MMGs

the A23 and Odyssey Khartago have been around a long time. You can find a good A23 or Khartago Plus for around $600

JHills,

Thank you for your recommendations, I will go listen to the 1.7s this weekend.  The room feels like it wants more speaker, but that could be just positioning.

Johnnyb53,

If I pick up the Halo A23, what preamp would you suggest?  I am currently using a Schiit SYS passive amp because the Onix XCD88 CD player has a high gain.

A thought on the DWM panel - base  below 60 HZ is non directional and placement, as long as the filter is set at or below that, isn't really critical. I am not particularly familiar with the DWM panel but I am using a ADS Sub 12 with my 1.7 and It integrates very well, as it operates only between 20 - 60 HZ. icanskate mentioned a PSB sub that also integrated very well. Some believe that a cone woofer isn't quick enough to integrate with a ribbon or electrostat panel. The truth is - there is nothing quick about 20, 30 or even 40 HZ; it's all about producing those low frequencies and moving air in a given amount of space. I believe that the DWM panel/panels would work well and should be fairly flexible with placement as long as operating below 60 HZ. The 1.7s have a very good mid base down to about 50 HZ so any quality sub used only to augment frequencies below that, should work very well, with a minimal amount of critical placement.
Jim   

I had the MMG's not too long ago and shortly after purchased the bass panel which I did not like at all. 

At all. 

Waaaaaaay too many wires running all over the place.  

I suggest a REL subwoofer. My room is 14 x 24 and the small 8" REL was sufficient enough.  Better hook up than the bass panel, too.  

I'm new to the MMG experience as I just got a pair a few days ago - used so they are broken in. Mine came with Sound Anchor stands which raise the panel roughly 6" off the ground, at the lowest position setting, I switched them back to their OEM stands just out of curiosity  - flush with the ground and I feel the SA stands do help both with bass and the overall clarity of the sound. I have them on hardwood floors so may be its the reflections off the floor when the panel is sitting right against the floor or the 6" space on the bottom of the panels. Or it could also be a bit more rigidity that the stands add to the frame.  Can't tell for sure what but the overall sound is better, for sure. The stands allow for an additional 8" of height but I think it'll not only make them look awkward but might make them a bit tippy although the stands are fairly wide and deep. Just a thought. 

Maggy is big  where I live , not surprising as their factory is 6 miles away.
The 4 guys I know who bought the bass panels did not like them .

Johnnyb53,

If I pick up the Halo A23, what preamp would you suggest? I am currently using a Schiit SYS passive amp because the Onix XCD88 CD player has a high gain.

Is your CD player your only source, or do you use FM, satellite radio, laptop, streaming services, etc.?

If it’s just your CD player, you could stick with your passive SYS and see how it works out. If you want a broad scope of capabilities, you might want a matching Parasound Halo P5, which has a phono pre plus several line level analog inputs, plus Toslink, S/PDIF, and USB digital inputs, plus bass management and subwoofer outputs, but at $1095.

In between those extremes, you could upgrade to a Schiit Saga, which provides several line level inputs, passive and active modes, tube buffering, and remote control all for $349. And if you don’t think it’s worth the extra money, you’re protected by that 15-day return period (minus 15% restocking fee).

Here’s another thought: jhills’ suggestion of the Rogue Cronus Magnum is an excellent one. It matches very well with the Magnepan 1.7. In fact, The Absolute Sound reviewed the Cronus Magnum and Maggie 1.7 together, and gave enthusiastic recommendations to both of the components.

The Cronus Magnum is an integrated amp, so it takes care of the power section *and* the preamp. And the preamp has both line level and a phono stage, so you have room to expand into vinyl if you’d like. In my own experience, good tube components add another level of "magic" to the 1.7s in palpability and a more satisfying musical experience.

Right now there’s a Rogue Cronus Magnum with new power tubes listed on Agon for $1650. Remember, that’s a power amp and full-functioning preamp in one chassis.

I have the 1.7s with a pair of Rel T5s and find that they blend very well.  I certainly don't hear the subs as being separate.  I find the 1.7 to be sensitive to vertical alignment.  I put a couple of 1" block under the rear legs to tilt the panel slightly forward at the top and it makes a very noticeable improvement.

Department of 2 Cents.

I just replaced MMG’s with .7’s and am thrilled, stoked, thankful, and pretty much blown away, etc. My dedicated listening room is small. 11’ wide x 13’ long with most of the rear wall open to the LR. I expected an improvement but not of this magnitude. Placement took maybe a half-hour of experimentation. Speakers are positioned approximately 3’ out from front wall, about 18" from side walls, and toed-in a few degrees. Tweeters are on the outside.

Electronics: a world-class tube preamp and, temporarily, an NAD C272 amp. Cables? Inexpensive stranded copper. With all respect, I think that a lot of "angst" and negative comments one reads in audio forums regarding Magnepans is a result of operator error, hearsay, and hyperbole.

I'm fortunate enough to have a Maggie retailer within walking distance of my house. I was able to compare the .7's and the 1.7's one afternoon and I preferred the .7's over the 1.7's. 

While the 1.7's definitely provided more low end response, my ears found the .7's to be more articulate (?) overall. With a suitable sub - not the Maggie bass panel - I believe you'd have everything the 1.7's add without spending more than the cost of 1.7's themselves. 

I think, new, the .7's are about $1500?  The 1.7's $2,000?  The math works, and to my ears so does the sonics. PLUS, the .7's are considerably smaller. 

Voila. 

ps, how'd you characterize the differences between the MMG and the .7? Just curious.  

I don't know if I would venture into 3.3 territory, Maggies that old are bound to have delamination issues.  Just as an FYI - John does not recommend any .7 Maggies, at least not if the long term goal is to have them modded.  He explains in detail on his website why.  I am not going to agree or disagree, I have not listen to .7 or 1.7. 

randy-11 - MDF will absorb a little bit of vibration, but nowhere near enough.  I used to built sub boxes for car audio for years out of various types of MDF, so I am familiar with the material.  Take a stock Maggie, say a 12, turn it up to fairly loud level, and feel the frame.  You'll feel very little vibration, it will feel disproportional to the volume.  Try the same with a gunned Maggie, and you'll feel quite a bit more vibration on the wooden frame.  Natural wood dissipates vibrations far better.

I think the choice between the .7, the 1.7 and the 3.7 aside from the cost and budget is the size of your room and adjoining open space. My listening room is 14' W x 24' L with a vaulted ceiling and an additional 12' x 12' adjoining, open dining area off to the left. The 1.7s seem to be a perfect fit in my space. I have considered upgrading to the 3.7i, but in my space, maybe a bit more than needed and several thousand more dollars.
The set up mentioned by ps is very close to what have. With the tweeter sections to the outside and toed in very slightly, the image stays very stable and on stage. Even if you aren't sitting dead center in the sweet spot, vocals remain center stage and instruments stay where they belong - kind of nice when sharing the couch with someone else not to have to draw straws for the sweet spot.
Gotta agree with ps, mostly hyperbole, I think. Over the years I've had and auditioned many very nice and some very expensive speakers; some of my very favorites being my old Quad ESL 63s and the Apogee Duetta II Sigs. I will always have a love for electrostats and ribbons. Right now, I am most happy with the 1.7s 
Jim

"ps, how’d you characterize the differences between the MMG and the .7? Just curious."

As many have said, the MMG’s are one heck of a speaker for the money and otherwise. I surely agree. The same can be said for the .7’s, which, for me, are a considerable improvement. Sound stage is larger, especially side-to-side, with greater detail, clarity, a bit more depth, and better, more "effortless" bass response.  I feel no need to augment them with subwoofers.

Overall, there is simply, for me, more "planar magic." I also found the .7’s easier to set up than the MMGs. As we all know, much in this wonderful, crazy hobby of ours is YMMV. In this case, I do think one gets what one pays for, and then some. Kudos to Magnepan, a great American speaker company.

I’m very pleased.

the DWMs need to be placed closer to you and further from the wall than the main speakers

I agree - get 0.7 or 1.7 - see if a dealer is near you to listen and for a home trial; call Maggie and beg them to extend the free home trial from them direct if no dealer nearby.

While on the phone see if you can talk to Wendell - see if he sighs or laughs when you mention big stands or maple surrounds.

Don't get caught up in the woo-woo - besides, you will spend plenty of time moving them around in the room...

Have to agree with those of you who have had your Maggies "Gunned."  Had my 1.6's "Gunned" - big improvement.  Better bass, and greater resolution / clarity / definition than stock, and many other speakers.  Of course the soundstage and imaging are great.  And... they're more efficient.  

Well worth the investment if you're a Maggie fan.  

John recommended the MMG's and 1.6's to me as producing the best sound quality... and wouldn't do the 3.6's, or more recent versions.

Not to dismiss bassdude’s recommendation to "gun" Maggies, let me point out that the resulting total money spent (for the speakers and having them gunned), plus the cost of the power amp required to run them, exceeds the cost of a pair of ET LFT-8b’s and the more modest amp they require (even a tube one, if you prefer, not recommended for Maggies), a better speaker than the MMG, MG1.6 or 1.7 (even if gunned), and some feel even the 3.7. And, the ET’s don’t require an arc-welder power amp. Just sayin’.....

kythyn,
I have had a pair of MMGs and one DWM in a 15 X 20 room with a vaulted ceiling for about 2 years. The panels are 2 feet out and 6 feet apart on the long wall.  150 watts has been plenty of power. I had a B&K 2140 for awhile and replaced it with a  Van Alstine Synergy 240 with the double die option about 6 months ago. Its a great sounding amp that has never run dangerously hot at reasonable sound levels. You can occasionally find used Van Alstine equipment at the usual online spots and the company website avahifi.com.
I went through a variety of small to big tweaks for the speakers. Adding weight to the feet with teak blocks and replacing the fuses mattered but not enough. I have to agree with chattaudio about the Gunn improvements. John very graciously shares his design with anyone willing to take on the project. Having finished mine a few months ago, I can honestly say it was well worth the effort. In part, the Gunn upgrade stiffens panel mounting. The Mye stands might make difference but never tried them.
 It has taken some time to find the right DWM placement. It seems best on the perpendicular wall just ahead of the MMGs. They add very little at low listening levels but start to bloom with some volume.
Another two cents,
Scott

 

I recently upgraded from MMG's to a pair of Spatial Audio Hologram M4's.
To me they have more of the good things I liked about the Maggies. I use a sub from Rythmik taking care of everything below 50hz.
I was curious about Maggies so I bought a used pair. I like them. Did the half razor mod on them. Seemed to tighten up the bass. I still have them.
I was intrigued about the open baffle thing. Spatial Audio seemed to be mentioned a lot. I bought a pair used off of this site. These are keepers. Easier to drive with a larger selection of affordable amps. Although I did use a few different amps with the Maggies and none of them broke a sweat. Even the 12 year old Integra AVR I keep as a backup.

.

To characterize the difference between the .7 and 1.7 I would have to first mention the increased size of the drivers themselves - you get a much larger radiating surface with the 1.7's, ergo, a "fuller" sound. To my ears the increased mid/low range response seemed to soften the highs somewhat, and I felt the soundstage/overall sonics were more detailed from the .7's. Again, a highly subjective impression but one from an individual who truly loves Maggies. 

Until I came across Thiel, Maggies were my reference point for loudspeakers in terms of sonics. The first time I played the MMG's I was quite literally astounded. $599 for a pair of speakers that sounded like THAT?  I was patting myself on the back for a good amount of time after that. On vocals and jazz they were/are truly exceptional, eclipsing my current Thiels in some respect. (CS 3.6)

Both of these brands have an undeserved reputation for being "power hungry" loads on amplifiers, but in my case it's been decades since I've listened to Led Zeppelin I at a level that would make my liver and other internal organs quiver. On the other hand, Thiel, like Maggies, "reveal" - they are as revealing of good electronics as they are to lesser ones, an aspect which often finds one on a quest to find amps/preamps to make them sound their best. 

Again, I suggested a REL sub to complement the .7's because I found the bass panel, and its connections, to be less than desirable sonically and esthetically.  I used a small 8" REL in my 14X24 room with a ceiling that slopes from 8 feet to 17 feet at the apex. My listening level is VERY conservative, and that setup fit the bill for a while.  However, becoming a member here a little while ago has inflicted me with a serious case of audiostupidiosity, an incurable malady many of us share, even revel in. 

I bought my MMG's new, direct from Magnepan. I bought a pair of MGIIIa's used from a gent 80 miles away, and my pair of .7's used from another gent in NYC, about 60 miles away. In my experience I find that peeps who own "good" stuff tend to care for it during ownership and I've yet to encounter an instance buying on Audiogon which could challenge that. 
In all the instances I picked them up personally. I'd have some reservation about having a Maggie shipped for obvious reasons. 

I believe the OP can find a very happy space with the addition of a good sub at a nominal increase in outlay. The MMG's are remarkably fine loudspeakers to begin with!

Adding a good sub is a great suggestion and a good place to start if you're liking what you hear from the MMG's. I have the high pass filter from HSU Reasearch. I can crossover at 50hz or 80hz. I chose 50 because that's where the MMG's roll off.

fr8dog, in most rooms you will do better at about a hundred or 120, but even 80 is better ,
mids , which is Maggies wheelhouse, sound better when bass has less work to do.
Try it, and try means at least a week . Month is better, brain needs time to adjust fully .
Fifty is when they drop off a cliff, been rolling off since 300  easy

oblgyn , great post !

I have a pair of Rega RS-1 that showed what a 100K of Lamm electronics could do and my uber-rich buddy finally admitted it could .
And his speakers are Magico 5 ’s .
Just yesterday I went to pick up a cheap SACD player on craigslist, for the few I own.
The house I pulled up to was a mini-mansion in one of the best Mpls. burbs
which is saying a lot.
The guy was very friendly and showed me his system .
Has a 500, 000 $$$$ system , 4 custom made 9 ft tall JBL horn based speakers, which he controls by remote , five or six JBL subs , a dozen amps all XLR etc etc etc etc, Had many thousands of ripped recordings on computer at his elbow .. Played some Opera for me with picture on must have been 80 inch Sony TV . Sounded more like a heavy- metal rock concert than an Opera and singers were among best in the world and the Met Band ain’t bad.
Was glad to get home to my modest system in modest condo to listen to some music .
Was nice guy though .

Two more cents:

Prior to my .7's, I sometimes used a pair of inexpensive Pioneer Andrew Jones 8" powered subs with the MMG's.  That system is one heck of a musical return on investment.  The subs are packed away now because I'm happy with the bass response of the .7's.  

Gotta admit I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the options.

Am now wondering if I should venture into streaming, since (in response to JohhnyB53), the CD player is my only source.  Streaming then leads me to a NAS of some sort.  Those two lead me to a DAC.

Budget under 2k, what should I be looking at in these three areas?

To elaborate on my previous post a bit, if I introduce $2500 into my budget and take my current equipment into account (1 year old MMGs worth $450(?) and an old but checked out Adcom GFA-555 worth $300(?)), then I have $3250 to spend if I liquidate my current gear.

Some of the options you all have educated me on, and I am having trouble deciding between are:

1) Gunn the MMGS for $2500 and keep the Adcom. This option puts me 3k into speakers which is 3.6R territory plus a host of full range speakers I only have heard names of.

2) Replace the Adcom with an Odyssey Khartago ($1000) or Parasound Halo A23 ($1000). Keep the MMGs or upgrade to 1.7s ($1500). There is also a Bel Canto S300 on here for $750 or a Classe 15 for $1000.  

3) Replace the Adcom with a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum integrated tube amplifier and replace the MMGs with 1.7s ($3500)

4) Keep the current gear and add a subwoofer (or 2) for $1000 - $2000.

5) What I mentioned above - Keep the current gear and invest in DAC/NAS/Streamer.

I recognize the ultimate decision is mine, but please continue to comment on your experience with some of these combinations.

I would start with a Khartago and either the .7 or 1.7. Love the 1.7 haven't heard the .7

Those also are easy to resell if you change plans 

I would leave streaming for last 

Yet more cents.

MMG’s stock $599. Resale value predictable. Enjoyment factor predictable. Value? Considerable.

.7’s new @ $1399. Resale value predictable. Enjoyment factor most assuredly predictable. Value? Considerable.

MMG’s "gunned" including cost of speakers. Cost? Resale value? Enjoyment value relative to cost?

My restored MMG’s yielded a great deal of enjoyment, and they’re likely worth about $275-300 now. My .7’s brought my enjoyment to a completely other level.

Of course, return on investment is in the ear of the purchaser/beholder. As always, YMMV.

A former vinyl/addict/purist, I love streaming, current DAC is MyDac. A great little piece of gear at a minimal investment. YMMV

Tonight is a tweeter's in kinda night.  I love how Magnepans enables the  user to exercise her/his option.

Hard to go wrong with the Odyssey Khartago. I used a Cyclops "integrated" (Khartago with volume control) for years with my MMGs and it never broke a sweat. I also used a PS Audio Trio amp (class d) rated 100/200 wpc into 8/4 ohms without issue. Both amps sounded great with the Maggies.

Great Magnepan Tweak!

Tweeters out. No contest. Cost? $0. No shipping or sales tax. Easily reversed at some future date at no additional cost. YMMV

My Dear Khythyn:
"Now and then it’s good to pause in our pursuit of happiness and just be happy."
GUILLAUME APOLLINAIRE, novelist

I have MMGs in a similar-sized room. I made oak stands that raise them 5 1/2" off the ground with adjustable feet to tilt them back just a hair if desired and to counter uneven flooring. I followed Magnepan’s setup instructions and tweaked a bit from there: toed in a bit but not on a line directly to critical listening spot - not that far; tweeters on the inside, distance between inside of each speaker stand is 6 1/2 feet, inside edge of speaker out about 25" from back wall (all the room I can afford).
I matched them with a Rythmik FG12 sub (a respectably fast, musical sub that marries well with the Maggies) that is inboard a few inches of the left speaker.
I drive them with a Hafler DH220 with full Musical Concepts mod, and it provides plenty of power. SUPREMELY better sounding than the Adcom GFA6000 I was driving them with, and plenty of power.
Lastly, on a whim, I recently made up some DIY speaker cables using 6moons "White Lightning Moonshine" recipe.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html
I was utterly blown away by the sonic difference (I was using straight 16 awg speaker wire). Made up the cables and ran the bare wire into the speaker terminals.
You can greatly improve the sound of your MMGs without spending into the thousands. My biggest difference was the Hafler amp upgrade, and that cost me less than $500. For the MMGs............it’s plenty.
However, a good, fast and musical sub crossed over around 50-60 Hz is pretty much a requirement to get the most out of them, IMO.

Luck.

you haven't even heard your mags sing yet
Purchasse the best Pre owned Bryston 4 you can afford
next year 1.7s
JohnnyR
Audio Connection 

I agree with someone up there....get a good musical sub!
Bass makes everything better.

Not sure what you're using for a preamp but with $2500, I agree with everyone's suggestions to upgrade your amp with  used ones until you find the sound you like, using half the money. Only consider high current amps. I haven't heard the Odyssey but the  Rogue integrated brings some warmth to the MMGs and the Parasound was worth a listen. I like the Van Alstine Synergy 240 I'm running now with a Van Alstine T10 tube based pre.

If your CD player has a digital output, you could use the other half of your budget on a decent DAC. You may be surprised at the difference. The DAC market is little crazy so listen to as many as you can to get an idea of your voicing options and what fits your tastes.

 I have only heard the MMGs in my house so I can't comment on the sound of either the .7 or 1.7 models. I can say the DWM brought subtle depth and noticeable dimension when placed correctly and wired out of phase. It is hard to disagree with issues about the cost effectiveness of the gunn rebuild in an under $5000 system. It is  a complete transformation of the stock speaker, replacing the MDF frame with a solid wood structure, reorienting and rewiring the driver and rebuilding the crossover. Great project if its your thing but otherwise pretty daunting. Unfortunately, they may send you on an upgrade path that goes far beyond your original budget plan. A used  DWM might fit in  your budget with the right amp and dac and fit the sound profile you're shooting for.
 

In a complete change of direction, I am going with Tympani IVs and will sell my MMGs.  I am considering a few amplifier options, including the Odyssey Khartago bi-amped with my Adcom, a Crown Macrotech Reference standalone and a pair of Wyred4Sound mAmps as monoblocks

 I am currently using a Schiit SYS passive preamp with the Adcom, but am considering a Van Alstine PAS 4i with the Crown or Wyred4Sound.  I welcome your input on these options.

AVA Pas4i is a great pre, I have one .
Problem is the switches in them are well known to crap out and new ones are not to be had .Usual reason they are for sale .

Schubert,

Thanks for the heads up.  What would you suggest as an under $500 preamp to go with the Crown or Wyred4Sound?  Or should I go straight to a DAC instead of a preamp?

There is a Great American Sound Thalia pre on here going for 200 bucks, I had one and would jump on that right NOW .
In fact, IF you don’t like it I WILL buy it from you for $175 bucks shipped to
MN !!!

I sent the seller a message, will see if he will deal with me without the 3 positive feedbacks.

Most anyone will take a Postal MO .

He had specific requirements of selling only to those with 3 or more positive feedbacks.  If I pair this with a Crown Macro Reference to drive Tympani IVs, will it help with the reputed "hardness" of the Crown in highs?

could make it worse

Check the AVA website. Frank has my recently traded Omega III pre for $445.
 He does a thorough bench test and offers a one year warranty