Magnetization & Demagnetization any conclusions?
I can't say specifically about Quietex, and I only have one clear vinyl record. I did not hear any improvement with that record, but it sounds pretty damn good anyway. The explanation I have read is that the ferrous particles come with the carbon black used as pigment. I haven't tried it yet but in theory reversing the process should affect the sound. |
I use a Geneva bulk tape eraser (about $80) to demag my LP's once after I clean them on my Loricraft RCM. I notice a definitely audible drop in noise floor. The process takes me about one minute, only once, and I find it worth the effort. I would not pay $2000 for the Furutech choosing to put that money toward a better RCM instead. I have not tried this on Classic Quietex clear vinyl. Lloyd Walker told me directly at RMAF during a demo of his Talisman that his Talisman is more effective on clear vinyl than it is on black vinyl. He also told me that his Talisman works for only one play of the LP and works better than a bulk tape eraser used for demagnifying an LP. I've never compared my Geneva to the Walker Talisman. |
Thanks for your comment Atmosphere. That was the point I was trying to allude to - has anyone actually tried the Furutech on one of these Quietex records? If the sound improves substantially then it would appear not to be the magnetic suspended particles involved and something else is going on. If it sounds the same then we can make a reasonable assumption that the particles are what is causing the percieved change. Now........... anyone? Thanks Kevin |
Yeah, who ever heard of changing the path of optical particles with magnetic fields. ;-) The only thing ridiculous about this is that some companies want to charge an audiophool "tax" on demag products. Even at $200, the Walker Talisman is over priced. But $1800 for the Furutech is way beyond stupid. |
Id like to ask two questions if I may. 1)Is the effect of de-magnetizing on the Classic Quietex clear vinyl audible or less pronounced? It seems to me if the source of the effect is inclusions this shouldnt be audible ( or less so) on these records. 2)Is this procedure audible on systems less resolving than most or all of the posters above? I dont have much money in my vinyl front end: High mass L75 Lenco / Sumiko MDC800 arm / Ewe bodied Denon DL103R / EE MiniMax phono stage and Im wondering if a bulk tape eraser would be worth trying or not. Thanks for any information / ideas you have. Kevin |
If something induces a current one could probably hear it, especially with a low output cart. I don't think lifting the motor at least a quarter of an inch above the lp is going to show much of anything as far as the tiny magnetic fields that these appear to be. Static, on the other hand, has been known to induce snaps and pops with an arm still on the rest. But that is built up potential that wants to jump to equilibrium. I don't know if this "technique" is actually removing magnetism or just causing them to orient differently. I seem to recall that someone did try to measure this. Maybe it was soon after Fremer's article, I'll see if I can find it. |
That is how I would describe it. Lower noise floor which allows one to better hear separation of the notes and stuff. This is definitely in the realm of insanity and one will get much more of an impact by properly cleaning their records. But I find the 10 or 15 seconds it takes is worth it, and I have yet to find a record that needs an additional treatment. Nor do I find any difference in static behaviors. I.e., I still have to use my zerostat gun. |
If there really is a random magnetic field in the LP, it will manifest as noise as the magnetic field is moved past the MC cartridge, much like tape hiss as tape moves past a tape head. However it will be at a much lower level! So if y'all are hearing a reduced background noise after treatment, I would give the magnetic field idea some credence. The only problem is, static charges will be interpreted by the cartridges as random changes in voltage (IOW, noise) as well! I would expect wood and plastic body cartridges to be more susceptible... Interesting topic. I don't have any sort of instrumentation that I would deem sensitive enough to sort any of this out, so for me it remains an intellectual challenge; apparently one that is audible. Sheesh. |
Sirspeedy, Except inadvertantly by touching something during handling of the LP in the process of demagnetizing it, I don't see how the demagnetizer per se would affect static electric charge on the LP. Someone else mentioned this previously; the two phenomena are quite different. But then again, I really don't understand how LPs get magnetized in the first place. I will accept on faith however the reports that demag helps. |
Pedrillo,my previous arm was the Graham 2.2(I think you have this...no?).I liked it alot! The Phantom I can comment on now,as my friend owns it,with almost the exact system as me.It is superb,and a bit more forgiving(as to fluid)from the 2.2. HUGE soundstage/dynamics/musical flow,using the Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge.This is the ONLY cartridge(other than the Temper-v) I can comment on,with this arm. The ONLY reason for my moving to the Phantom was the Orpheus is SO GOOD,that I felt the fluid sensitivity of my 2.2 would no longer be needed,"based upon the different dynamic presentations" of each LP played.I wanted to feel secure in the fact that I was getting everything from the incredible Orpheus.In other words...with the 2.2 one could easily set fluid/vta/vtf for different LP's constantly,as each disc has a different dynamic characteristic(brought about by pgm material,pressing type,cutting,AND previous cartridge wear,if the LP was bought used).Over the long haul this drove me crazy(as is apparent from reading my posts-:). The Phantom completely does away with any perceived "resonant" characteristic,using the Orpheus(which has lots of energy).The difference is quite astounding! Hope this helps,even if off topic. |
Rushton,please understand that I am ONLY "scoping out" thoughts,and feedback from experienced folks lurking here.I will not be able to add anything of substance,IMO! I am simply intrigued by this new tweak.If it turns up anything that can better my already extremely satisfying pleasure of my own system,then all the better.I am trying to figure out(and I'm sure there will be my own rationalized spin,to satisfy my personal decision)if I really need to look into this further,in my particular listening environment. Sadly,and honestly I am SO missing the pleasure of spinning my LP's(since I am still awaiting my new Graham Phantom)that I "think" my CD sound is getting really good. Hmm!!!I must be halucinating,a bit,at least. Yet,my latest 2 CD's of Annie DeFranco("Canon"),and Jazz At Preservation Hall("Shake That Thing")are SO well recorded that maybe I can rationalize for another few weeks.We'll see. Best. |
A mutual friend of both myself,and my pal with the Furutech demag unit,has thrown a fly into the equation.He ststes that since my Furutech demag pal has so much static(all year round),the improvements of using the device could also be reducing static.Hence,better sound.Personally,I have absolutely no idea as to what's what! One thing I must state,is my own dedicated room has 24/7 50 % humidity,at all times.I have not ever had a hint of a pop,or tick(thank God). Friend #2 is a very suspicious guy(one reason for my past poor behavior/posts,partly from conditioning in a REALLY critical club/sorry for the umpteenth time....well my own fault,actually,no passing of the buck....but I tried-:).I have asked him to speak with a fellow hobbyist/reviewer,who is very "in the circle" of these things(yet I am positive the posters,here,are correct in what they hear as improvements). My ONLY concern,as it applies to me,is that reading the Walker Web pages,about the "demag effect" of the Talisman(I am now aware of better active products,but the "demag" effect is gained,though to a lesser degree, here),it clearly states(in the given reviews)that it "also" de-statics the LP(or CD,or whatever)as well. I want to make sure that it is NOT the de-static aspect,that is being heard by the folks here,or my friend,as an improvement,thinking it may be demagnification. You all know better than me,but it can't hurt to delve farther,for myself. Best. |
SirSpeedy, For a demagnetizer to work it must start close to the LP and be moved away slowwwly. Holding it at a constant distance wouldn't accomplish anything, and removing it quickly would actually re-magnetize and make things worse. De-magnetizing the motor inside your RCM might not be a good idea either. ;-) As I said before, in our setup it really takes zero time. I demag multiple LP's during a cleaning session while one is on the RCM soaking. No music time lost at all. |
How about the possibility of placing some kind of wand,or attachment to a record cleaning machine(easy DIY project)that can kill two birds with one stone(glue a Talisman,or magnets,or whatever)?Any thoughts?I'd love this,as I believe there is too much "tweakery" between LP play already!Of course that is just my own lazyness!! Thanks |
Pedrillo,I have no idea what unit he owns,but he did look seriously at the issue.The unit he got (for an apartment)is made in Germany,and cost him five hundred bucks.I must assume it is very good.The problem is that my friend lives on the 22nd story of a high rise.The dryness/static level is so bad,that just touching his equipment can lead to major static discharge,which the woofers don't like.He has solved the problem,with 24/7 humidifier usage,but since I know him since junior high school,I can guarantee you he will not keep a regular vigil.I DO keep pounding him to do so,since he has got magnificent equipment.He claims he is doing so now. Best(btw,your table project looks amazing). |
Sirspeedy, What humidifier does your friend own? If it is the ultrasonic type you will want to let him know that it leaves a calcium deposit on everything in the room if the machine is not maintained properly. My unit has a small container within the unit that gets filled with some kind of substance to reduce the calcium from spreading into the room. The best humidifier available is the one that has rotating disks that sit in a reservoir of water and a fan blowing the air around the disks to humidify the air. It is the venta I believe. Keeping our rooms humid also effects our health so it is an important issue. |
Well, that was the point I was trying to make. The Talisman and the Ionoclast do two separate operations. The post of Mapleshade's response read to me like they were saying that the devices that address magnetics didn't work as well as the Ionoclast. But the Ionoclast only addresses static. Don't use a screwdriver to drive a nail. |
Well,as of now my own plan of attack is set!Since I have to go over to my friend's home(who owns the Furutech)to pick up my Phantom,when it comes in,I will definitely bring some of my Lp's along.He has many of the same records,so we will do a controlled comparison. I will make sure he runs his humidifier continuously,and has had a safe seting for a few days. I am sure I will find the responses here consistent.BUT I still have the HOTS for the Furutech disc flattener,which of course is a different story,but "IT" floats my boat in the accessory arena. Best. |
Den ed with all due respect dont most manufacturers state that there product is the one you want, better that the rest. And give reasons to prove it. Its like you said you need to do your own trial and error, use and do what your ears like. Because like our finger prints i think we all hear a little differently. BTW i use both Talisman, and Ionoclast. Getting ready to have a lot of fun cleaning about 40 lps. yea right. My all have a very musical New Year |
That's always the best thing, try it for yourself. BTW, I'm not trying to refute any physicists or chemists. I certainly don't know exactly what is taking place. I am curious to know what these guys have to say about what may or may not be happening, but then they would have to consider the whole picture. Magnetics, statics, cartridge signal generation, what solution is used to color the vinyl, etc. It may be easier to explain what is happening with ceedees and other digital medium. |
Hi Dan_ed, Thanks for the compliment. As I mentioned, I have never tried any type of demagnitizing device on records or CD's for that matter. I can only pass on what a couple of people think that would have some degree of knowledge about the subject. I do, however, respect your opinion about this. You would certainly know more about the results that you are getting than someone who has not tried using one of these devices. With a little luck, the next time I'm at Music Direct I can get Mark or Michael to do a comparitive demonstration for me. Best regards to all. Jim Pendleton Osage Audio Products, LLC |
Hi Jim, Love those cleaning solutions! I always thought this demag concept was more audiophile snake-oil and never gave it any serious consideration. My mind was changed when Doug and Paul gave a demonstration of the results. I was impressed with the difference but still not willing to fork out even $200 for a Talisman. Thanks to some research by Paul, the device in use is under $100 and I think you can score bulk tape erasers for even less on e-bay. Again, if this were simply manipulating static charges I should be able to rub a demag'ed lp on my cat and make the playback change. Or simply sliding them in and out of their jackets in the frigid weather here in New England is plenty static enough to affect a change. But it doesn't. I should be able to hold the lp in my hands and touch a ground, or better yet touch the ground with the lp, and remove the effects. Again, it doesn't happen. I've not been doing this as long as Doug but I do agree that the effect of demag'ing does not seem to go away even after a few months. The static is always there, especially when the humidity levels are down around 20%. I don't believe that the static charges built up on vinyl are strong enough to have an effect on the magnetic field orientation, however small it is in an lp. Static charges are surface charges. I believe we all know how much better things sound when static is controlled. But all you need do is remove what ever static safeguards are in place and you will hear the detrimental effects. This is not true of the demag effects. You can disconnect the ground wire, not use the Zerostat (which, BTW, I don't use any anti-static device other than grouding), whatever. You will still hear the effect of demag'ing. It would also make sense that the strength of the demag'ing tool will decide how well, or maybe how long, the magnetic fields stay re-oriented after a treatment. Maybe why the Talisman needs to be used over and over. The claim is that the particles are in the pigment, not in the plastics. I'm curious if any of your contacts are familiar with the compounds used to color LPs? I'd be interested in hearing feedback from your contacts on the claims in the Furutech white paper. If we accept for the moment that the pigment is the key to this, I would expect that non-colored vinyl should not respond to the demag at all. I think I have a clear lp somewhere. If so I'll give it a try. |
Typical marketing spin from Mapleshade. "Don't buy their stuff, it doesn't work. Buy Mapleshade's stuff." I'm sorry, but if they're claiming demag'ing is manipulating static they are the one's who have missed the mark. Again, this does nothing for static. Your LPs will still attract dust. Mapleshade is stating that there thingy is meant to address static, which means you'll need to use it over and over again, just like a Zerostat. And, yes, I bet I can go back with a magnetizer and mess things up. That's just re-introducing a magnetic field to the vinyl. No different than adding or removing magnetism to a screwdriver. Go back a read the link I posted from Furutech. They claim to have measured the magnetic field in LPs. I demag, I hear an improvement. That's enough for me to accept that the theory has merit. I didn't say proved, just that it has merit. I'm suggesting to not buy any of the "audiophile" magnets. That's just spending more money needlessly to get the same results as a much cheaper demag'ing product. We do enough unnecessary spending in this hobby as it is. But in the end, it is your money. Try it, don't try it. But as Doug and Mothra caution, keep it well away from from your cartridge. |
This discussion is interesting enough that I've spoken to both a plastics chemist that I've know and worked with since 1979, and a physicist that I've know for over 20 years who has helped me with my product lines. They both indicate the same thing that Pierre Sprey has stated. Having never used any of the demagnitizing tools I can't comment on what they do based on personal experience. However, I've used the Ionoclast myself for several years. I bought it because my Milty quit working. I can say with a great deal of certainty that the Ionoclast is better than the Milty and is about half the price. Jim Pendleton Osage Audio Products, LLC |
I asked Mapleshade about this very question and am posting the very interesting answer Dear Stanley, Walker's Talisman, like all demagnetizing devices (i.e. Bedini, Furutech, etc.), attempts to address the same problem as our Ionoclast, that is, the problem of static build up. I used super-powerful demagnetizers on my CDs for years--until my experiments showed that the demagnetizers are only an indirect way of dealing with the static problem, rather than a direct antidote for a magnetic problem that turned out to be non-existent. Contrary to what the designers of demagnetizers usually claim, our experiments showed that there are NO significant ferrous (and therefore magnetizable) traces on CDs or LPs. So why do the demagnetizers have a slightly beneficial effect on the sound of CDs or LPs? Unbeknownst to their designers, they work because magnetic fields have the ability to move (and spread out) the "clumps" of static charge that build up on surface of the disc's plastic. It is the static (and its attendant electrostatic fields), not the non-existent magnetic charges, that degrade the sound of CDs and LPs. Note that a magnetic field has NO ability to neutralize a static charge. Magnetic fields can only force clumps of static to move--and, in the process of moving, to spread out and become less concentrated. That spreading out lowers and smooths out the local concentrations of the electrostatic field caused by the static clumps. But magnetic forces can never change the TOTAL static energy stored on a CD or LP. That's why the beneficial effects of demagnetizers are always fairly weak. To actually neutralize the static clumps on a disc can only be done by introducing charged particles (that is, ions) of the opposite charge. This is exactly how industrial static neutralizers (for instance, those on all electronic chip production lines) work: they blow streams of air charged with high concentrations of both plus and minus ions over the moving chips on the line. Any charged static clump on the chips will immediately start attracting ions of the opposite sign--and will keep on attracting them until the clump has totally neutralized itself with opposite charge ions. The air stream's neutralizing ions (i.e., charged molecules of air) are generated by electrodes creating high voltage (10,000 to 50,00 volt) discharges. That's exactly how our Ionoclast works: every trigger squeeze causes a small internal piezo-electric generator to generate a 30,000 to 50,000 volt spark discharge across the two electrodes in the tip of the Ionoclast, a plus discharge on the downstroke and a minus discharge on the release stroke. Thus, there's a sizable cloud of plus and minus ionized air molecules created around the spark gap--and, by moving the Ionoclast tip across the surface of the CD or LP, you trail this cloud over every static clump and the disc becomes 100% neutralized. The proof of the pudding is in the listening test. Take a CD that's charged with lots of static and listen to one minute of it. Then treat it with the Talisman or Bedini or Furutech. Listen again and you'll hear some improvement. Now neutralize it (both sides) with our Ionoclast. You'll hear at least an additional three times the improvement you heard with the Talisman! Curiously enough, if you Ionoclast-neutralize a CD, listen to it, then re-treat it afterwards with a Talisman or Bedini or Furutech, you'll hear that the demagnetizers make the re-treated disc sound just a bit WORSE than the Ionoclast-neutralized disc. I am baffled to find an explanation for this, but the effect is quite repeatable. If you need further clarification or detail, feel free to call me at 410 867-7543. Pierre On Jan 4, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Stanley Green wrote: Does your Ionocast and the Walker Talisman do the same thing? |
SirSpeedy, I have used the Talisman. It works, though probably not as well as the (more powerful) Furutech. I used it as instructed by Walker and described by Rushton. It would indeed work just as well away from the TT and I agree that would be safer. Good suggestion. I now use an AC-powered machine tools demagnifier. It's vastly more powerful than a Talisman and notably more effective too. Probably similar to a Furutech, since it's the same technology. Mine's a bit tricky to use and it would destroy a cartridge in a heartbeat, so I'm reluctant to recommend it on a public forum. As Mothra said, you don't want to use these high powered magnetic devices anywhere near a cartridge (or other components). We demag our discs in another room, well away from the system. It's no hardship since with a field this strong they apparently need treating only once, as Furutech also claims. We demag before cleaning so there's really no time spent at all. I demag several discs while one is on the RCM. Doug |
Sirspeedy, the Talisman comes with Lloyd Walker's satisfaction guarantee. If you're not satisfied with what it does for you, send it back to Lloyd within 30 days in original condition and he'll refund your purchase price. (I recommend buying directly from Walker Audio, payment by check only.) Not much downside risk here. As to use, I use it with the LP on the turntable and follow Lloyd's instructions (posted on his web site), keeping the Talisman always in my left hand well away from the cartridge. . |
OK,I'm getting sold on the Talisman(much less money,and real estate than the Furutech,which my friend still loves btw). A few questions on it...Doug,do you use the Talisman?If so,do you use it away from turntable?I don't like the idea of usage near my cartridge! As to the Furutech,my own experience was specifically my own set of tastes,and on some discs there was a definite improvement.The personal friend of mine owning it has major static issues in his apartment during cold weather.No amount of dehumidifying in room,or any type of audio accessories has helped this.This could very well have impinged the Furutech performance,in my case,and I am in NO way trying to voice anything other than an opinion about the device. At the asking price,and especially with the amount of room it takes up,it just does not interest me(that's just me). YET based on my regard for some posters here,I must look really hard at the Talisman,as long as it takes up less space than a tennis court,AND it appears to cost about as much as a nice two hour indoor block of court time.What's not to like? BTW,would this negate the need for my RD-2 CD demag unit? Thanks. |
Interesting that we know that 'demagging does not add anything to an LP that would cause brightness', for example, but we don't know why it works and, again, speculate that the 'demagging' reduces stray magnetic fields on materials that can't possibly have magnetic fields, not withstanding the claims made by the suppliers of the demagnetizers, that rust has magnetic properties. Has anybody attempted to measure the 'stray magnetic' field? Use an unshielded compass. If it isn't deflected, then the magnetic field, if it exists, is too small to make any impression on the magnetic cartridge. If it were and we can't detect it, then why doesn't the earth's magnetic field disturb the magnetic crtridge - it is stronger, after all. Of course, then, perhaps the orientation of the cartridge relative to the earth's magnetic field should be audible. I haven't heard any difference in sound when my turntable is oriented N-S or E-W. Perhaps you have Dan_ed or Dougdeacon? Call me skeptical. Bob P. |
Our experiences match those of Rushton, Dan_Ed and James1969. Our LP's reveal greater dynamics, extended HF's with less distortion and a markedly lower sound floor (more low level musical detail, ambient space information, etc.) This has been consistent across hundreds of LP's. CD/SACD/DVD-A sound is also improved. The gray scale and color rendering on DVD's are measurably more accurate, so the PQ on most discs is visibly improved. (Demagging can make it easier to see digital "airbrushing" surrounding some CGI images. As with any resolution enhancement, flaws in poorly constructed source material become more apparent even as the quality of good source material improves.) IME demagging does not involve or affect static electricity at all. The Zerodust is still needed for that. The improvements with the Walker Talisman are subtle, as Rushton reported, but always audible - although you do need to demag before each play. The improvement with stronger, AC-powered demagnifiers is notably greater and repeat treatments seem unnecessary to date (~6 months), much as claimed by Furutech. If an LP sounds "bright" after demagging, as SirSpeedy heard in some cases, I suggest there's something out of whack in the playback system. Demagging does not add anything to an LP that would cause brightness. All it does is reduce stray magnetic fields that can interfere with the native magnetic fields in the cartridge. Distorting those fields alters the behavior of the cartridge away from what the designer intended. |
I can vouch for the DVD playback. I use my RD-2 for ever DVD that goes into my DVD player. The picture has color becomes much cleaner/less noise if you will. Bulk erasers was such the item to have during the tape days. Imagine stumbling upon that as time and formats that come and go. Granted, the original use of the device was counter to how it is used in this thread/reference. |
Has nothing to do with static electricity. You still need a Zerostat for that. Furutech claims in their white paper that there are enough ferrous particles in the pigment used to color the vinyl. http://www.furutech.com/news/FURUTECHdeMagNews2006.htm You certainly don't need to spend $1800 or even $200 to get the benefit of demagnetizing. I've heard from some folks who have good success using a bulk tape eraser. I've been through about 50 different LP's and I've yet to find one that did not sound noticeable better. It is like lifting a veil. It works on CD's as well. I haven't tried it on a DVD but I hear from others that it does improve the picture as well. |
