market capitalism. Sellers can set what ever price thay want and the consumer either complies or rejects(for what ever reason).
Grannyring you make some interesting points concerning factors that determine the cost of a product. Where I differ to some degree is the case touted for complexity. Generaliy It seems simpler circuits/designs built to a high standard with superior parts usally sound better(exceptions of course) than their highly complex competitors. While one can marvel at the impressive engineering achievement, many of this uber technical products don`t often past the "natural" sound test i.e. tone and realism of voice and instruments.
I`ve attended numerous audio shows including CES 4 times and have heard many of the praised high power-ultra expensive components and have been rather disappointed. Obviously this is subjective, they can sound very spectacular in an audiophile-hifi realm, but deviate from what natural music really sounds like. The simpler (within reason) circuits tend to sound like the live music I`m used to hearing, organic flow and sheer purity.Ears are good true detectors. Just one humble opinion. |
Hi,
Response34, I don`t recall a single post during this thread where anyone said or even suggested a company should`nt make a profit. There`s been in fact quite a few here(myself included) who openly support capitalism and free market principles.
Some of us have question the "uber" high prices of some components in terms of price/value, but realize that`s clearly up to the buying public to make that call, as it should be.
Refreshingly this thread so far has been free of the socialist-like view that all these high end companies want to do is charge "unfair" prices and ripoff the helpless consumer.
Best Regards, |
"Socialist merely want to use goverment to counter extreme capitalism and to provide services"
Tongue in cheek I surely hope Tbg. |
Response34,
No need to apologize.
I wish you the best of sucess with your Purity Audio Design products.
Best Regards, |
