Magnepan LRS compared to the .7 or the 1.7i ?

     I've only read the very good reviews on all the recent new smaller Magnepan models but wanted to mention that any pair combined with a 4-sub distributed bass array system, like the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra dba systems for $2500, would result in hi-end performance at a bargain total price.

     I believe even 1-2 good quality subs combined with a pair of these smaller Magnepans would offer very good full-range performance but I'm fairly certain a 4-sub AK or custom dba combined with a pair would provide excellent full-range performance.  
     I know 4-sub dbas combined with Magnepans work extremely well together because I use an AK Debra 4-sub dba with a pair of the older and larger 2.7QR Magnepans in my combo 2-ch music and ht system.   
    All Magnepans seem to have excellent mid-range, treble and imaging qualities but tend to lack deep bass detail, power, dynamics and impact.  The proven 4-sub dba system concept provides these missing bass qualities and does so seamlessly with virtually any pair of speakers, but especially well with fast planar-dynamic and electrostatic panel types.
     I'm seriously considering trying a pair of these smaller panels in my system since, although my larger 2.7QRs still sound great, they are now over 30 yrs old and I'm very curious if this would be an upgrade in my system performance.

Tim

Hello kingbarbuda,

     In my experience, it's very difficult to integrate a single sub, no matter the quality or price, seamlessly and well with Magnepans.  You'll get more bass but it won't be the same fast, smooth, tight and articulate bass that Magnepans naturally produce although with significantly limited authority, extension and impact, with the exceptions of the top models. 
     The bass from single subs with a large driver typically sounds slow, lagging and disconnected from the fast, smooth and detailed response of planar-magnetic panel speakers producing the remaining frequency range because a single large point source bass driver lacks the speed and agility of a planar -magnetic panel transducer. A single sealed sub with a smaller driver or a dipole sub are better matches but lack the bass authority, extension and impact.

     2 sealed subs with smaller drivers or 2 dipole subs are a better match for Magnepans.  Based on personal experience, however, the Audio Kinesis Swarm and Debra distributed bass array systems using four relatively small subs, each 1ft W x1ft D x2ft H and 44 lbs, with 10" drivers are definitely the best bass system solutions I'm aware of for use with planar-dynamic and electrostatic panel type speakers.  
     The key features of a dba system's effectiveness being the presence of 4 separate subs and their rather random positioning within the room.  This means that an effective custom dba system can be created using virtually any 4 subs an individual prefers, for example 4 larger ported or sealed subs with larger 12-15" drivers if even more bass authority is desired.
 The bass produced by a 4-sub dba system has the speed, smoothness,agility and detail required to blend seamlessly with the fast, smooth, agile and detailed sound performance characteristics of planar-magnetic and electrostatic panel speakers while also producing the bass authority, extension and impact smaller Magnepans lack. 

Tim 

Here’s a review of the LRS from Steve Guttenberg/Audiophiliac from youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqchci3AhU

     He does talk about the differences between the LRS/.7/1.7 models, mainly stating the LRS is Magnepan’s ’appetizer speaker’ and , at $650/pr, an excellent and affordable way to experiencing the open, articulate, transparent and palpable sound with excellent but limited bass response. He mentions  how moving up the Magnepan model line just gets you more of this sound, beginning with the .7 and 1.7 which he describes as being taller, wider, more expensive versions of the LRS that sound warmer and have a bit more bass.
     He also discusses the difficulty of integrating subs with Magnepans, stating he really gave up trying to integrate subs with them when he last tried when he owned a pair of 3.6s. I understand his frustration after experimenting for a few years, at first with a single sub and later with dual subs, trying to integrate the bass seamlessly with my older 2.7QR 3-way Magnepans.
     Changing from a stereo class AB Aragon 4004 MKII amp (400 watts/ch at 4 ohms) to a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D mono-blocks (1,200 watts/ch at 4 ohms) significantly improved the bass quality, power and dynamics of the 2.7QR’s rather large 623 square inch quasi-ribbon bass sections but the bass extension is limited to about 36 Hz.
      I completely understand why Magnepan owners love the performance of their speakers, regardless of model, and are willing to sacrifice powerful, extended and dynamic bass response rather than do without the excellent performance of them from the mid-bass on up as well as the exceptional sound stage imaging.
     But I’ve also discovered that experiencing even just most of the bottom octave (16-32 Hz) on music and ht is immensely enjoyable mainly because I perceive both as more realistic. I’m not a Bass-Head but I admit I enjoy the bass weight and power that viscerally involves your whole body in the music or ht.
     My main intention of posting on this thread is to spread the word that there is a proven method, based on scientific research and psycho-acoustic principles, to seamlessly integrate powerful, extended, dynamic and articulate bass response with the excellent frequency response of fast Magnepan planar-magnetic and electrostatic panel speakers.
     I’m a bit amazed that there’s not more awareness of how well 4-sub distributed bass array systems perform, especially on high quality audio sites like Audiogon and Audio Asylum. I find this lack of awareness of dbas to be unfortunate and perplexing. Here’s a link to an Absolute Sound review of the Audio Kinesis Swarm dba system that I think describes its performance and benefits very accurately:

www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

     I don’t want to be a distraction to the main subject of this thread out of politeness but also because I’m very interested in the comparisons and performance reviews of these 3 least expensive Magnepan models.
     I’m very intrigued by the the overall system sound performance prospects of combining the excellent performance of the Magnepan true ribbon tweeters for treble and the quasi-ribbons for the mid-bass and mid-range with the only qualities I suspect are lacking in all of these models preventing state of the art performance; excellent powerful, dynamic, articulate, extended and seamlessly integrated deep bass performance that I’m certain a dba system would provide.
     While it could be true that my words describing how exceptionally well the dba concept actually works may have convinced no one, I truly believe even a brief dba audition would likely convince virtually everyone.

Enjoy,
Tim

Hello kingbarbuda,

     I completely agree with you that subs are hard to synchronize and really match up with Maggies.  It seems like we've both been disappointed in the past trying to integrate them seamlessly.  
     You threw in the towel with your 1.7is, professional audio reviewer Steve Guttenberg has given up trying with his 3.6Rs and it's likely at least many hundreds of other users of all the various Magnepan models also have become frustrated trying to integrate subs and given up.  
     Heck, I was on the verge of throwing in the towel trying to use subs with my 2.7QRs when I, thankfully, decided to give it another try by buying the $2,800 Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system on a free 28-day in-home trial basis.  I remained skeptical right up to the point of hearing it for the 1st time in my room and system.

     This is an honest to goodness true story of that 1st audition about 4 yrs ago: My buddy and I had just spent about 3 hrs optimally positioning all 4 subs and wiring them up.  We were both a bit tired and resting when I remembered there was a Blu-ray of the WWII movie Fury still in the player.  So I hit play on the remote to see how it sounded on my now 5.4 surround ht system (the 2.7QRs, a CC3 center, 2 in-ceiling Infinity rear surrounds and the new 4 dba subs).  I was still skeptical after a couple of movie preview ads had played but they had little to no bass content.
      Then a preview of the movie Whiplash came on that contained a prolonged and dynamic full-kit drum solo . This was very well recorded and was being played back as 24 bit/96 Khz hi-res PCM format through my Oppo 105 at a med/high volume level.  The entire drum kit seemed like it was actually physically in the room, centered along the font wall of my 23' x 16' x 8' room.   The drum solo was so exceptionally realistic, with bass that was felt as well as heard, as it built in momentum to the point of both of us being totally convinced there was a drum kit being played vigorously at the front of the room, without even the faintest hint it may be a recording. When the drum solo ended with a flourish and abrupt stop, it left my friend and I just staring at each other wide eyed in amazement. 
      No doubt, some readers will believe I'm exaggerating but I'm not very concerned since I really don't think I can overstate how well this dba concept actually performs in my system on music and ht.  In fact, the only valid criticism I or anyone could make is that my AK Debra dba only has flat bass response down to 20 Hz at 113 db, which means it can't completely reproduce the lowest octave of 16-32 Hz.  But there's always the option to build a custom 4-sub dba system with all or a few of the subs being larger and capable of flat bass response down to 16 Hz or even lower.  I'm unaware of any recorded content containing bass this deep, however, so I'm currently satisfied with flat bass extension down to 20 Hz. and only hearing/feeling most of the bottom octave.
       I also understand your satisfaction with the bass performance of your 1.7is after mounting them on Mye stands, adding the jumper and fuse, changing to Bryston amps and selling your subs.  Your 1.7is 3-way Magnepans only have bass extension down to 40 Hz +/- 3 db from  a quasi-ribbon bass area of 442 square inches compared to my  older 2.7QRs 3-way Magnepans that only have bass extension down to 34 Hz +/- 3 db  from a quasi-ribbon bass area of 620 square inches.  This indicates to me that we both likely experience very similar high quality bass response levels from our speakers.  If so, I clearly understand how you'd be satisfied with the bass performance of your speakers without the aid of subs since I was almost satisfied myself.   
      But the truth is that most would probably consider our speakers by themselves as a bit attenuated in the deep bass, especially by those having large point source cone type woofer drivers in their large floor standing speakers and those using 1 or more subs. 
      I believe that almost anyone, including you and I, would consider the bass quality of our Magnepan speakers as being exceptionally high but somewhat limited in bass extension, dynamics and impact.  My main point is that I'm certain that almost anyone, including you and I, would consider the bass quality of our Magnepans with a dba system as being very close to state of the art with good deep bass extension, high levels of detail, seamless integration, powerful dynamics and impact along with a seemingly effortless quality that is perceived as amazingly life-like and natural.
        I'll conclude this book by noting that we're unlikely to realize there's missing bass content if our system can't even reproduce it, sometimes we just don't know what we don't know and you can audition an AK Swarm or Debra dba system free in your home for about a month.  It'll take you less than a day to set it up and know I speak the truth, which leaves about 29 days to return it if you're unsatisfied.  I know I'll never be buying another sub in my lifetime. 

Tim 

Hello jamesmagnot,

This guy’s review made you decide to buy a pair of LRS?
https://youtu.be/DxZvzWEf-m8

I’ve not yet heard the LRS in person but have been reading all the reviews I can find to learn more about them. This guy’s review was the most unusual one I’ve read or viewed thus far.
It could be my fault to a degree, but I didn’t gain as much knowledge from this review as most I’ve read and seen. However, I’m not going to take all the blame for this guy’s failure to paint a coherent picture of the LRS’s sound quality. Sure, he describes these speakers as a great bargain, sounding great, not harsh or bright at all and able to create a 3 dimensional soundstage image with great "death", I think he meant depth. Okay, I already use Magnepans and that all makes sense to me.
But then he delves into describing the bass as "sandy"? Sandy? Did he just say the bass was sandy? Abrasive? Scratchy? Sandy, wtf? Come’on man, sandy? I think he means ’dry’ but that’s an extremely poor adjective for describing the bass response of a speaker, too.
I want to make it clear to you that I definitely don’t think you made a mistake by ordering a pair of the LRS. I’m just surprised this guy’s review convinced you to do it.
I also wanted to make sure you don’t have unreasonably high expectations of their bass response. As I stated, I own an older pair of Magnepan 2.7QR speakers but have never heard the LRS. The 2.7 are fairly large (6’ x 2’) 3-ways with a large (625 sq.in.) dipole planar-magnetic bass section and have a rated bass extension down to 35 Hz. By comparison, the LRS are fairly small (4’ x 14.5") 2-ways with a combined midrange and bass dipole planar-magnetic section and have a rated bass extension down to 50 Hz.
I would describe my 2.7s as bass shy or bass limited even though the bass they do produce is of a very high quality. I can understand if some would consider their bass sufficiently good not to need sub augmentation.
Based solely on their rated bass extension of only 50 Hz, however, I seriously doubt I would understand if some would consider the LRS bass as sufficiently good not to need sub augmentation. I think I would need to be English, or have no knowledge of the importance of the added impact and realism that high quality bass response has on musical and HT audio reproduction, to consider not utilizing a well implemented sub system with the LRS. I’m suspecting the LRS may best be described by some as ’bass starved.
What are the options for attaining better bass response when using the LRS? Here are my suggestions in order of effectiveness:

1. Buy an Audio Kinesis Swarm 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system for $3,200. Here’s an Absolute Sound review:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

Or, buy the almost identical Audio Kinesis DEBRA 4-sub DBA system for $2,990:

www.jamesromeyn.com/old-pages/home-audio-gear/dsa-1-0-distributed-subwoofer-array-5-pieces-4k-usd/

     I use the AK DEBRA system with my Magnepans and the bass is near state of the art in my room for both 2-ch music and HT. Of course, the downside is that both of these DBAs cost about 5 times the price of a pair of the LRS. But this is the ideal solution and the sound quality performance level of the combination will rival the top Magnepan models and many other speakers costing significantly more.


2. Buy a pair of very good quality subs of your choice and use the ’crawl method’ (google it) to optimally position them for about $1,000/pr. or more.

     This will provide excellent bass response quality and seamless integration with the LRS, just like either of the 4-sub DBAs, but the sota bass quality performance will be limited to a single specified listening sweet spot position rather than throughout your entire room that the DBA solution provides. I’m recommending a pair of subs rather than a single sub, no matter the quality or cost of that single sub, because a pair will perform about twice as well as a single sub in virtually any given room. A pair of subs will provide much better bass integration with the LRS and provide superior bass impact and dynamics than a single sub.
     The truth will remain that a 4-sub DBA systems will perform about twice as well as a pair of subs but you’ll have the option to upgrade to a 4-sub DBA system in the future by just adding an additional pair of subs.


3. Learn to accept the poor bass response of the LRS and the reduced natural and realistic musical bass qualities that entails.



Tim

jl35,

     Excellent, what amp are you using?

Tim

jl35,

     Cool, I've heard good things about the Gato 150, good combo.

Enjoy,
  Tim

Hey jl35,

     Thanks for the info, I've got a couple friends who may be very interested in knowing that.

Tim

Hello rankaudio,

       I don't totally disagree with you about the planar asylum being a cluster but I can cut to the chase for you:
       No matter which Magnepans one decides to purchase, they're going to sound better with a single good quality sub, about twice as good with dual good quality subs and near state of the art with a good quality 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system.  I make this claim solely based on accumulated knowledge and pertinent personal experience.

Best wishes,
     Tim

Hello Angel,

    Excellent! I'm glad you're digging it so much.

    Wow, I had no idea you were using an all tube setup with a Bob Latino Dynaco ST-70 amp, KT88 or EL34? Stock tubes? It's amazing that 40 w/ch can drive the .7 so well. I'd love to hear your combo.  Very cool!

Enjoy,
Tim

Hello rankaudio,

     I'm glad you're so pleased with the tubes driving the Maggies but there's still quite a bit of bass on your sources that you're not hearing.  Humans are capable of hearing bass tones down to as deep as 20Hz and we're unable to determine where bass sounds are coming from when they're at about 80 Hz or lower.  
     Because of these facts, almost all recorded music is summed to mono from about 80 Hz and lower while only extending down to 20 Hz.  Only some hi-resolution recordings even record bass below 20 Hz, which is bass that cannot be heard but can be felt.  Fortunately, there are very few musical instruments that are able to produce bass below 20 Hz (pipe organs are the only ones I'm aware of) and most mass market recordings filter out all frequencies below 20 Hz.  
    The Magnepan .7 speakers are rated to have bass output down to 50 Hz and the REL T5i subs are rated to have bass output down to 32 Hz.  So, with the subs installed you'll extend the bass from 50 Hz down to 32 Hz, which you will likely perceive as significantly deeper bass response, bass impact and viscerally more realistic and enjoyable.  With your current choice of subs and main speakers, however, I want you to be aware that you'll not be hearing any of the deep bass tones on your recordings from 20-32 Hz.  
     This omission can be significant in the realism perceived and the visceral bass impact heard and physically felt, the degree to which this will be missing is largely dependent on the type of music you are listening to. I find that the accurate reproduction of the deepest bass octave and bass dynamics results in my very realistic perception that the musicians are in my room or that I'm listening live in person at the recording venue. I listen mainly to a wide variety of rock, acoustic and jazz music.  
      Nevertheless, I believe your combination of midrange and treble frequencies being reproduced by tube electronics driving the .7speakers from 50 Hz on up and the bass frequencies being reproduced by the pair of solid state amps in the REL T5i subs driving their 8" woofers from 32 to somewhere between 50 and 60 Hz, is capable of being a high quality system provided the speakers and subs are positioned and configured properly.  
      My recommendation is to continue to operate the .7s full-range, position each REL sub sequentially using 'the crawl method' and then adjust the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls on the subs to attain optimum bass response and a seamless integration with the .7s in your room.  Whether you perceive the bass as sufficiently deep, accurate, detailed, natural and realistic for very enjoyable listening experiences is a matter you will need to determine.  
      As I stated, I really enjoy the accurate reproduction of the lowest octave in my system.  But this may not be as enjoyable or important to you.  If it's not, your current system should prove very satisfying to you. If you prefer deeper, more impactful and realistic bass, I'd suggest utilizing a pair of larger subs with larger drivers and more powerful amps, the $3K Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra 4-sub DBA system, or even a custom 4-sub DBA with your subs of choice with 10" or larger drivers.


Best wishes and enjoy,
           Tim

    I agree, cost is important and it's basically a matter of options and choices.  
    I think highly of REL subs in general, but my main concern for Angel/ rankaudio is whether a pair of REL T5i subs specifically are the best option for his system since they only have bass extension down to 32 Hz. My thought is a pair of subs with bass extension down closer to 20 Hz would be a more capable and enjoyable pairing with his high quality .7 speakers. There's a lot of old and newavailable recordings with musical content between 20-32 Hz that Angel simply wouldn't be even hearing.
    It would be Angel's choice as to whether he wanted to use a pair of larger and more expensive REL subs or use another brand's pair of very good quality subs that would also be a more capable and enjoyable pairing with his .7 speakers, but cost considerably less.  
    I'd suggest a pair of SVS SB-1000 subs or comparable model HSU subs would provide high quality bass with deeper extension that may be an equally capable but more economical bass solution for his system. They'd be in the $1000-1,200/pair range and offer free 30-day in-home trial periods, so very low financial risk.

Tim