LUXMAN L509X VS M700/C700U


HELLO,
I have a Luxman m700u AMP and  with its DAC Luxman DA-06. I have been using my Oppo HA-1 preamp with this equipment.
I have triangle signature delta speakers.

my next step is to either sell M700u and buy L509x or get C700u to complete the paring with M700.
Please comment with experience.

Ag insider logo xs@2xrizwanalimohd
UM, I'm not sure if I'm the right person to answer you, since you have two components I find pretty bright, the Triangle and Oppo.


The Luxman's are wonderfully extended and smooth with nothing to prove. They are considerably less laid back than some neutral amps like Parasound. They have more bass than some very expensive American Class A amps.


Given the impedance curve, those speakers are "discerning" of amplifier current. I'd stick with the amp you have, and upgrade the pre.


My biggest concern for you is that listening to them you may miss character you are currently enjoying.
Thank you Erik 
I also have an eastern electric dac but it had some crackling sound in tweeter so I stopped using them 
will taking out Oppo and introducing c700 soften things up or other option is to get tube preamp
I think the C700 will be transformative.


The  C700 would be the natural addition. One other option would be the Luxman CL 38U-C tube preamp and match it w/the 700U. I have the Cl38U-SE w/a Bryston amp and it's an excellent combo.
What do you guys think of 509x 
it has the c900 pre amp 

also does 509x also has the first few watts as class A like M700u 

Cl38uc did it soften the sound ? Did u compare that with c700u 
Not so much soften but a smoother less digital sound. All the details and dynamics were still there. I also have a Luxman PD-171A TT hooked up to the preamp and the all tube phono is excellent. Has 4 steppe transformers. 2 for MC high and 2 for mc low. If you have a Luxman dealer nearby it would be worth checking out the tube solid state combo..
Get a CL-38 vacuum pre to pair with solid state amp. This is commonly done to sweeten the sound of a cold SS amp. This may also tone down those horn tweeters on triangles. 
Alternatively, Sell the m700 and get a full tube set up, MQ-88 and CL-38. Paired with your DA-06 you’ll have a world class system that would suit your triangles. Sound of tube separates, IMO would be sublime with bright triangles.
Keep the m700 so you can compare before you cull it. Get the integrated if you have space limitations. 
Neither Lux 700 is the 900 series or the 509x includes 900u pre-amp.. 
I have the 900u Monos and i compared extensively with 700 , 509, CL38 SE combo etc.
Simply 900u has nothing to do with the rest.
Luxman tubes best for triangle speakers.
They work well at low volume.
Regards 
Deltas don't do well with solid state. I had them with tube amplification after been unable to match them with SS for months.
They are moderate efficient speakers buy they need Current to control the multiple drivers design. Stay away from SS if you keep deltas.
Best,
If the OP had started with a Luman SS Pre and wanted to go something to soften the highs, I'd completely agree, go tubes.
However, the OP is starting with an Oppo HA-1 which, IMHO, is awful. If he can listen to that, then going to the Luxman will be a huge improvement across the board.

He _should_ listen.

Also, yeah, I have problems with the Triangle horn tweets, but I wonder now how much of that is placement. Don't toe those in, and make sure you have lots of high frequency absorbers around the room, especially between and behind the speakers, including the floor.
Wow these are excellent conversations 
I actually had heard b&w 804 before the deltas and thetas
Deltas made me crave to go back to hear more music cuz the definition in the music it played 
I heard them with Sqn 150 and then I compared them with M700u 
i
also wanted to see if you all had any comments on 509 vs seperates

Triangles are brand new I will love to live with them for few years 

how was was the base in the Luxman tubes combo?
If you have the budget separates 900 series will outperform all previously mentioned.
Regards
The only amps I can say smokes everything I had owned are Mastersound PF100. Yes best ever up to date in my journey. 
Lifetime investment. 
Smile in your face.
Best,
My Dac da 06 is arriving next week I can’t wait to see and hear with them 
word out there says that this Dac makes things less bright 
@rizwanalimohd There was a British review of the 509x integrated and it stated that the preamp and amp sections of the 509x were derived from the 700 series. If I can find that review I will post on this thread (later tonight if I find it)

I have demoed both the 509x and the 900 series on the same system and the differences were rather large in favor of the 900 series.

@mountainsong  What preamp or DAC with volume are you using the m900u amps with? I am thinking of going with the $2.5K Benchmark LA4 preamp instead of the $15K Luxman c900u preamp. I will do a 30 trial with the LA4 preamp first but I was curious if others used anything other than the c900u.
The Oppo is probably not doing a great job with that system as a preamp, a good preamp can make or break a system.

You should borrow a Luxman preamp and see if it makes the system way better. Other good options is a good tube preamp.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
+1 on borrowing / listening for yourself.

I stand by my recommendations, based on where the OP is starting from, but I also think the OP's wallet and ears matter more than mine. :D
I think OP will replace oppo with luxman Dac. Seems most agree all tube set up will be ideal. 
Agree with mastersound recommendation, best tubes I’ve ever heard as well. They are 
very hard to find on a used market though. I’d stay away from integrated if above tube set up is an option. Is audition possible ?
The DA-06 does not have volume control, so some sort of preamp is needed.  Since OP asked about direct comparisons between the Luxman components, OP can also check out audiodrom.net where all the questioned components are reviewed by a group of 3 reviewers. Good Luck!
So this above review calls 509x better than separates 
do u agree? 
And I wonder no one mentioned class A 590 
by the way room is 15x22
You didn’t ask about the L-590. It’s a great amp, but probably bettered somewhat by the separates, I imagine. Mountainsong has owned it, as well, and hopefully will chime in.

http://www.audiodrom.net/en/integrated-amplifiers/detail/31-integrated-amplifiers/297-luxman-l-590ax...
What do guys think about cl 38uc and combine it with m700u with triangle speakers ? Vs c700u

does anyone know if Luxman will be replacing this 700 combo soon 

The Luxman integrateds are VERY VERY GOOD.

The Luxman Class A integrateds are also very good, but I think the power issue makes them quite curious things.

Based on reviews I've seen, the power supply and output stage seem built for higher output than claimed, but the heatsinks are not. To rate an amp at x watts legally you have to preheat them, and run at steady state.  The Luxman can't do it, so you have to think of it more like a smaller amp with enormous dynamic headroom.
BTW, I love my Luxman integrated and the only amps I've heard better are the D'Agostinos.

My only reason for suggesting to keep your separate is the damn low mid-bass issue. It may be helped by a bigger amp with more current and output stages.

Since you already have the amp, I'm suggesting you keep it and get a matching pre, but listening is key, and honestly, when these issues come up they are NOT difficult to hear.

Listen with an integrated to something with significant bass, especially electric guitar or kick drums. Switch amps. Hear no difference? Buy what is cheaper, smaller and more convenient.

Does one amp magically sound more full and breaths easier? Buy that one.

Like I said, every time I've seen a speaker with an impedance curve like this they become very amp fussy. I have even seen speakers with this drop deliberately created to make the speaker seem more demanding. Like I need a Dominatrix for a speaker, but apparently many do, and prefer the speaker that will demand a beefier amp.

Eric, please cite your source on the all of you claims you made two posts up about the Luxman class A's, legality of power ratings, etc, etc. It all sounds like hogwash to me. You seem to have some strong opinions on amps you're never seen or heard, but only read about.
@builder3  I think erik is sharing his thoughts and experiences 
I feel our personal experiences and witnessing some combo in action is more valuable than these big shot reviews 
erik what I understand that the first few watts is what it counts and 590 has enough watts 

I am calling my guy tomorrow to listen to 509 and cl 38uc preamp
unfortunatlwy they don’t have c700u for me to audition 
rizwanalimohd, I don't have an issue with erik sharing any of his experiences in the least. My issue is when he says things that he heard or read that don't make any sense, at least to me. I asked him to cite his source(s). However, since you're the OP, I'll bow out of your thread, rather than sidetrack it.
Best of luck with your search,
Don’t go stay builder 3 
the Dac is coming next week I will update the forum 

Hi @builder3
Eric, please cite your source on the all of you claims you made two posts up about the Luxman class A’s, legality of power ratings, etc, etc.

I have no issue at all with having my sources questioned, though I am not a paid contributor, so please keep your questions polite. I know it’s hard in an online forum, but I would appreciate it if you gave me the benefit of the doubt and treated me as some one trying to be helpful. I did cover a lot of ground in very few statements and I can see how it can seem to be incoherent.


Please understand that I really am a Luxman fanboy, so I was trying to be quick about my typing. I myself own a 507ux, which is A/B.

I will give you two hard fact sets, and then my inference.

First, the FTC rule I was talking about:

https://www.iqaudiocorp.com/pages/FTC-amplifier-power-spec.html


This is how Stereophile measures when they determine an amplifier’s legal power rating. It isn’t the only thing they measure. For more on that seek out Stereophile’s pages on their measurement process. If you’ve followed Stereophile’s amp reviews you’ve read a few times when amps did NOT make it past the warmup period. They shut down and had to cool off before they could be meausred fully.


Next, let’s talk about the Luxman 590. According to their website it is a 30W / channel amplifier:
http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=1#spec


I honestly believe that this amp will produce at least 30 W / channel per the FTC regulations. I was really more curious how it could be SOOOO very low in power, given it’s power consumption at idle and full power. Wow, that’s one inefficient amp, even by class A standards. :)  Fortunately my question was answered in this A’gon thread:


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/luxman-l-509x


Specifically with this British review:

http://www.navratilaudio.cz/novinky/Luxman_L590AXII_HFW.pdf


They measured it at 90W/Channel or 156W/channel into 4 Ohms. Substantially better than the rating of 30.
So, based on this, I make an inference that Luxman may have chosen to underrate the amp to keep the heat sinks in the same form factor as the other integrateds in the line, which was not a limitation on the stand-alone amplifiers.

That is, to meet the 90W/Ch rating of the FTC they could have kept all the circuits the same, but been forced to use much larger heat sinks.


You seem to have some strong opinions on amps you’re never seen or heard, but only read about.

Please explain what part you feel I was making unfounded claims on.

Best,

Erik
Interestingly, the 590 and 700u share output transistor topology and have very similar damping factors.

The m900 however uses 2x the number of transistors per channel, and cuts the output impedance by half.

As I wrote before, the issue I was most worried of is VERY easy to hear. The OP should have no issue at all judging for himself.
erik what I understand that the first few watts is what it counts and 590 has enough watts


Hi OP,

I guess my point was lost. :) Based on the reviews, I think the 590 is a much bigger amp than it's rating, as I wrote above. 


Being in LA in an apartment, with 90+ degrees outside I can't afford a Class A amp and am very happy with my compromised 507. :)


I think it will be interesting, given the similarity of output stage, and damping factor of the 700 and 590 if you find any difference at all.  I had forgotten how similar these two amps are.


Shame we aren't made of money so we can just order the m900. :)

Best,

E

Erik, I appreciate the effort, but am still unconvinced of your conclusions. The first Luxman link you cite was provided by me, during one of the ever-recurring threads where people continue to talk about the lack of power in the L-590AX. And as I've stated before, I own that amp.
My issue with what I called your "unfounded claims" is based on your conclusion that the amp wouldn't meet the FTC requirements to claim a higher power rating. Perhaps you're correct, but you don't know that, you merely surmised as much. In fact, you jump to a bunch of conclusions about the amp, it's engineering, even going so far as to state what it can and can't do, all without having ever even seen one, let alone heard one, as far as I can tell.
What I've surmised (but also don't know for a fact) is that Luxman chose to advertise the amp as pure Class A, and stated the output as such. This seems more likely to me, considering that they never even so much as hint at it switching to A/B beyond that 30wpc. This will be my last post on the subject, the last word is all yours, take care
 “What do guys think about cl 38uc and combine it with m700u with triangle speakers ? Vs c700u” 


I think CL-38 should sound better with 700u and triangle. 
What makes the SS preamp c700u 50% more expensive than CL-38? Has anyone compared the aforementioned preamps?
 I had the 509X, and it is stunning, best integrated i’ve ever heard by a wide margin; The 509X does not have the C-900U preamp. It might have a few bits here and there, but make no mistake, it is NOT a C900u; that being said the 509X is amazing and from what I have heard from a few dealers, the preamp section in the 509X is newer than the stand alone C700 pre; (Correct me if i’m wrong); Perhaps if you want to simplify and just want to enjoy amazing sound reproduction go for the 509X and call it a day; either way you can’t go wrong. One more thing, the sensitivity of your speakers implies a good match for the powerful 509X (I used it on my 4 ohm Dynaudio Contour 60’s and it was enough power there).


So, we know this:
Luxman underrated the 590 in a way they have not underrated the 509 or 507. That is, the measured performance of the 509/507 are much closer to published spec.

We don't know why.

I only offer a hypothesis, that the heat sinks can't get the amp past the FTC.

I don't think this is bad, by the way. It is a smart compromise.
I just spoke to my dealer in upstate NY 
He Currently does not have the cl 38 uc but says it’s his all time favorite 
I will audition the 509x soon 
Half the time that I say I’m done posting, I eat my words. Oh well.
Erik, Luxman’s published power specs are confined to the Class A pieces, from what I’ve seen. The 505/07/09 are all A/B, and specified in a straight forward manner. The L-550 and L-590, both Class A, (but later switch to A/B), but only are specified as Class A.
I looked around a little to be sure, this is Stereophile’s review of the now-discontinued M-800A power amp. Also a Class A piece. I’ll not say anything else other than you may find John Atkinson’s measurements interesting. Luxman obviously has reasons for what they do. I don’t know what they are. From what I have seen, the ratings are the same for the non-U.S. models.
https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/1108lux/index.html
Erik, Luxman’s published power specs are confined to the Class A pieces, from what I’ve seen. The 505/07/09 are all A/B, and specified in a straight forward manner. The L-550 and L-590, both Class A, (but later switch to A/B), but only are specified as Class A.

So, your inference is good, but my inference is not, based on what?

Your hypothesis is not implausible, but how would a neutral third party judge between the two of us?



So, I wrote to Luxman America and asked the question regarding 590 power directly. :)

That really is what I should have done ages ago. I'll post the reply, so long as they agree with me. :D

Best,
E
Erik, I don’t think I made an inference. Every class A amp that I’ve looked at has only had the that specified, but has measured much more. Or were you referring to something else?
What specifically did you ask about the 590?
Thanks
My post up above, with the link to the Stereophile test is poorly worded.

What I was trying to say is that the factory power specs for all of Luxman’s non-Class A amps reflect their true output, the 509, 507, 505, etc.

The factory power specs for the Class A equipment reflects only the measurements in Class A output, and seems to utterly ignore everything beyond that, after the amps switch to A/B.

I haven’t inferred that, but instead base that on the three Class A components that I’ve read actual tested measurements for, the L590, L550, and the M800A linked above.

That make more sense?
W/those speakers you may want to go all tube. I’d think about the CL38U-C w/the matching Luxman MQ-88-C amp. I heard this combo w/the Klipsch La Scala’s. Also very soon Luxman will be releasing their new tube preamp in the USA the C-1000. A bit out of my price range 16-17K. Interesting how it will compete w/other top of the line tube preamps.
I have a question why are triangles labeled as speakers do well with tubes 
Do u think people who have short listening session will have issues with tubes to warm up etc 
i so far like the sound of triangles they are very clean sounding 
i tested bw 804 and these brought me smiles and made me curious during the songs 
Guys I auditioned the cl 38uc 
and it sounds sweet with the amp  m700u
The CL-38 w/a solid state amp makes an excellent combo. Having the 38 se for over a year and a half w/a Bryston amp I have really enjoyed the music. Gets the most out of my Aerial 5T's. The problem was Luxman made only 100 SE's for world wide sale to celebrate their 90th Birthday. As a result not many people had a chance to hear it. The 38C will have a larger distribution and be more easily available for customers to demo.
Nice to hear!!
I've never tried a Luxman Tube, but the integrated tubes have always interested me.... but really have no long term use for them.


The C-1000 all tube preamp is coming. It will be priced around 16K. Also recently heard the new Luxman SQN-150 integrated tube amp. Only about 11" wide. Has a built in SS MM/MC phono. Heard it w/a pair of Forte III's and a Clearaudio Concept TT. Just $2750 for the integrated. Also they have a matching CD player w/built in DAC the same size at the same price. Build and SQ typical excellent Luxman product.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/luxman-509x-and-da-06.28794/
Did you end up getting the CL-38? How is it? 

What are you using for the source? I assume you've got the Luxman Dac. 
Are you able to audition Luxman Tube amp? Do you have a power conditioner? What speaker cable do you have? 

@ei001 
 I bought the CL -38uc. its very nice. 
DAC is not here yet. it will come tomorrow 
Currently I am running Triangle signature delta with M700u , CL 38uc, source is mac via Oppo HA-1 dac. 
I don't have power conditioner yet but I do have ifi plugged in my outlet. 
I am running Qobuz and tidal via audirvana. 
currently I have Anticables 3.0
Any suggestions?