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Maggie 3.6R performance dilemma..

Maggie 3.6R performance dilemma..

Hi,

I hope I'm not abusing this forum with too many Magnepan posts; this is my third post in as many weeks!

I have used the forum as a research tool, reading through older threads to see what others are doing with their Maggie's. I've implemented some of what I've read, wherever possible, but so far I haven't been successful in extracting what I believe these speakers have to offer.

So I'm hoping for some new insights into the 3.6R's and also wanting to share some observations that may (or may not) be useful to potential Maggie owners.

First, I've rearranged things in my room a little to decrease the cubic feet of the listening space. Some previous feedback suggested that my room may be too big. The speakers now operate in a space as follows:

48'X28'X10' The 10' ceiling height is directly above the speakers, however this is a gallery and approximately 4 feet forward from the speakers the room opens into a cathedral ceiling which peaks at 28'.

I have the speakers on the long wall, but cannot place them centrally on the wall. They are 12' apart (centre to centre) with approximately 9' to the side wall from the right speaker and 27' to the left side wall.
They are 6.2 feet from the front wall (based on the Cardas rule of ceiling height times 0.618) 18 feet from the listening chair with 3 feet behind the chair to a very reflective rear wall. (I will try to dampen this with drapes in the near future).
Toe-in angle is low at about 5-7 degrees. I have the tweeters on the outside so prefer to keep a small toe-in angle to have the tweeters further from my ear than the mid/bass, as suggested in the Magnepan manual.
Naturally I have experimented with positioning. I have tried variations in all directions but have not attained what I consider to be acceptable sound for reasons to follow.

The basic plan on buying these speakers (used) was to play them at low volumes with my existing Conrad Johnson CAV 50 and spend a week or two trying more powerful SS amps from local dealers, then to buy a new pre/power or integrated, with a $4500 budget.

I tend to play jazz, acoustic, some classical (nothing too brutal) at louder than normal levels. I haven't used an SPL meter, so I don't have an actual level recorded, but opinions of the occasional guest tend to suggest that I listen on the loud side.

I first tried a Belles 250i integrated. My local dealer, who is very experienced in high-end and seemed to be familiar with the 3.6's suggested the modestly rated (125 watts into 8 ohms) Belles based on it's higher than normal current delivery (about 25 amps if I remember correctly) and it's 'musicality'. He advised against the Rotel RB1090 which has higher output, but is far less 'musical' (his words).

The Belles was clearly an accomplished integrated, but for my tastes way too bright and forward. I tried to tame the brightness by moving the speakers....but with little effect.

Next I tried a McIntosh MC 6500 integrated. This had some appeal, sounding more tube like and warmer. However, it quickly ran out of steam, with the powerguard warning indicators flashing on and off even at modest volume levels. It also lacked transparency, didn't image very well and just sounded compressed - obviously lacking power.

Feeling somewhat inclined toward persue the Mac sound for it's warmer presentation, I thought the new MC 252 power amp with autoformers might deliver, given it's 200 watts into 2,4,8 ohms and its better load handling capability with the autoformers.

Well, it sounded better, more dynamic, more transparent....however, it cut-out completely several times on louder passages, the PowerGuard indicators locked in the 'on' position until the signal was removed and the amps allowed to 'cool'.

I then considered trying the MC602 with 600 watts per channel, but now I'm up at $8k without a pre-amp!!

So, to take a breather I rigged up my old CJ CAV50, and to be blunt, despite its inability to play loud, it just sounds so much more musical than any of the other amps I've tried. It also does play quite loud. Almost as loud as the MC6500, without the significant fall-off in performance when overstretched. It also demonstrates to me that tube watts are really bigger than SS watts!! (LOL, yes I know a watt is a Joule/sec and can't be stretched or made any bigger with a tube - but I'll be darned if they don't 'sound' louder!)

So, I'm now hell bent on staying with tubes.

I'm looking at maybe some Cary V12 monoblocks or a VT100 MkII.....advice here would be greatly appreciated....do they have enough power for 3.6R's in a larger than average space?

Lastly, and perhaps most important, with the 4 amps that I've used so far, I'm missing some aspects of the sound presentation that I particularly enjoyed from my old monitors and from other speakers that I've used in the past, including Quad ESL57's. I don't know if this is due to the amp/power deficiencies, the room, or is inherent in the speaker presentation.

All 4 amps that I've used have been unable to open the soundstage width beyond the limits of the speakers. When I read about 'wall to wall' soundstage, well it just isn't happening, and I find that surprising and disappointing. I don't expect a 45' wide stage, but perhaps 4 or5 feet beyond the speakers ought to be attainable on some recordings? My QLN monitors opened a wider stage than I've heard from the Maggie’s. Also, using closely miked acoustic music, small jazz ensembles etc (The Steve Green Trio disc and Diana Krall live in Paris spring to mind), the musicians are gathered tightly within the space between the speakers, at times sounding like they are sitting in each others laps! It just isn't recreating the dimension of a live recording as I expected, given the parameters and dimensions of my room. Incidentally, I haven't moved the speakers since I tried the MC252, and on the Steve Green Trio recording, both guitars sounded overlapped, like the players were standing one behind the other. Now with my CJ CAV 50, there is a little separation between the two, not enough for it to sound realistic, but better than with the Mac.

So how can this just be a function of underpowered amplification? Is it something much more fundamental?....The stage width sounded no different on the MC252 than it does on my CAV 50....200watts versus 45watts, but the 45 watter improves separation and imaging within the confines of the stage. The 125w Belles probably opened the stage a little wider than the MC252, but barely noticeable.

To add to my dilemma, there is virtually no discernable lower octaves on most recordings, I mean no bass. Listening to Clapton's Unplugged, the bass impact on the track 'Old Love' is completely missing, as are other bass lines that I'm familiar with on this recording.

Do I have the speakers positioned incorrectly?. I read about Maggie’s needing room to breath, well this is a fairly large room and they ought to be working much better than they are. My main fault so far is that I haven't been very systematic about moving the speakers in small increments until I find the optimum position. I've tried them at 4' from the front wall where bass seemed no better, so I brought them out to the Cardas recommended position at 6.18 feet. I've slid them back and forth a little from that position but without any positive effect.
Are they too far apart?....when I reduce the 12 feet centre to centre to 10' it reduces the stage width, which goes against what I'm trying to achieve. It warms the tonal balance slightly, given the added centre fill energy, but it doesn't improve bass response or stage width.

Does anyone have a setup procedure that works well with planars? Is it worthwhile even bothering with fine adjustment until I have a more powerful amp in place?

The bottom line is: I'm concerned about spending big money on high powered tube amps, if what I'm hearing is basically the sonic signature of these particular speakers, and other deficiencies that cannot be overcome with my room parameters.
After all, I could ditch the 3.6 and go with a higher efficiency box speaker and keep my CJ amp, and only have to spend another $2,000, perhaps less?

I'm sure that I cannot be the first person having a largely negative experience with the 3.6, though I suspect many people try to use these in rooms that are way too small.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to a way forward that would provide me with a sound that:-

Is non-fatiguing at higher SPL's
Is realistic in its presentation of stage width and depth.
Is realistic in its imaging ability and it's placement of performers on the stage, with realistic separation between performers.
Is realistic in reproducing mid bass and lower bass frequencies, not 'earth shattering' bass, just tuneful bass that underpins the music and adds to the realism of the reproduced event.
Is perhaps slightly warmer than most SS fans would like, with a little over-emphasis of the mids (tube-like bloom that I'm used to hearing with my little CJ integrated).

My other equipment is as follows:
Audio Alchemy DDS Pro Transport
Audio Alchemy Dti Pro 32 signal enhancer/jitter remover.
Musical Fidelity Upsampling DAC set at 192khz
Also tried a Monarchy Audio 18B DAC with volume pot to drive the Mac 252 directly from the DAC.
Various cables of reasonable grade, Acoustic Zen, Flatwire Twin etc (I'm a John Dulavy supporter and believe that wire is wire is wire is....)

I apologize for this long post. However, I’m certain that many people use these posts as a reference when sourcing new equipment, improving the sound of their existing rigs, or just reading for general amusement. So the more information the better, in my opinion.
It seems I'm one of the few that (so far) isn't getting what they expected from the Magnepan speakers, but I'm open and receptive to any ideas and input that others may have.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards

Rooze
128x128rooze

Showing 6 responses by rooze

rooze's avatar
rooze OP
566 posts
 
Hi guy's, go easy on me! I have enough stress (LOL).

KF - I do understand what you say about needing more power, but there are people using their maggies with 100 watt tubes that say they are getting great results, and I tried a 200 watt SS that took two people to carry it into the room and it craps out at modest volumes!.....
Also, you seemed to thing that I like to play at low volumes when the exact opposite is true. I play too loud if anything. I appreciate your comments on positioning, I WILL get these babies to play right....soon, I promise!...but I can't guarantee that I won't be using tubes...they just sound so right to my ears!

Thanks again Eldartford, I can't ask for more than consistant feedback/advice, and I surely have had that.

Rathbone...I mentioned that the ceiling directly above the speakers is 10 feet high, but then further into the room opens up to a cathedral ceiling, so I tried the Cardas rule which put's them 6' into the room. Also, this is about as far as I can go for traffic reasons....I just can't do the triangle setup that people talk about. The room has a staircase and two doors that stop me from sitting any closer. I would have to move the seat for listenting then move it back again. Even with a larger room there are certain constraints that I have to work around.
Anyway, I seemed to have opened up Pandora's box here, but I'm taking it all in good humor!
Now I'm going home to kick the cat...
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
566 posts
 
Thanks again to everyone who has taken the trouble to post responses, and also to those people who emailed me privately.
There are a couple of points that I wanted to revisit, particularly in response to Sean's post which was very informative.
Sean, I respect your input very much, I've followed your comments in other posts and clearly you have a lot of experience and are able to articulate it well to the benefit of the rest of us.

Firstly, in my humble opinion, the equipment is a necessary evil that often gets in the way of what this hobby is really about - music.
I've also been involved long enough in this 'hobby' to know that it is mostly about compromise. There is no rig out there that does everything well, each component has weaknesses regardless of price, the question is: 'are their strengths so appealing that we can live with their weaknesses?'
When I bought the Maggie's I knew I was getting on a bit of a roller-coaster ride that might not end up where I expected. However, my previous experience with Quad's, Apogees and ML's, plus what I have read in the audio magazines and on Audiogon, made me believe that these speakers had strengths that would appeal to me and that I could live with their weaknesses. So; 'earth-shattering' bass is not something that I'm trying to achieve, nor is 'extreme' levels of volume.
The 'dilemma' that I referred at the start of my post is that I haven't been able to unveil the strengths of these speakers in my listening room, and I listed some of what I expected from the 3.6R's in my first post in this thread.

Where Sean comments that I am not listening to peoples advice, well that just isn't the case. I have tried accommodating these speakers to the detriment of room aesthetic by moving the seating around and moving the speakers into positions that are not best suited to the room layout - as suggested in various posts. I've tried most of what has been suggested about placement, (given room constraints) and in fact, yesterday evening made some good progress which I will touch on in a moment. Also, please note that not all comments that have been posted are of a consistent nature, as one would expect given the diversity of input and the fact that no two listening rooms are identical. On the previous post I made about a week ago it was suggested that I move my chair back toward the rear wall, effectively putting more distance between chair and speakers, whereas the most common suggestion has been to close the distances down. Anyone who has tried speakers against the short wall of a rectangular room knows that there are certain sonic gains to be had from sitting quite far back from the speaker. Conversely, using a good pair of monitors in the nearfield for example, provides sonic virtues that cannot be achieved when the seating position is some distance from the speaker. And so it goes around.
My question was aimed at bringing out other peoples experiences so that I could perhaps benefit from an arrangement that was not a typical equilateral triangle arrangement but might lend itself to my particular room layout. In my previous home I had great results from monitors on the long wall of a 30X13 room, where I used the setup method suggested on the Audio Physic website, which worked really well for nearfield listening with monitors. When I moved to my present home a few weeks ago, it was clear from the room layout that I needed to have an arrangement whereby the speakers would be between 16' and 25' from the listening chair, and not a nearfield arrangement. So perhaps I should have researched speakers that work well in this arrangement, rather than assuming that the Magnepan’s would work out. However, I do own a pair of Apogee Caliper Sig II's that worked very well firing down a long room with a seat approx 17-20' feet away (I can't remember the exact dimensions of that room).

Anyway, on to the good news. I rearranged the room somewhat last evening and have an arrangement that is starting to sound really good (Hallelujah, I hear you all shout in unison!!)
I moved the chair a couple feet toward the speakers and the speakers a foot toward the chair, then separated the speakers by another 18" to move closer to the goal of an equilateral triangle layout. Though not quite equal on all sides it is as close as I can get given room constraints and the wife factor. I also received my new cable terminations yesterday and was able to install bi-wire cables which also helped. I’m getting a real ‘holographic’ image that has widened by more than the extra 18” I have between the speakers.

Finally I am starting to appreciate these fine speakers for what they are. I am hopeful that with a suitable choice of amplifier, some work on cables and power cords, and the impending installation of a dedicated power supply, I can get the sound that I initially set out to achieve.
(Sean, I take onboard your cable comments. I'm an Electrical Engineer by trade, and spent 3 years developing cabling systems for use on hi-tech printing equipment that were notoriously prone to EMI and RFI issues. My comments regarding cabling were ambiguous at best. What I meant to say was that there is, in my opinion, a certain standard of cable {components, design and assembly} that can be attained without spending thousands of dollars. Cables are often acting as tone controls, mostly due to their capacitance, particularly with bi-wire setups. If you happen to find a cable that effects the 'tone' of your system to your liking, then it might be that you can justify their expense. You could however recreate the electrical characteristics of a high price cable in a low cost design, or stumble upon similar characteristics in a low cost design.)

Anyway, again I thank everyone for their input in helping me out with my new Maggie's!!


rooze's avatar
rooze OP
566 posts
 
Thanks Sean / Dsoden,
VTL amps are on my list, others are some high powered Mono's from Manley. First I will try a powerful SS which has been suggested by most people, I can at least use that as a referrence point when I try out tubes later. I hate to be a pain about SS versus tubes and I do I appreciate everything that has been said about driving 3.6's with a high powered SS. I understand their load characteristic on an amplifier and that higher than normal current is needed.
Sean...I prefer 'forthright' over 'beating around the bush' anyday. It's ok to be forthright provided that one is factual, otherwise it ends up like a bad Bush speach!!

Just to reiterate, and not wanting to trawl over old ground, I do respect each and everyones opinions, and do appreciate people taking the time to add to the thread. And I really did try to incorporate as much of the information as was practical in my situation.

I like the speaker setup procedure, I think I've come across that somewhere before. I've also seen something similar that talks about adusting the toe-in to centralize lead vocal in the soundstage, where the recording is appropriate. This gives a different toe-in angle for each speaker based on the room being non-symetrical.
Anyway, things are looking up with the 3.6's, now I have to find a good amp....if anyone has something for sale I won't take it as 'unwanted solicitation' if someone wanted to drop me an email or call me on 920 336 0000 - (provided of course that doing so is within the framework of Audiogon acceptable policy.)
Thanks again

Rooze
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
566 posts
 
Sean, your comment on Pipedreams and SPL's makes sense, but is there anything out there that may be more affordable, that might couple well with tubes?
I'm quite pleased overal now with the sound of the 3.6's, in this space. However, I'm thinking about converting a room above the garage into a dedicated listening room, not now but perhaps in the new year. Again it is a large room but has zero constraints regarding equipment positioning. At this point I'm just collecting approximate costs, and getting a basic shopping list together. The room itself will need about $6k before any accoustic treatment, as the walls and ceiling need to be finished. The main problem with the room is that the floor is suspended and quite 'springy', so that may be an issue ultimately effecting speaker choice.
I haven't measured the room accurately yet but on the spec sheet when we bought the place it was listed as 60X44 approx. The ceiling is unfinished and it has a low height of 8' rising the the roof apex of about 12'.
Anyway, it's a project for the new year but I just wondered what you might think as far as speakers in the $5-8k used range. I like what I've read about the Wilson Sophia's, also perhaps Avantgarde as a contrasting design. What would you add to this list?

Thanks

Rooze
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
566 posts
 
Stereophile and TAS demonstrate the crossover between science and instinct. They occasionally review products and sing thier praises from the audible perspective, only to pass them over to the test people to have the test results suggest a less than stellar performance.
I'm not sure that 'instinct' is the right word here, are we saying that instinct can tell us that a component is good without having tested it AND without having heard it?....or are we just saying that instinct is effectively the process of hearing a component and forming an opinion on it's ability without having tested it?
Semantics maybe, but important nevertheless.

Sean, I'm going to pickup an SPL meter in the next couple days and get something more definative on the volume issue. I'm guessing that it's 100db max, but see the need to remove the guesswork!

It will be interesting to see what is suggested as far as high sensitivity speakers with high SPL capability with the ability to move a good amount of air. I'd love to see a pair of bright red Avantgarde Duo's with a couple of 12 watt SET mono's filling a large space with great sound!! (I'm sick, I know).

Thanks

Rooze
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
566 posts
 
Active bi-amping is going to be too expensive in the short term. I did finally pick up a pair of Cary V12i Monoblocks, so I have those working through the standard Magnepan crossovers. The Marchand crossover retails for around 2 grand with all the bells and whistles, like tubes, sub outs etc. I've been looking through the classifieds for something less expensive, but nothing so far.
I am a bit further on than when I first started this thread in October. I have the ARC LS 15, the Cary Mono's, the Cardas x-over cable kit, soundorg stands and marble support slabs. I've spent countless hrs hauling the maggies around the room and moving furniture around also.
Without spending a lot more money, I'm probably about as close as I can get with the performance.
If I had to sum things up in one paragraph, I'd have to say that these are quite remarkable speakers, but more than most other speakers I've used in my system, present the listener with various compromise situations. Placement and room interactions will ultimately determine the performance of the 3.6's, more so than I've experienced with any other speaker, including Quad ESL's. In trying to extract the best of low frequency performance, soundtage scale, imaging and mid-range musicality, you will hear each of these benchmark elements presented quite exceptionally, but never all present to the n'th degree at the same time. For example, right now I'm enjoying good low frequency extension with the speakers somewhere around 70" from the front wall. Bringing them away from the front wall results in a complete shift to noticably poorer LF extension, but an expansion in stage depth and image stability.......and so it goes on!

Anyway, please feel free to offer more comments. It's been a great learning experience and I'm still very much open to more suggestions that don't involve too much expense.

I think ultimately the Maggie's will have to go. I'll probably stay with them for another 3-6 months, but then I want to find a system that can extract the most benefit from a room of this proportion. Again, any ideas on speakers for a room around 48x28x10 with the 10' opening up to a 28' high cathedral ceiling 12 feet into the room.
My typical listening volume is below 90db....occasional 95db peaks on classical music. I'm a tube fan and that won't change.

Thanks again.

Rooze

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