MC phono stage without transformer?

A lot of people never heard a high class step up transformer when they talk that transformers are no good...listen to a Kondo KSL-SFz and into a high class tube phono stage in an appropriate set up and they will forget about their high end solid state phono stages...

Dear Dougdeacon,

I havnt said that all solid state mc stages are bad, Im sure that there are a lot of good sounding units out there. I was really happy with my former Gryphon Orestes which was solid state. But besides things like dynamic, resolution etc. (where a lot of people put there attention on in separation) a high class MM tube phono stage and a high performance step up leave the music more intact than any phonostage I know (ASR, ARC, Gryphon...). Sure there is also a major influence of the MM stage in the preamp used. At least in my set up the build in phono stage in my preamp and a good step up are "better" than all the phono stages I used with the same preamp. I also have to say that the 7000,- Euro Gryphon (I had a all Gryphon system before going for tubes) was close but not on the same level in "giving music sense" as the tube step up combination. I just say this cause I cant stand people saying "transformers are crap" after hearing their 100$ Denon transformer...

What Ralph said is true and yes, all attempt to replay music at home is a comprise no matter how good the technology gets...on the way to the technological perfection it is often forgot about music, at least thats my feeling with a lot of highly acclaimed components I heard. For instance the highly regarded ASR Basis exclusive. It was a big disappointment. It had everything from frequncy extension, resolution dynamics etc and I'm sure it measured perfect..BUT it left me uninvolved and emotionally cold in the long run.

Sure transformers might be "old" technology and might not be the best choice for some modern high impedance carts but they can provide a sound that lets you focus more on music than on sound. By the way the Bent, as good as it is (I have also one, copper version), it is very "different" in the way it connects you with the music than a Kondo or Auditorium Hommage (my references for transformers).

Dear Raul,

"well you don't know every one and certainly not the best integrated units"

sure my notes are made out of my experiences and I cannot have tried ALL high class units. The mentioned ones have been the ones I was living with for a longer time, but I heard more in different systems (most of my audio friends made the same experiences like me and listening with step up transformers now). Do I heard the best integrated units?...I dont know, but I had one of the most regarded and exclusive solid state phonostages which is said by many people to be clearly above the level of most SS designs, the Gryphon Orestes. As mentioned this one was very good, even slightly "better" in some specific hifi terms such as bass power BUT it doenst let you forget about the technical aspect of music reproduction as my actual set up. My maybe limited experience is enough to make my say that a good transformer is at least not a bigger compromise than a SS unit in general. There might be units like the Atmasphere preamps with high gain tube MC stages which might be a good way of getting rid of the transformers. I just heard the MP3 which was ok but doenst convinced me.

Before getting my actual stuff I was running an all Gryphon SS system never giving a thought about tubes and transformers. But after getting my actual preamp "by accident" I was almost shocked what I was missing all the time. Here we are for sure also on the area of personal taste and I have experience that different people have different ways of listening to music. For me, the more a component lets me forget about hifi, gives sense to music and touch me emotional the better I find component, but I also have made the experience that a lot of people rather focus on things like dynamic, detail, frequency extension instead.

Dear Raul,

"There are two areas ( frequency extremes range ) where the SUT degradation are totally audible ( very special on bass. )"

I experienced this also in comparison with my Gryphon Phonostage which had a deeper bass than some transformers via the build in phono stage in my preamp. But for instance with the highly linear and extented Jensen JT-346 (also used in the Jeff Rowland Cadence SS phono stage) this was not noticeable.

What I noticed and this is also my personal taste, that the bass via SS phono stage (Gryphon, ASR or others) never had the "quality" and integrity of the tube/transformer combination. Which can also be said of the bass from my Gryphon SS power am section in general, compared to my VAC tube amp which replaced it.

But I'm using french Cabasse speakers. The "legend" says that they are sound best with tubes. From my experience I have to agree.

Dear Raul,

"I prefer like you that an audio system be " emotional " ( just like music is. )but I like at the same time that have at least to other " vitues " : neutrality ( not analytical ) and " credible " whole tonal balance from top to bottom."

Talking too much about the emotional side of music reproduction might suggest that I like a highly colored soft "tube" sound. But thats not the case. When I changed from the high bandwith Gryphon SS gear to tube gear there was no decrease in "neutrality" (which I dont like as a notion) it was just more open, breathing and natural which surprised me as a then tube newbie as well. I think its the most common preconception on tube gear is always "warm" "colored" or whatever. That might be the case with some proportion of the tube units but it can't be said in common as well as it can't be said that a SS amp always has to sound bleached and thin. Sure due to the specific technology tube gear should be partnered with appropriate surroundings.

"Those facts ( amplifier impedance output and electrical speaker impedance ) tell me with out any doubt that the reproduced sound can/could be heavy " colored " ( for say the least ) due to that impedance mistmatch and in some way to intermodulation speaker distortions due that its crossover ( woofer ) is on the high ( very ) 1200hz range."

In general to tell from the specs on the sound is imho highly speculative. But I think you speak of the output impedance of the VAC 80/80 but this is a completely different design than the PA60...Anyway I had the Gryphon SS gear (which can control almost every speaker) and tube gear here in parallel switching back and forth any combination to convince myself since I never was a "tube guy". There was no trace of mismatch lesser control, or "unnatural" coloration. The VAC has also has a 2 Ohm tap but I prefer the 4 Ohm tap.

"Now, I understand that those colorations ( any audio system have in high/low manner. ) are the best for you ( nothing wrong with that ) but that could does not means is " correct " against what is on the recording or to a live event."

I'm a musician myself and I think I would not like a too sweet or unnatural sound in the long run. But speaking of "correct" and "neutral" I have to say that I have been in a lot of regular studios(not the ultra expensive ones). From these experiences the terms "correct" and "neutral" lost a bit of significance for me in the last years. If I see how a lot or maybe the majority of music is record today, it makes me wondering how the high-end community is fixed so much on the terms of neutrality and correctnes when the software itself is not neutral or correct to the original sound.

In the end for me personally it is more important that the music through a given system appears to our senses as natural and believable than a single specification sheet. In the best case both music making capabilities and specification are top. But I've heard a lot of stuff that was sure technologically superior but it made "sound" instead of music.

Best regards

Ron

Dear Raul,

"Dear Ron: As I posted I made a little of research on your audio items just to " imagine " what are you hearing but for what you told here your music/sound reproduction is far from what I can " imagine ", good."

To this posting I can only say, that I which to have your imaginary abilities. It would save me a lot of gas money while going for audio exhibitions or friends, since I could imagine the sound from my listening chair by getting the specs via email...;) sorry for my not so serious comment...

"Ron, I'm sure that you are enjoying your system's performance and maybe what I posted could help you to think and try to improve it."

Thanks for your advice ;)

" My experience suggests that, at an "affordable" price point a step-up transformer makes sense. " +++++

IMHO more than " make sense " : " you have no choice ".

I would rather say the opposit is the case...if you have to meet a affordable price region you have to go for a SS or even integrated circuit desing instead of a good step up...but thats my personal opinion. Some people even say that step up transformers came out of fashion when transistors could have been used with much reduced costs...