Dear Downunder, having re-wired both the EA-10 and the MAX-237/282 at least 3 times each (mostly with IKEDA silver PTFE insulated litzwire, I can testify that the stock inner wire of both tonearms is rather a sonic downgrade.
Both do feature pretty decent and un-symmetrical coaxial pvc-insulated copper wire inside which does not allow to show off their sonic virtues. The shield of that coaxial wire is used as "-" and is different gauge AND different material mix (steel/copper). It is not so much the wire which does need some time to settle, it is rather the solder joints.
Given the very tiny signal voltage (not to mention the micro current) of a LOMC, I regard silver wire inner wiring in a tonearm a conditio sine qua non if you really want all details buried in the groove brought to the preamp's RIAA.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Travis, not easy, but if you have any experience, good tools and not too much coffee the day, it will be a work of 3-4 hours. You need a SMD-tip for the solder iron, very precise temperature regulation and very small gauge solder.
The main body can be re-wired too - I've made it once ...;-) .... not fun, not easy and requiring quite some time and patience.
Cheers,
D. |
Opus111, as said before in my earlier post, both tonearms do feature what I consider "worst case scenario-inner wiring". Coaxial with a mixture of gauges and copper/copper-steel litz-wire. Add the additional connector - with two more solder joints and two different material transitions - and you have the reasons for the sonic downgrade.
Versatility and additional features requested those additional connectors, but the poor coaxial inner leads are an irksomeness in tonearms of this built-quality and price tag.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nikola, headshell leads should - as well as the phono-cable - be silver as well to preserve the minute details. In any case - it is a chain that transports a signal which gets spoiled, altered and diminished during its path through several terminals, cables, passive and active components, solder joints, networks etc. Every single step/part in this chain which you alter to transport the signal with less alternation, will sonically pay off.
Especially here in the very beginning of the path, where the signal from a LOMC is a fraction of a millivolt in voltage and similar low current.
To use a conductor with as high as possible conductivity is only logic in my point of view.
Hand -in-hand with this rewiring goes cleaning of the solder points and re-soldering with lead free 10% silver solder.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Logenn, IMHO the Ikeda silver inner wire is the best of all worlds. Very flexible, very pure, pretty heavy gauge and superb insulation which can (if one knows how) be stripped without the slightest harm to the conductor.
I use Ikeda inner wire since 20 years now and had nothing but the very best results with it.
Most of the great tonearms from the past to suffer from poor inner wiring.
If you look at several top-flight-tonearms of today, you see that many of them sport inner wiring of high caliber and sometimes even prime trademark.
It certainly is an essential part of their performance.
In tonearm we are dealing with the lowest and smallest (read: most fragile) incarnation of the audio signal.
Careful inner wiring with highest conductivity metal is kind of "clearing the alley for the sonic parade".
Cheers,
D. |
Dear T_bone, ...;^) .... what went unnoticed by Raul's sharp ears and eyes once again, is the fact that I listed a few good purely mechanical and physical arguments to go with the Ikeda silver litz (which I neither distribute nor make myself ...).
Big problem with the Ikeda silver litz is, that you don't get it cheap nor with considerable discount anywhere (if any fellow Audiogoner does know a cheap source ... I would be happy to learn).
In an inner tonearm wiring I look for the same as in every other component or part in the audio chain: - objective technical features and quality aside from all individual "sonic taste" or "liking in my set-up".
Real physical quality never gets out of date.
After all, a cable is a stranded wire.
The purity of it's metallurgy and the care in production are key to it's conductivity - at least to the last small percentage and with the lowest current or voltage (speaking of LOMCs ...). Pure silver has the highest standard AES conductivity - aside from supra conductors working with ultra low temp cooling.
Now add an insulation which is ultra flexible AND needs no strapping (which in most cases does some inevitable surface damage to the conductor) and you can hardly ask for more.
At least not regarding performance in the old school meaning of the term.
If however one need the tonearm wiring to "match", "blend" or "synergize" with the sound of a given "set-up", "cartridge/phono stage" or one's "idea" of how it "should sound" - then there are certainly many more options (about as many as audiophiles on this planet..) and a much wider selection in tonearm inner wiring.
Isn't audio great ?!
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nandric, on point! "the best" in audio related terms always has the very same meaning.
It translates to "the best I have heard with my individual matrix of preferences, likes, dislikes and moods". Sometimes it too means "sounded best with my set-up", "the best I can afford" or "the best my buddy told me".
Always my pleasure,
D. |
Dear Lewm, the silver litz in the Ikeda is not isolated from each other. The fact that here a small bundle of extremely thin wire is used is due to the requested flexibility. When possible - for instant in armwands like the MAX-armpipes or Exclusive/Pioneer - I used heavier gauge solid core silver.
But if the wire runs through the bearing flexibility is a key factor.
Pure silver features a 6%+ conductivity versus pure copper.
Given the same gauge, to me there is no race between the two and no competition.
I agree that silver can sound "subjective inferior to copper" in certain circumstances or audio chains. But that - IMHO - has nothing to do with copper being a better or equal quality conductor for audio signal, but with certain compensatory effects in that specific audio chain and - last not least - with individual taste.
In my experience copper does indeed loose the most subtle nuances compared to silver - same gauge - resulting in less harmonic details, less ambience air and less transparency.
But that is my opinion and my experience.
No dogma here.
Everyone happy with copper won't get any argument from me.
But for me personally copper is no alternative and I have eliminated it in my components and cables wherever possible and substituted it with silver ( not all Ikeda silver ..;-) ...).
In tonearm inner wiring we are dealing with the lowest signal current and voltage swing in the whole audio chain. Here silver is inevitable IMHO.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nandric, not everything in Bavaria is actually made and designed by Bavarians .... Munich works so good because 260 000 people from Northrhine-Westfalia live there (I am one of them ...). And about the status of BMW ... well, there are a few other candidates too.
However - as far as I am concerned, we can carry on discussing the menu and wine list for a prospective Audiogon gourmet meeting at the bavarian banks of the Danube.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nikola, at least "discussions" between R. and D. do contribute do fill the audio silly season which approaches soon ...;-) ...
You and me know well enough the principle of the volontè générale and how it was and is misinterpreted ever since it's birth.
Nothing about sound description is objective nor can it be.
In audio discussion with it's high egoism and individuality the abuse of personal preferences all too often leads into this kind of thinking.
Scientific approach ?
Certainly no one here really has a scientific approach to electrical components of the audio chain and particular not to their "sound quality".
This audio whole game is the contradiction per se of scientific approach.
You'll even get arguments here about simple geometry and force vectors.
Audio discussion is all about personal ideas, likes, dislikes, taste and individual matrix.
It is very much the same as discussing religious topics and believe.
Non-objective by nature.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Halcro, I like the idea with the new tonearm. In any case I will serve as a silent assessor (i.e. "objective" "judge" ..;-) ...).
I wouldn't want to miss this for the world. Expecting a collision of different ideas.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Thuchan, the problem in all these cable test is always the same.
It is the very same in all these audio tests.
Every test not performed by yourself is performed and verified with a different set of ears and a different brain as yours.
As such these "results" are what they are - nothing and void, if not done by yourself.
Unless you envy and want Raul's ears, experiences, taste ( can't imagine that - did you see that rug in his living room ?) and system (can't imagine that either ... knowing yours quite well ) - his "findings and results" through "strict process" may have a meaning to him and may even help him in his learning process and his set-up, but are not transferable to others at all.
Neither to you, nor Syntax nor me.
You know my taste and sonic ideas very well and I know yours.
We both do from direct 1st hand experience and thus both our "findings" can be put into perspective by the other.
Unless you visit the mexican Zarathustra and get a 1st hand experience there, his findings will remain smoke and dust to you.
That is his tragic dilemmata as well as that of other self-proclaimed Audio-Zarathustras.
There is no truth aside from what you like.
It all comes down to you and your taste (thank god!) - having to live with the taste and ideas of another is certainly not the way I would like to spent my days.
Cheers and fun !
D. |
Dear Thuchan, T_bone, Nandric, ...amen ....;^) ... |
Dear Lewm, yes, I know that the inner construction of the Ikeda doesn't qualify for the term "litz". I rather quoted the general phrase used for this type of inner wiring. Ikeda himself names it just "Pure silver wire".
Silver is not "better" by 6% versus copper of the same gauge and purity.
At least not in the sense of the word...;-)....
It's AES-rated conductivity for LF audio signal is 6% higher.
Thus the chance to preserve the faintest parts of signal-swing are better by 6%.
At least my "personal tests" did illustrate and verify this relation to me.
Ad hominem versus ad personam?
I guess it is rather de-escalating if I put my answers in a rather generalized form and do not answer direct to a person.
There will be very little argument at all in the future between R. and me.
Promised...;^) ....
Cheers,
D. |
Dear in_shore, fully agree ...;^).... If however we must give credits to Chinese cuisine in Heaven.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nandric, as far as looks go, I am a mixture of George Glooney and Pierce Brosnan ... ;-) ....
Cheers,
d. |
Dead Halcro, i live 30 minutes East of Bad woerishofen. They have a nice Public SPA now ......
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nandric, yes indeed, you need to taste the "Parker-hyped" Chateau Pétrus once.
It will be a teaching example what promotional hype means in today's world. It is not bad - not at all, if you get a good vintage - but totally over-priced as a result of the rush Parker initiated with his bold statement more than 2 decades back. It certainly is one of the best from Pomerol. But if you do not share Parker jr. very specific taste and expectations in wine, you won't be positively surprised at all.
However - you'll never hear the statement "best wine" (generally spoken) from someone "into" wine at all. Way too many areas - way too many different tastes, way too many differences in vintages (taste a 1973 Pétrus - awful to say the least ...) to put any meaning into such a statement.
It is a nice example how "price equals quality equals status" is manifested in so many peoples mind in the western hemisphere.
Some people just need a "best" to put some meaning into things and to stabilize their world.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nandric, is there actually a need for consensus?
Consensus according to some (in fact: to many people today ...) means to agree to their point of view. If one can't agree (for whatever reason - subjective, technical, cultural background, education, taste, history, social disposition), then consensus is out of reach. But I do not see this being a problem at all. Disagreement is all over the world and audio - no problem.
Here on an online audio forum egomaniac disputes and struggles between dominant males/top dogs are as common as they are in the woods, investment banking and on the soccer field ...;-) .....
Best,
D. |
Dear Logenn, not really ....;^) .....
Cheers,
D. |
Dear In_shore, dear Thuchan, too bad that I am attracted by blonde european/caucasian girls only ..;-) .... but then I never was part of the "mainstream" nor the latest fashion. Guess I just have way too many "old european" blood running through my veins.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Nikola, just 3/4 of the girls world-wide?
Unfortunately the percentage of blondes is much much worse ..... and then a man must stand to his passion !!
You just can't please all the people (girls ...) all the time.
Or: so many opportunities - so little time ...
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Isochronism, I think blondes will never ever get out of being en vogue - at least not as long as there are real conaisseurs among men. So the competition may not be high in number, but fierce in quality !! However - I for one are no longer in the race. I found my blonde "treasure" 15 years ago.
Cheers,
D. |
Need to mention that I was in México twice in the mid-1990ies. Both visits were a 1 week stay in México city with the then CEO of BMW-México. So I was in an all-guarded area and saw little more of the mega-city than what was possible through the shaded windows of the limousine and the large garden view.
Back then there were some present danger of kidnapping for ransom (not me ...) in the streets of México's capital.
Still an impressive city.
Not my cup of tea - nothing beyond personal preferences, as I am more a child of the clear, wide north (more blondes there ....;^).....).
Cheers,
D. |
