@audiotroy never likes a product he doesn’t sell
Manufacturers pushing their products and agenda in the forums.
In the deep, dark, past manufacturers participated in the Audiogon forums with a general sense of decorum and a sensitivity to other products that they did not manufacture themselves and which were, from a design standpoint, philosophically opposed to their views.
What has happened? Manufacturers now post into the forums dogmatically espousing their myopic view of the hobby, shamelessly pimping their own products and view of the audio world and, even more disturbingly, running down opposing brands.
IMHO, it may be time to throw the baby out with the bath water and ban manufacturers, distributors, retailers and importers. If they can’t get their act together they should take it on the road.
What has happened? Manufacturers now post into the forums dogmatically espousing their myopic view of the hobby, shamelessly pimping their own products and view of the audio world and, even more disturbingly, running down opposing brands.
IMHO, it may be time to throw the baby out with the bath water and ban manufacturers, distributors, retailers and importers. If they can’t get their act together they should take it on the road.
117 responses Add your response
viridian: "“I consider myself a well adjusted and reasonable individual with a distinct lack of psychological issues and peculiarities.” Of course you do, LOL." Well, I definitely did consider myself well adjusted and reasonable up until that unfortunate sexual molestation and murder of that young women. Okay you got me, let me just say I still consider myself a reasonable individual with the 'well adjusted' personality trait accuracy still awaiting the court appointed psychiatrist's final determination based on his extensive examination of me. Hopefully, I can report back on this open issue prior to my execution. Tim |
| Post removed |
viridian, I'm just interested about what motivated you to start a thread, which in my opinion is much ado about nothing, in the first place. Why exactly do you think this is a big issue and why do you have such difficulty discerning between legitimate and shilling posts? I'm not itching for a fight, I consider myself a well adjusted and reasonable individual with a distinct lack of psychological issues and peculiarities. However, I do admit I am the curious and analytical sort, which explains my interest in your reasons for posting on this subject. " Please feel free to abstain and let those interested continue." Actually, my interest in your post is waning precipitously and I've contemplated abstention but I also enjoy slow-motion car wrecks, like this thread, in which no one is seriously injured. I don't believe I've stooped to personal attacks upon you or belittled you, at least not in any manner that would cause any durable harm, so I therefore don't think an apology is merited. I agree that we all have our viewpoints and that is what makes these forums both interesting and challenging. I suggest this thread should proceed and develop unfettered by any unwarranted moderation and with my sincere commitment to continuous consideration of abstention. Tim |
| Post removed |
I agree generally with the OP, but feel that any banning would need to be done on a case by case basis. At this point, I know of just one poster/retailer here who blatantly hawks the products he sells on various threads, and trashes those he doesn’t sell; all of it under the guise of providing useful, albeit unsolicited information. Then, he gets into arguments with other members when he is called out for it and criticized publicly. |
My take is that this entire thread is a bit ridiculous and has been going on far longer than the topic merits. I believe the OP, viridian, likely intention was just to stir the pot since I doubt anyone would have such delicate sensibilities, and such a lack of confidence in their own abilities to discern between shilling and informing, that they'd plead for some sort of censorship and protection. What are you so worried about, viridian? What's the worst thing that could happen? My suggestion is you either get a backbone or rent one, call your mommy, get some counseling or buy a pacifier. Love, Tim XOX |
I certainly get the sentiments of the OP. It can be galling if a thread is invaded by manufacturers or salespeople practicing gauche levels of self promotion under the guise of "helping" or offering their valuable experience. (And some do have valuable experience to add). But fortunately I’ve found quite a number of manufacturers to be quite restrained and actually sharing what seems to be sound, valuable information. Roger Modjeski’s thread is perhaps a highwater example. My instincts do not tend towards censorship. I never, ever ask a mod to delete intemperate posts even if they are aimed my way, and I prefer to see as many voices as possible having a say. A manufacturer’s or salesperson’s reputation is his/her own to guard, and it’s fine by me if some handle the responsibility of posting well, while others shoot themselves in the foot. I’ve learned which posts to skip reading so it doesn’t slow me down too much. I take the good with the bad and there's some great stuff to be had here and there. |
This reminds me a little of the move " invasion of the body snatchers". When they see their victim the project that shrill tone....we will all soon be victims.... full disclosure.....wel not as full as it could be....I was a dealer...and for that I am so sorry.....as I drive off in the sunset in my Ferrari to my new million dollar mansion...to be with my new wife who is 30 years younger then I am......well maybe 35 years younger....I bid you adieu.. |
| Post removed |
Not to long ago someone on here started talking about a product that was unlike any other product. He / she owned the product, stating it was better than everything else. How unbelievable this product was, talking about the technology, the whole nine yards. After a few weeks, with a little investigation, it turned out, he / she was " the US dealer " for the product. Did not come clean. This, I did not like, and called him / her on it. This, to me, was a shill. I have no problem with dealers or manufacturers here, but it would be nice if they were honest about who they are, and I find almost all of them are up front people. |
| Post removed |
How about absolutely no changes are made and we just informally refer to regular forums here as "Danger Zones" just because it sounds more exciting and cool. Do you have what it takes to enter the Danger Zone? Don't even think of entering if you're a whining little crybaby blue-green lizard like creature from the planet Virid (sorry viridian) or any other creature from one of those other planets in the infamous Whining Reptilian Belt. Entrance requirements are ice in your veins, balls of steel ( elizabeth, you don't qualify literally but you do figuratively.), the ability to think for yourself and the ability to distinguish those manufacturers/retailers providing useful information and opinions based on their vast knowledge and years of experience from those manufacturers/retailers just engaged in unwanted 'shilliness' or salesmanship. Caveat Emptor is the motto in the Danger Zone. Tim |
| Post removed |
Please, let's not denigrate a line from a Dylan tune. I'm quite sure he would want no part of these discussions. Just to recap, what is disturbing are the frequent threads that are slipped into the forum by people feigning enthusiasm for particular products. It's OK, once in a while, to believe that some audiophile is so excited about their recent purchase that they want to share their experience. However, lately we get a steady diet of threads on the same product (i.e. Tekton). I find the enthusiastic exclamations to be disingenuous ("I had goosebumps"). They are simply being initiated to spark interest in an obscure product. Rightly or wrongly, I firmly believe that these threads (ads) are being placed by the manufacturers, dealers or friends of the company owner. Of course they are excited by the product...they sell it! |
yyzsantabarbara I propose that the regular Audiogon site become a SAFE ZONE and a new area is created on the site called the audio DARK ZONE. A place where manufacturers, dealers, and anybody else can participate without worry. You enter the DARK ZONE at your peril but you can always feels safe in the regular SAFE ZONE. >>>That was tried already over on Audio Asylum when they created Isolation Ward for discussion of “controversial tweaks and controversial subjects.” It was in fact intended to be a clever way to isolate your humble scribe and Peter and May Belt and perhaps others from the General population, as it were. That was the year the Intelligent Chip dominated the discussion on Audio Asylum for around 9 straight months 24/7. If you take a look at what has happened over on Audio Asylum, no offense, there is a peculiar lack of content and longer. Next stop, the ventilator. Of course others might disagree, and good luck to you. Please, no angry emails. The same thing happened to Stereophile Forum, too, sadly, which has become a vast wasteland. He not busy being born is busy dying. |
I propose that the regular Audiogon site become a SAFE ZONE and a new area is created on the site called the audio DARK ZONE. A place where manufacturers, dealers, and anybody else can participate without worry. You enter the DARK ZONE at your peril but you can always feels safe in the regular SAFE ZONE. I believe university’s have a similar arrangement for speech related issues. |
I see some manufacturers are taking notice and having threads pulled that their dealers are on, a wise move. I don't think some of these dealers have any idea how much damage they are doing to the manufacturers they are representing. I've seen two in just a short time that I have felt horrible for all because the dealer could not control themselves. If I was these brands I would yank my product out of these stores so fast they would be gone before you could spill a hot cup of coffee on your britches. To boot I would make sure the memo got out to never get near this dealer. For the folks who don't realize how much times are changing, having a reckless dealer out there can burn your company to the ground. I'm going to give one example without mentioning the brand. We brought in a product 2 years ago that we were considering having at a show mixed in with some of our toys. The products were very high dollar and get mentioned here often. We did our usual evaluation and setup this highly reviewed product to only have it blown away by a $29.00 CDP tuned up by us. Their amp went through the same process and failed miserably against literally every other amp in the house except for one, who it barely held it's own against. The company behind the scenes bought back the components and asked we not mention their name. People need to realize that we are not living under the rule of reviewers anymore and their less than legit ways. Frankly there are some amazing products out there and more coming out that not only compete but many times are taking on the high dollar brands. These products cost pennies and those getting wise to them are scoring big time. I'm one designer who has been around forever and am not going to be shy about helping the lower cost products make their way into listeners homes. I mean it's like buying a perfect new york pizza for a penny, why would you not share this news. Sorry dealers and manufacturers you should have been more up on your designing and thinking less about how to squeeze the last dollar out of good people. This wonderful trend of getting more for pennies is not going to go away by intimidation, it is a serious paradigm shift and well over due. Michael Green |
Its interesting being a dealer who also likes to talk audio on forums. I really don't try to sell anything, other than responding to thread topics about products we carry, and offering risk free trials. The products can try and earn their position in a clients system. There is no final sale, until the customer is happy. My post get removed fairly often, so I guess offering trials is crossing a line. |
I'm paying a deposit for a preamp after being impressed and convinced with the Manufacturer's explanations in a thread. Two weeks ago i was reading a thread about a preamp that is in my list with other three. There were opinions & point of views. The manufacturer entered the ring. All doubts were cleared up. I verified to confirm his points with other owners. I'm happy to ead The manufacturers replies to all raised issues here. |
| Post removed |
I agree 100% with Elizabeth about the shill threads. They are advertising products, and this is supposed to be a discussion forum about audio/video. The fans don’t just use the threads they start to peddle their faith based tweaks, they infect other threads also. And they are spouting the same crap over and over again. Make them pay for their ads and separate them from the discussion threads. |
I've heard there is an Australian manufacturer who posts on many forums pretending to be a customer of the products he produces. Constantly asks question about "how good are these products?" "Or can you tell me if these products are any good" and then has a couple of helpers chime in with praise. He was quite active on Audiogon until recently. He was banned on the DIY audio forum for doing this and ridiculed on Stereonet Australia. Stereonet Australia has a strict policy about manufacturers not using the forum for commercial promotion. |
Can I make a suggestion. Sometimes it’s good to take a step out of internet forums for a few days and take a breath then come back in. When an internet forum becomes so much a part of your life that you start policing it maybe it’s time to step outside and take a breather. The audio industry is changing and has been for a while. As well the late 90’s-late 2010’s generation of HEA is coming to it’s end game in many ways (the overbuilt over priced hobby). The new school is replacing the old and the old school (pre late 90’s) is having fun enjoying itself. There’s nothing about this hobby that is worth being abusive toward other members. That’s an issue for the forum owners to address. I personally don’t read a lot of the threads here, but when I do happen across one that is an obvious flame I usually pass, because I don’t see the benefit or maturity in bashing. When I do see a basher the first thing that comes into my mind is "there’s a very sad person, someone who is certainly not a real listener". Real listeners are not unhappy people and if they are they usually keep to themselves. The folks you see disruptive on internet forums are not the real deal, never have been and never will be. Keep in mind that flamers can’t stand real folks and will do anything they can get away with to hurt others. Others of these folks honestly simply don’t have any other life of their own and these too are easy to spot after you are here a while. Michael Green |
| Post removed |
almarg: "Noble100 4-17-2019 I just wanted to add that I think we're lucky to have industry insiders, like almarg and others, post on various subjects here on Audiogon. Thanks very much for the nice words, Tim. For the record, though, I do not now nor have I ever had any affiliation with any individual or organization in the audio industry, other than as a customer. My professional background is in defense electronics, primarily analog and digital circuits for airborne radar systems. Best regards, -- Al" Hello Al, Sorry about that, my error. I meant to mention atmasphere as the industry inside, not yourself although I do appreciate your forum contributions, too. Thanks, Tim |
Elizabeth: "Viridian is a blue-green pigment, a hydrated
chromium(III) oxide, of medium saturation and relatively dark in value.
It is composed more of green than blue. Specifically, it is a dark shade
of spring green." Hello Elizabeth, So, you know this little whining, crybaby blue-green creature from planet Virid? Careful, you're giving us clues about your home planet. Tim |
| Post removed |
Noble100 4-17-2019 Thanks very much for the nice words, Tim. For the record, though, I do not now nor have I ever had any affiliation with any individual or organization in the audio industry, other than as a customer. My professional background is in defense electronics, primarily analog and digital circuits for airborne radar systems. Best regards, -- Al |
I just wanted to add that I think we're lucky to have industry insiders, like almarg and others, post on various subjects here on Audiogon. I've found their contributions, based on years of experience and accumulated knowledge, to be very valuable and hope they continue to post as long as they're willing and able. Thank you all, Tim |
| Post removed |
We live in a country that's the poster child for free enterprise, freedom of speech and mildly restricted capitalism. We're bombarded almost from birth with thousands of advertisements on a daily basis for every product under the sun on every available medium. Being good capitalists, some manufacturers/retailers/non-hobbyists have recognized the opportunity that audio forums represent for a bit of free marketing. This has been going on here and elsewhere for many years and, personally, I don't think it's a big deal. I've grown rather fond of identifying 'shilliness' attempts and calling them out when necessary. Why's there a sudden interest and urgency to stop this practice now? Unless you're from another planet like elizabeth, it just becomes 2nd nature to ignore these ads or forum shills and quickly move on unless you're interested. Wait a minute, the OP who instigated this manufactured issue has the user name "viridian". Do you think he's one of those whining little green lizard-like slimy crybaby type creatures from the planet Virid? Tim |
From the OP: Manufacturers now post into the forums dogmatically espousing their myopic view of the hobby, shamelessly pimping their own products and view of the audio world and, even more disturbingly, running down opposing brands. FWIW, my perception has been and continues to be different. Certainly what you describe in the first paragraph I quoted occurs on a fairly regular basis. But nevertheless it seems to me that the contributions that are regularly made here by those who are part of the industry on the whole provide value that far outweighs those negatives. A much more significant problem, IMO, is the non-constructive and unpleasant turn many threads take, which as I see it is generally attributable to the personalities of some of the posters, whether they be members of the industry or not (and in most instances they are not, if only because most of the membership is not part of the industry). But of course that is inevitable to some degree at any Internet forum, and under the circumstances I think the moderators do about as good a job as could be hoped for in drawing a balance between controlling that kind of discourse and stifling discussion. Best regards, -- Al |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Years ago a manufacture’s advertising budget consisted of print, broadcast and trade shows. Today a massive portion of that budget has moved to social media. So many of the forum opinions and "user ratings" on E-commerce sites are simply the work of ad copywriters. The better ones intrigue us, the others offend us. |
I guess that I am guilty of posting then also. I hope that my experience and my advice to all Agon members from building components and repairing components is helpful as I was once on the other side. I do not think that I push any of my products but I guess when I say I build components that can be interpreted as marketing my products and services. A solution maybe that Audiogon adds something to my member name like - mfg to the end so that someone can easily identify this. I try to be as honest as I can be in offering advice on the threads from my 30 plus years of experience. I even hold back from bashing others when I think their opinion is not so helpful. IMO my experience comes from hearing so many systems, having access to so many systems, repairing gear so that I can see what impacts the sound and then building components which has taken many years of trial an error and exposure to see how things work and what can be done to improve the sound. Most of the time I hope that this is helpful to many. Also as an industry insider, I also have an opportunity to hear and learn things that the average person here on Audiogon is not exposed to in the industry. I don't think that I really push my stuff on Audiogon for selling my products (my price range is not the sweet spot for most Audiogon members) but my repair service I think helps people. But if it is determined that my input is not something that others feel necessary, then I will be happy to refrain from posting. Maybe Audiogon should post something that lets everyone vote on the subject and that decides the outcome. Happy Listening. . |
