You didn't give the dimensions of your room, so I can't comment on the size of the sub chosen. But, I generally believe that 10" or smaller subs are not subwoofers. I know of no reason, except price and size, not to choose a 12" or larger sub.
I also believe that the majority of speakers sound better when the bass load is removed from them and given to a subwoofer. To do that you need to be able to insert a bass management controller in front of the power amp. Unfortunately, today there are very few BMCs on the market. Hsu Research has a model (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/high-end-crossover.html
) with unbalanced connections. I have no personal experience with it, but I would consider it if I was in the market today.
As I recall, most Velodyne subs provide a high-pass filter. They are typically 1st order filters which means that the main speakers will still produce quite a bit of bass below the filter's crossover point. This has always been my beef with using the filter in Velodyne subs.
Given that your main speakers should do a fair job with bass (depending on your room and how loud you listen), I would try the high pass filter in the sub before spending any money on other electronics. So, you'd run a pair of interconnects from the preamp to the sub and then a pair of interconnects from the high-passed outputs to the power amp.
Good luck, I think adding a sub will provide you many advantages.
It's impossible to tell simply by reading the specs but your amplifier appears to be underpowered for your speakers. If that is the case then Bob has given you some important advise to consider.
The DD-10 Plus is a very potent sub with far less distortion than its already low distortion predecessor. It has many connectivity setup options which are located in the User Manual.
For an economical pair of long run RCA interconnects and Y connectors Blue Jeans Cable offers decent quality and fast delivery.
The User Interface manual goes into detail on how to use the Manual Room Optimization program which can also be found on the Velodyne website. These adjustments are straight forward. On the other hand you may find that relocating the sub and/or tweaking the adjustments over time can further the integration with your speakers and/or the room.
You should set one of the presets to 180 degree polarity since many recordings are out of phase and you may hear the bass drum tighten up.
While it can certainly be done, the MF is probably less than ideal for the application you seek.
If you can locate an NHT X-2 (no easy trick, since it's been discontinued for a while), it will allow you to implement the arrangement that Bob recommends (and which I also recommend).
However, it looks like all your source material is digital. In this case, I'd always choose to integrate the sub in the digital domain with bass management software like Audyssey (or similar). The room EQ piece of the digital bass management software is included in the Velodyne DD subs, but - unless it's been upgraded in recent years - it's not a very elegant version of this approach. And, as Bob notes, you're locked into a low-cut function for the mains that's often suboptimal.
OTH, Audyssey xt32 is IMHO really, really good. It's commonly found in upper end AVRs and multi-channel pre-pros, but a similar solution (from Cirrus, not Audyssey) is also available from HK in their model 990 integrated. The Cirrus multi-channel chip has gotten mixed reviews, but I thought their 2 channel chip worked well in the HK when I heard it.
I'm not familiar with your equipment, but on paper it would seem you have what you need for 2ch listening. Speakers go down to 35 Hz. Mono block amps put out 200 watts into 4 ohm's. You should have plenty of bass, unless you listen to organ music or you like the bass artificiality enhanced. What don't you like about what you have?
I use 2 Velodyne DD12's with my monitors. I'd have to respectfully agree to disagree with what was said above. They're not that difficult to integrate. But again, why bother?
I don't think anyone said or implied that a Velodyne sub was difficult to integrate. There are real concerns about bass management and room mode correction for getting the most from adding a sub to a speaker system.
The difference between bass and smooth clean bass is why one would bother. Even if the speaker's stated f3 is accurate, there's no indication of the amount of distortion produced at what SPL at that frequency. Experience tells us that unless the room is small and therefore the SPL is low, distortion could easily be greater than 20% at 35 Hz. Thus, high-passing the main speakers has real advantages.
While I agree that RMC in a sub is probably better than no RMC, it's band of operation is limited to below the low-pass filter point. So unless the room is large enough that the largest room mode is below that frequency, it'll be missed by the correction software.
Finally, adding a sub can improve the bass response of a speaker system even without RMC. It's highly unlikely that the main speakers will be located in the room where the bass response is the smoothest. The ability to locate the bass source independently of the mid/treble drivers is a key advantage of a sub.
I get great and plentiful bass from my trusty old REL 10" sub that goes down to 25 hz or so in my medium largish room, proving that indeed you CAN get great bass from a 10 (I use 10's in my pro bass playing rig also). Not sure if all 10s work this well, but plenty of happy REL users like the way these integrate with mains that remain unfettered with filters...no filter fettering folderol using the "high level" input on a REL. My only experience with Velodynes was a 15" servo thing many years ago, and that worked well also. I don't think digital bass management nannys are always necessary as all they do is compress and ride the bass level, although I may be a minority in that opinion. Fussy...it just gets too damn fussy...
Wolf, your perception of great bass in your room really shouldn't be taken as anything more than your subjective opinion, which is not proof, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's evidence (measurements by independent folks in a large open space) that small subwoofers produce high THD+N values at fairly high frequencies at fairly low SPL. It's just a matter of physics; having REL on the nameplate doesn't change that. Those same folks have demonstrated that REL subs in general do a very good job of keeping group delay low.
You're confusing bass management with equalization and room mode correction; apples and cars. Room mode correction doesn't compress bass except in those instances that it is unnaturally elevated due to the physical dimensions of the room. The net effect is a smoothing, not compressing, of bass response.
"Room mode correction doesn't compress bass except in those instances that it is unnaturally elevated due to the physical dimensions of the room"...meaning it doesn't compress until it does? Hmmm...it's "smoothing" by compressing and limiting...that's what they do...the "room mode correction" gizmo decides what bass peaks are going to offend the listener and limits them, because, as we all know, ears should not be trusted. I need a "provincial Church Lady" correction device to use as a forum response nanny.
Also, I suppose I should have said "great SOUNDING bass" (!), because that's what it is, and distortion levels below the 55hz or so where my REL is active (especially since I never tax the thing with excessive level) when measured by measurers is irrelevant if inaudible...proven all night. Room correcto no, distorto minuto no problemo.
Hmmm, seems like we've scared the OP away with all this "technical" stuff :-). As a self proclaimed non-audiophile who's probably not looking to tinker til the cows come home, it was my initial thought that he (or she) already has what's needed for 2ch. listening. Come to think of it, that's still my thought.
Yeah, I agree with you about equalization and compression, but not the negative connotation you imply. If a lumpy unnatural bass response is what floats your boat, then definitely ignore room mode correction.
distortion levels below the 55hz or so where my REL is active (especially since I never tax the thing with excessive level) when measured by measurers is irrelevant if inaudible...proven all night.
Just because you accept it doesn't mean it's not there nor truly inaudible. It's inaudible to you, because you haven't heard the less distorted version. It's like many things in audio -- relative. Until you've heard the difference you're not aware.
And it's not just the distortion from the sub. Since you don't use bass management, the main speakers are distorting as well and much more so than the sub.
If it's not an issue for you, then great. We all decide where to draw the line of acceptance.
I've heard room correction systems and I think they are for people who lack the ability to set up hifi systems or prefer digitized and flattened bass response...that's hardly natural. I prefer to not use a digital nanny in my room but clearly you do in yours, and why would I care? I've been a successful musician and a live sound mixer/recording technician for decades and know exactly what "natural" sound is, and the bass in my system is not "lumpy or unnatural" because I wouldn't put up with that, or with what you claim is audible distortion in a system you haven't heard. To assume any room that doesn't use a digital nanny has bad sound is a weirdly self aggrandizing stand to take, and oddly dismissive...my point is merely that you don't need to buy into what somebody in a lab coat says you need...or maybe you do!
To see if I'm a Luddite or simply an Actual Expert (heh heh), I did a cursory scan of audio reviewers in my pile of gear rags in my recycle que, some reputable, some arguable, to see how many are regularly using any sort of the aforementioned "Digital Room Mode Sonic Nanny/Babysitter Bass Controller Limiter/Compressor Robot Gadget"...and found the number to be zero. No Cordesman...no Tellig...no nothin'. Perhaps I should have searched harder...but If these things are as magic as some say, one whould think the Audio Illuminati would have universally adopted 'em...but, sadly (for the Asian slaves toiling away making this stuff), they have not.
I do use digital room mode correction, but when I say RMC I'm not restricting the term to digital. RMC can be and has been accomplished for decades by optimal placement of bass sources, adding additional bass sources, utilizing passive acoustic devices like bass traps and applying analog equalization. It's just that in the 21st century DSP has advanced to a state where the physical and aesthetic constraints of living rooms can be accommodated and room modes dealt with as well.
The physical dimensions of rooms cause lumpy bass. I call it unnatural, because it's not in the source signal. It's a coloration added by the room due to the long wavelengths of bass frequencies. Dr. Floyd Toole (one of those lab coat guys) makes the general statement that below 350 Hz we hear the room; above that we hear the speakers. He also states that at least 1/10 octave resolution is necessary to uncover the lumps. Anyone can verify this in their own room.
For reference, I suggest the collection of whitepapers at the Harman web site: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Pages/WhitePapers.aspx?CategoryID=White%20papers
Particulary, the 3 paper series by Dr. Toole and especially "Getting the Bass Right." The multi-sub paper byWelti is also very useful.
From the general press, Robert E Greene (http://www.math.ucla.edu/~greene/
) has been talking about this subject for many years before Audyssey came into vogue. His web site is here: http://www.regonaudio.com/default.html
I'm certainly no expert in audio (nor anything else for that matter), but I do have a formal education in science (all degrees in computer science, but studied mathematics and physics as an undergrad). As Dr. Toole says, audio is science in the service of art.
I would have to agree with Marco...the law of diminishing returns is very evident when adding bass to already full range speakers...in my experience the extra cost, time, and end results were counter productive...Dynaudio is a quality product with sufficient bass for most applications...smaller speakers obviously can benefit from a sub...but I always have admired the slim tower design...same footprint as monitors with stands...with much improved bass response...and still very good imaging...
,however...the addition of a sub can be most advantageous if the source material warrants it...ie electronica, organ, reggae,etc
A good sub can charge the air in a room and make your mains seem to be working better even when listening to mandolins. A bass guitar has a low E of about 41hz and an experienced listener with good speakers can easily tell if it's an upright or a Fender...easily...take that, Dr. Toole! Carpet or rugs and all your crap and furniture will work wonders to tame a room and that, speaker placement, and keeping a sub level in control are all you might need for non lumpy sound. If that doesn't work you can nail mattresses to the walls, or give up and buy a Digital Nanny.
Also...lets face it....subs are complicated...they take tweaking/tinkering...and in the hands of the inexperienced...can cause more harm than good...just my .02...
I like the roomacoustic sytem of Velodyne a lot. I think they are great for surround as well. But in speed and in what I call stealth integration there are better ones. For stereo use timin is a very important matter.
Thanks for all your input. You are all very kind. Apologies i was away on travel and am looking at all the msgs. Let me start by giving you a basic setup on the listening room and answer Bob's question.
-The room is shaped like a square with a triangle on top. i.e. total of 5 walls with one side open; something like the figure below
The measurements of the walls are as follows (in feet, H x W)
1. Wall behind the couch (10.4 x 8.6)
2. Wall behind the TV and wodden cabinet (10.4 x 11.0), depth of the wodden cupboard cabinet (2.5)
3. Wall next to the wodden cabinet with large windows (10.4 x 9.0)
4. Wall next with 1 window next to couch wall (10.4 x 9.4)
5. Distance between speakers and couch - (7.10); distance between the speakers (6.7)
6. The open side wall is has space of around 4 ft
For all the help; i owe you guys a round of drinks when you are in Sing next. Please look me up, if are in this part of the world. Thnx
That's a pretty deluxe cell for Sing Sing.
The biggest reason for me considering adding a sub was bass. I listen to a lot of progressive house music and though the Dynaudio speakers are full range I'm not happy with the bass. I prefer a simpler solution (maybe bass management hardware) that's why I zoomed in the velodynes given auto eq and optionality on the connections. I don't see me changing the current set up (MF amps or speakers) despite the shortcomings as I like the sound. Welcome thoughts and other ideas. Thnx ameet
There is a lot more information on every recording. With a sub you get more ( extra) information. Since more than one year I use my subwoofer from 16-140hz. Bij using it till 140hz the level went even higher. From 80 hz low freq become touchable. Using it till 140 hz instruments and voices are sharper focussed.