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Millercarbon's Mega Vibration Control Journey

Vibration control is such a huge, and hugely important, topic it deserves a thread of its own. There was a time I thought it nuts to say such a thing. In fact I wrote a letter to the editor excoriating them for wasting my time on the goofy idea that clamping components between shelves could have any effect on sound at all, let alone be worth spending good money on a rack designed to do just that. This was the Michael Green rack, and thanks to my closed mind and dismissive attitude I never did bother to try and find out for myself if there was anything to it.  

Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work. 

Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.  

This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time. 

Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right? 

These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way. 

Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR.  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367  

A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
128x128millercarbon
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,527 posts
 
At least half the upgrades moves and more are the result of ignorance and comes from a great frustration more than from the necessity to do so....

It is my experience.... I cannot prove it but i listen to my 500 used vintage system smiling at any possible upgrade like it would be unnecassary...( diminishing return law)

Embed rightfully anything before upgrading something....

The greatest increase in S.Q. comes from the 3 embeddings implementation not from an upgrade of an electronic component most of the times.... There is exception for sure.... I will never pretend than a 20,000 speakers is on the same footing than a bad pair of cheap speakers for example....

A low cost amplifier cannot trash a Berning amplifier for example, even my extraordinary Sandui AU 7700 will be beaten....

But rightfully embedded i will live with it without even looking for any replacement....

If the piano sound does not come from the speakers no more and inhabit the room in 3-d, you are there with the Sansui or with the more refined Berning..... The difference really comes from a rightful embedding more than from the amplifier upgrading..... The 2 amplifiers are myth and legend on their own anyway and the 2 are very good....

Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking....

:)





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oldhvymec
5,101 posts
 
Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking....

:)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well said, I’ve select my stuff for what it can do. Doesn’t mean I’ve pulled ever last drop out of it. I’m just now 9/10 of the way done BEFORE set up, in 2 30 year old rooms. BOTH were built with sound in mind..
I just had to retire to get it the way I like it. My two hand built the house, I’m gonna finish the house...

Vibration was addressed when we poured the foundation, I used friction piers on stem walls. Double up on the girders and floor pinning..

Electrical, the friction piers are the house BOND, the earth ground is hooked to every pier... Every pier is 10 feet in the ground.. Every 4 feet..
16 piers outboard, 6 piers inboard.

Acoustics were addressed when built.. Front wall is a 3 foot deep 15 foot long, 8 ft tall BASS trap and equipment racks. That area is a solid concrete foundation 2 feet deep, 3 foot wide and 15 foot long.. You just open the THREE trap to access equipment, and or dampen the room real quick.. depends on the music..It was and is used for a closet, BUT that wasn’t the original intent, Don’t tell the wife..

NOW to clean the crap out of here and get it done.. No one is gonna do it for me... Everything is here...

I been collecting stuff for this swan song for years...IT’S TIME..

Stupid heart attacks, slowed me down, I feel GOOD...Pain in the stomach/back to tell the truth... WEIRD...

I was use to givin’ them, not having them... :-)

SAY MC how the heck are you doing? You all fixed up now or what?
Still reelin' about the Turnover I bet.. I am.. Weird year!!

Vibrate on good man, vibrate on..

Time to feed the chickens.. Come on dog..

Regards

eichlerera
98 posts
 
The concepts of mass loading and internal damping of stereo gear is often overlooked and underappreciated.
First, massive shelving units should be utilized.
I use the Mapleshade Samson Racks. They are TANKS!
These racks are spiked through a thick carpet into the cement floor

FTR, I use 100% ModWright products.
All my components and speakers have heavy weights placed on top of them (usually Lead and Brass).
The total weight ranges from 25-50 lbs.
I use brass cones underneath to prevent lateral shifting.
These cones interface with 2-4” Maple Plinths which are further isolated from the actual Maple Shelves by using dampening devices. Also utilize some Sorbothane footers to further dampen self generated component vibrations.
In addition, my CD Player and Pre Amp have inverted cones on the top of the chassis. I tighten my adjustable shelving which sandwich and squeeze the components between shelves.
The component does not move in any direction. Period!
My Amp uses a floor plinth arrangement with heavy weights on top.

The next step is to deaden the chassis and internal components to the maximum extent possible. I use Noico 80 mil Car Sound Deadening Material on the unit’s internal sides, bottom and top, in multiple sheets where it is feasible. I also dampened any component or part which would accept a treatment. Transformers and CD Drives for instance.
Added silicon rings and brass hexnut “crowns” to my small signal tubes.
So far I’ve treated my Amp and CD player.
Will do the Pre Amp in the near future.

Finally, I placed a dab of RTV on the top of every capacitor I could reach. Caps are probably the most sensitive component to vibration.

A lot of people seem to think mass loading and component damping can take the life out of the music.
My experience has shown that this is not the case.
The above tweaks have GREATLY elevated the sound quality, imaging and soundstage in my system.
The bass is super tight, articulated and thunderous.
I actually had to reduce the volume of my subwoofers.
All this was especially evident after I treated the CD Player.
This is the logical place to start treatments.

Admittedly, quite a bit of man hours are required to undertake this project. But the rewards are WELL worth it!
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,527 posts
 
With the speakers using a fine tuned damping and compressive load, with one set of 4 springs boxes under the speaker and another set on top of the speaker and directly under the load and then fine tuning the load is the key to an increase S.Q. because the difference on the applied compressive force between the 2 sets of springs decrease also the power of the negative internal resonance of the speaker...

Then the load is not only there to damp the speaker but also to work as a compressive force differently on 2 points: under of the speaker and on top of it, creating then an elasticity in the speaker reaction to his vibration and internal resonance also....


I am not a scientist but it is only my explanation...
agisthos
442 posts
 

I'm a bit late to the game with isolation having only tried Herbie's products. They used to work for me and after a few rounds of component changes, the magic just wasn't there. In fact, those footers were having a negative effect so I stopped completely with isolation and relied on my solid maple media stand and rack, allowing the mass of it to do the trick.

@nonoise I'm glad you say this because I tried a bunch of the Herbies footers about 10 years ago and it was the exact same experience. They made a difference to the sound that was very noticeable, the problem was it made things sound worse.

My theory is soft jelly like footers do not allow the resonances of the component to ground away from the chassis, it keeps it trapped in the component.

Since then I have found Stillpoints footers on maple shelf/platforms is the best combination - but boy are those Stillpoints expensive (and worth it).

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