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M-Lores or Aon 3: bass/imaging

Ok, yet another thread along the lines of "which speakers should I buy?" (I've read a few thousand of them lately). But my question is really coming from the fact that I've never owned floor-standers before. So I'm sort of paralyzed by the fact that I like the idea of the Tekton Mini-Lores--straight-ahead good design--but I can't audition them. "Money back" -$120 total shipping isn't my idea of money back, on my salary... On the other side of the ring currently are the Golden Ear Aons, which claim the same 38Hz bass response. So, opinions and experiences from people with a deeper background with both kinds of speakers is welcome. If not experience with these models, then experience with the underlying technologies. I'm not sure whether or not conventional wisdom regarding floorstanders vs. bookshelves applies in 2013 with these designs.

Context:
1) I'm running a class-D (solid-state-sounding Icepower) amp, and like it a lot. My listening level is only about 82dB at distance, slow-weighted peaks on an SPL meter. So no need to shake the house. Still, 87dB sensitivity seems a good minimum to be safe. This makes some contenders marginal (Dynaudio, Kef, PSB, Ascend). It suggests Tekton and Golden Ear, in particular, although I'm mainly drawn to both for their bass response spec and other design features.
2) This system will be 2-channel music only. A main goal is to switch the subwoofer off for good, since I've never liked the amount of fiddling I've had to do and haven't ever been entirely comfortable with the result.
3) I'm a sucker for a vast sound stage and good imaging, not too far back (my current Axiom M2v2 speakers put the sound stage someplace way back in the neighbor's house). I also tend to be analytical in most things.
4. Low-E on a bass guitar is about 41Hz, I've read, so this is a good target for the bass freq I'm looking to nail. I want it defined and balanced, not accentuated. But I don't want it just "implied" through harmonics (or else the sub stays on).
5. I've always put on headphones when I want to hear detail, having never owned really top-shelf speakers. I can still do that if I get something really fun from the speakers as a trade off for less detail.

Questions:
1) Reading between the lines, it seems like bass response on floor-standers is reported honestly, while on bookshelves a "38Hz" rating or the like seems really to mean roll off below 60Hz. Is that basically how it goes? E.g., Mini-lores will be flat at 38Hz while Golden Ear Aon 3 would be (to make up a number) like -9dB at 38Hz? The Aons seem to rely on wall reflections to get that bass to you, which might be perfectly fine.
2) Both imaging and air-moving bass are about driver size--or so I've read, and it makes obvious sense. Aon 3 claims 7" mid-range driver; Mini-Lore = 8" wideband driver. Seems pretty close... Comments on either or both of these speakers, based either on personal experience or informed supposition? "They" say the mini-lores are "not the most resolving speaker" etc. Hedge, hedge. Do they stack up to the imaging capabilities of smaller good bookshelves or not?

Note that for the mini-lores, I would need to do vineers and/or grills, so it'll be the same price essentially as the Aon 3s.
That's the pricepoint I'm comfortable with.

I've also auditioned the Sjofn "(The Clue)" speakers, and found them to be terrific as a pro tool, but perhaps actually too detailed and too finicky for a room not furnished around them. I'm still considering them, though. Other than the Clues, I've really never heard outstanding speakers in-depth. I have the Axioms noted above, plus Boston Acoustics A40s from 1986, still in service. That's pretty much my speaker-buying history. I can audition the Golden Ears, but it will be a day trip so won't be doing it lightly. Again, no way to hear the Tektons, but I feel pretty confident about them except for the question mark about possibly lesser imaging (versus the Aons lesser bass?). Thanks in advance for opinions and experiences. I guess this post appears to lean toward the Tektons, but in fact the GEs fit the room better, so I'm still very much open, including being open to not buying anything.
adlevision

Showing 5 responses by tonyangel

tonyangel
309 posts
 
I suppose I should qualify what I'm about to say with the fact that I haven't heard either of the speakers being dicussed.

Although my perception of my experiences may be off, I'd say that, generally speaking, when comparing a stand mount speaker to a floor mount speaker of equal price, the stand mount is going to be the better built speaker.

I've also found that just about all manufacturers make claims of low frequency responses that just aren't realized in the real world.

Dollar for dollar, stand mount speakers sound better. Even though a floor stander may be capable of delivering better bass, you may not be able to realize the benefits of the added bass. This is because putting the speakers where the bass response is best is likely not going to be the position where the speakers image the best, and placing the speakers where they image the best is unlikely to produce the best bass response.

Unless I'm mistaken, ALL speakers rely on reinforcement from their environment for bass response. If bass is what you are going to base your decision on, maybe you should just resign yourself to getting a subwoofer that integrates better.

I run a pair of the tiny Silverline Minuets with a small REL subwoofer and the integration is seamless. I used a setup cd with a bunch of test tones on it and a sound level meter from Radio Shack to get pretty close to where the settings needed to be and tweaked from there. It was a set it and forget it affair.
tonyangel
309 posts
 
I have to admit that all of the buzz going around with the mLores also sparked my interest, which led to a bit of reading up on them.

A poster above mentioned tilting the speakers back to get it so that the listener is in the sweet spot. I've seen this mentioned several times in my research and it bothers me a bit.

Is it to say that you have to be sitting in a sweet spot to enjoy these speakers at their best? How narrow is this sweet spot? Is there so much phase shift (I think that's the term) that you are compelled to tilt the speaker back.

If this is so, it seems to me that there is a fundamental design flaw in that the speakers should have been made a bit taller.
tonyangel
309 posts
 
Speakers are tools and you have to use the right tool for the job. There is such a thing as having too much speaker for a room. Sometimes, a floor stander is the only way to go. Sometimes, a stand mounter is the only way to go. Sometimes, you could go either way.

There isn't anything philosophical about it. It's in the physics. Where floor standers are going to excel is going to be in the area of the lower frequencies by virtue of both driver size and cabinet volume. For example, look at the Paradigm Studio 40 as compared to the Studio 60. Unless I'm mistaken, they both have the same drivers, but the Studio 60s have more volume and therefor go lower.

With those two, you can say that they should sound the same, except that the 60 has more bass. Where the subjective difference comes in is how each is going to sound in your room. As I mentioned above, bass response is dependent on room placement, as is imaging. Personally, I went with the 40s, because I thought they sounded faster and tighter. It was also easier to set them up because I set them up for image, without concern for the bass and backed them up with a good sub. When I tried to do that with the 60s, the bass sounded slow and muddy.

For me, the combination of the 40s and the sub, sounded better than the 60s, either alone or with a sub.

Now, in this case, you're comparing small speakers with a smaller driver to a larger speaker with a larger driver. I think that's sort of apples and oranges. At this point, all I can say is get the one that sounds the best in your room.

You really can't choose speakers based on specs. As in my situation, I would never have dreamed that I would wind up with a pair of speakers that had 3.5" drivers in them, but they sound the best in my room. Of course, it usually takes more power to get a bookshelf to play as loudly as a floor stander, but when I turn up Diana Krall, I do not get the impression that I'm listening to small speakers. I feel like I'm sitting in a night club.

You also mentioned profit margin and assume that there isn't much of one with the Tektons. I must beg to differ.

When you are in the business of manufacturing a product for sale for a PROFIT, you can make it one of two ways. Keep in mind that whether you are a manufacturer using a direct sales model or a manufacturer using a retailer distribution model, you have overhead to meet before you start putting anything into your pocket.

You make money, to put it simply, in one of two ways. Either with a higher profit margin to make up for smaller volume sales or a lower profit margin and higher volume sales.

I'm guessing that Tekton's model is based on the former. The only point I'm trying to make is that I don't think you shouldn't assume that there isn't much mark up in the Tektons.

Of course, when trying to evaluate the "value" of a purchase when comparing a direct sales product to a distributed product it becomes more difficult. What that, again, leaves us with in your situation is to go with what sounds the best.

If I had to buy speakers without having heard them, I'd probably go with stand mounters, for a couple of reasons. First, because stand mounters usually image like crazy. Second, they are usually easier to setup and deal with.

What really threw me off about the Tektons, was the reviewers comment about the phase shift. Something like that would make me nuts. Like listening to the music in my usual position and then deciding to kick back with my feet up on the coffee table and then noticing that the sound has changed. Or standing up and noticing again, that the sound has changed.

Still, I have no doubt that the Tektons are a great bang for the buck. It also sounds like you're leaning that way and are now trying to justify that.

On the other hand, it also seems like both of the speakers being discussed have short coming that may concern you, regarding what you want in a speaker. Have you considered anything else?
tonyangel
309 posts
 
Holley,

I don't know what your space limitations are, or more specifically, what freedom you will have in experimenting with placement.

If you have to shop for speakers without being able to hear them, try to also gather information on how picky they are about placement.

I have some rather extensive limitations that I have to deal with, in terms of speaker placement. My room isn't as long as yours, but it's a good bit wider. I'm filling something around 2800 cubic feet, not including the areas that the room opens into.

I wound up running a pair Silverline Minuet Supreme Pluses, because they are the most forgiving speaker I've found. I actually have them sitting on shelves in an entertainment center. Each shelf is only 18" deep and about 3' wide and the little Minuets still sound good with a good soundstage.

I'm not going to try to tell you that they go low, because they don't, but they aren't finicky at all about placement and they do the bass that they are capable of with authority.

I was just listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn jamming with Albert King and didn't realize for a while that the sub wasn't on. I'm running a little REL T3. It fast and pretty tight and blends well with the Minuets. I have the crossover set at 50hz.
tonyangel
309 posts
 
Adlevision,

Man, I'm really feeling for you and don't envy where you are. Picking speakers sucks, because you're always second guessing yourself.

Although my opinion on the mLores is probably next to meaningless, since I've never owned them, it just seems to me that they should have been a bookshelf. They aren't tall enough to be a real floor stander and they're too tall to put on stands. If I had to deal with leaning them back, I'd probably just make some very short tables for them to stand on so that I would get a more linear dispersion from them.

It just seems to me that tilting them backwards would make for a very narrow listening position.

Of the other speakers that you mentioned, I've owned the Studio 10/20s. Personally, I like the 10s better. I thought they had a better mid range, but the 20s low a bit lower and play louder. Still, if you are looking at putting them on stands and are interested in Paradigm, I'd be looking for a pair of Studio 40 v3. The 10/20s are good, but always thought they did better with home theatre than music. The 40s, on the other hand, are very musical with a full sound. The 40s are very substantial too, at around 40lbs each.

I've also had experience with Dynaudio. The Dyn 2/6 and the Excite X12. Both good speakers in the sense that neither did anything that brought attention to it, which is good. The Monitor Audio RX1 is also an excellent speaker.

Honestly, though, given the amount of space that you have, I think that you could probably go a tad larger on the stand mounters without running into placement issues. All of those that you've mentioned are on the small side.

Have you taken a look in the classified here?
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