Low volume listening dynamics

wolf-garcia, you can get that response out of an older tube amp and high efficiency speakers often.

A speaker with sizzling treble and bloated bass at "normal" listening levels will likely sound better at very low levels, so get some of those...just don't turn them up.

I've read that chord hugo tt2 was designed with extra robust output that can drive low levels to speakers, and it's highly regarded. I get good sound out of large boxes with clean 300w ML532h SS amp. I use all digital and have found JRiver Media Center's variable loudness (similar to Yamaha and Denon loudness dials) to be very useful at low levels. It also has a PEQ to allow any other tweaking you might want. I think the room matters less at low levels due to reflections being too low in absolute level. Micro-dynamics might be more important with low level too. Audioquest Hurricane HC did wonders in this regard on my usb-spdif convertor. Good luck, this was a good thread!

Hi Timo

I hope you find what you are looking for !
Thanks  Bob

Thank you again Bob. I think this is precisely what I was looking for: treading slowly into tube territory, but needing some good direction. I'll be jumping in this week.

Best, 
Timo

Hi tmalkki
I don’t usually make amp recommendations but I will in this case.
https://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84UFO25.html
I have this amp and it is amazing. Call Steve Deckert he is the owner and designer. He will be happy to talk to you and he won’t BS you either.Check out the the Decware website forum there is a lot of good info there about tube amps (PP, SET, SEP) there is also a couple threads about the amp I recommended He also has a 30 day money back guarantee. The one downside as he builds all his gear by hand and built to order it can take as much as 4 months to get it but in my case it was definitely worth the wait.
Thanks Bob

Thanks Bob. I like where you're going with it. I've built some full range drivers with sealed and with transmission line cabinets, no crossovers of any kind, and the results have been very pleasing to me. The set amp is the next step for me. Thank you 

Hi tmalkki

I think the trick to great low level volume listening is crossover less single driver speakers with a low watt SET amp.
In my experience with multi driver speakers if you want to listen to low volume the low power signal gets caught up in the crossovers and not all the signal gets to the output and you lose some of that detail in the music.
With multi driver speakers to get that detail you have to play it loud so the high power signal can overcome what it loses in the cross over.With crossover less single driver speakers none of the signal gets lost at any volume what goes in the speaker comes out the same, you hear all the music
I think if you google single driver crossover less speakers and low watt SET amps with low volume listening you will find the information about the concept and they will explain it a lot better then I did.
Some one in this thread advised you to check out the Decware web site I think you should as well and also the Omega speaker web site.
I had a stereo years ago big power full amp and multi driver speakers and I could only get good detail in the music at uncomfortable ( for me ) volume levels. How ever for a number of years now have a system as described above and I can get great detail with comfortable volumes.
Big is not necessarily better !
Thanks
Bob

PS My amp only has 2 watts per channel but I can tell you those 2 watts are outstanding.

hi all, so at the level of the enthusiasts that have been posting in this engaging thread, a variety of approaches will work beautifully. I love quiet listening on a system that wouldn't seem to lend itself to it: inefficient speakers paired with a robust solid state integrated. Fortunately, my Accuphase E-470 not only has nice tone controls and a loudness circuit, it also has an exquisitely engineered volume control. My ATC 40's respond with their usual vibrancy even when a certain light-sleeping spouse is sleeping essentially right above the main listening room. ~oran

The key to my low volume dynamics is a AVC volume control by Bent Audio / Dave Slagle and a distributed bass system . I have 86 db sealed speakers . 

Wow. I'll have to read that more than a few times. Thank you for the response. Yes I do enjoy the occasional foray into drivers and cabinets, a labor of love. Will do some (a ton) of research into your suggestions.

@tmalkki

From 5-31
Clams are happy, and so will I be too. Don't want to dominate this format at all, but would like a couple of suggestions on a good first timer tube integrated. Will probably build my own full range speaker pair, concentrating on high efficiency drivers. Most of my listening is CD and HD streaming. No vinyl at the moment unfortunately. Thanks guys for the feedback this far. I have lots to learn.

Hello.
I see you are into DIY speakers and your listening is through CD and streaming. Here's an alternative for your consideration: A digitally active system with high efficiency DIY speakers, room corrected, time-aligned, etc.
My view: given a limited amount of money spent on audio (non unconstrained budget) and if you can live with digital source only you will get better sound by avoiding expensive crossover parts and cabinets, a preamp, and design for a single purpose.

Pro speaker drivers have gotten VERY good over the years and are much higher efficiency than the audiophile brands. I'm working with an AMT tweeter at 102 dB sensitivity and mids at 98 dB. As it usually reinforced here and other places, good speaker-amp matching is key, and going active you can perfectly match the driver and the amp that will directly drive it, including flat impedance if the amp needs it. I'm designing for 2A3 SETs on midrange and tweeter - the importance of the first Watt, as many mentioned here :-)

One key is the DAC. Instead of audiophile 2-channel DACs you will need a 4, 6, or 8-channel DAC. You have exaSound e38 DAC, but most likely use a good pro ADC/DAC (they are called cards, but they aren't computer cards you place inside the PC :-)). That acts as DAC and directly drives amps. A key component. Have a look for example at Merging Technologies Hapi, Lynx Hilo, Prism Audio Titan.

The other key is software. I use Roon (and have used JRiver and HQPlayer and are all good) that plays back from my stored music files or from Tidal. Within Roon I run convolution with digital filters that are the crossovers and room correction, so the computer sends 8 channels through USB to the DAC, which directly drives the amps: 2 powered subs, 2 midbass, 2 for midranges, 2 for tweeters. This way, each amp is required to reproduce a limited frequency range (that is what they get in the input), which is a good thing because many tube amp struggle a bit with bass. The important software is what you use for deriving the convolution filters (I use Acourate).

I have B&W 804S which I've had for about 10 years since brand new. I started experimenting with active, removing the passive crossovers and implementing all corrections and loved it. Then I started exploring DIY speakers with pro drivers and I'm sold. I will end up selling my B&Ws, will build the DIY speakers, and have a positive balance of money to pay for improving other parts of the chain.

I realize it's a lot to digest. But would encourage you to consider it.
I hope it helps.

For the last several years, I have adjusted the volume level down. Most of my listening now is at a more comfortable, maybe 55-60 db. For me is kind of a sweet spot - loud enough to be dynamic and for the highs to come out, but low enough to keep from hammering my poor old ears and head. I do need a sub to augment the low end - adjusted to interface well at that level, but do have to manually adjust the bass level if I change the volume much either way. Seems like mijostyn has the ideal system for that.
My Maggie 1.7s are not real efficient (rated at 86 db.) but still sound incredibly good, as well as dynamic, even at low volume levels, driven with a 100W Rogue, integrated tub amp....Jim

mijostyn, that's cool (dynamic loudness compensation).  What's the device that offers this feature for future reference.  Thx.

Adam F5 is an interesting new thought to consider, thank you.

Have to second the opinion about the Schiit Loki. Vacuum tube system with sensitive speakers (Audio Physic Scorpios 91 dB) sounds more satisfying, but certainly not live, at lower listening levels. At normal levels the Loki is bypassed. 

glassrd, no upset at all. I have been doing essentially the same thing for 20 years. You have just programmed your own loudness compensation.
The unit I have allows you to program 8 loudness compensation curves each one active in a specific volume range then the unit jumps from one curve to the next as you adjust the volume. Dynamic Loudness compensation. 

Relating speaker sensitivity to low volume detail seems incorrect to me.  One of my systems has really excellent low volume realism, and the speakers are the lowest efficiency of any I own - 86 dB.

At the risk of upsetting the true audiophiles......I have two separate solutions in different rooms for low volume listening.  In my office, I use the Adam F-5 active nearfield monitors, and their built-in adjustable treble and bass EQ setting to boost low end bass response and high end treble response.  In the family room (which is my main listening room), I use an Emotiva XMC-1 sound processor and have set up a dedicated EQ preset with individual frequency adjustments to optimize for low volume listening.  The older we get, the more 'help' we need to compensate for low volume listening.  In the past, I have liked only one "Loudness" feature, and that was on an old Yamaha receiver I had I college.  I don't like the Loudness feature on the XMC-1, but I do like the parametric equalizer that I can tune to my own flawed ears.  Good luck.

Your good fortune in all these things, Wolf. ISO 226 is the name of an official EU publication. 

Please explain ISO 226 and I promise I'll try to understand...regarding my seeming "good fortune," are you referring to my ceiling or my furnishings? I do own an oil painting of some gigantic fruit in a road...

jriggy, in short no. Some people here on definitely on the right track. This is a moving target and there are many variables that are difficult to control. The most difficult one is the recording itself. Some records sound good at low levels others not. Systems that are boosted in the mid bass and treble for whatever reason are going to sound better at low levels. 
The variable that you want to be able to control is the frequency response of your system. The industry has know this for a long time. My father's HH Scott preamp from the 60's had tone controls and a loudness compensation switch. Then equalizes came along in the 70's but audiophiles were beginning to shun them because of the damage they did to imaging. In 2000 or so TACT audio came along with digital equalization and room control. Before TACT went out of business They evolved to the 2.2X which has Room control, Time alignment, bass management and dynamic loudness control. The loudness compensation changes with volume. The result is the system sounds the same at all volumes. The unit also allows you to design any response curve you can think of and load it into memory. You can switch back and forth between curves with the remote. This was an amazing education for me and would be for any audiophile. As long as everything is phase/time correct and early reflections are minimized you can make a system do anything except change imaging patterns created by the type of speaker used. You can't make a point source speaker sound like a line source. 
So, if you want more detail at low volumes you create a low volume curve with even more added bass below 100 Hz and more treble above 6000 Hz. The TACT 2.2x is the ultimate tweak. Current units that come close are the Anthem STR preamp and the Trinnov Amethyst. Unfortunately they have yet to include dynamic loudness control. Radomir Bozevic where are you when we need you! Radomir designed the Lyngdorf units. They were the bottom end of the TACT range. 

Assuming a good and proper impedance match, can a DAC direct to amp be another pice of the puzzle to get to good detailed lower vol listening?  

Own an old pair of BIC v830’s , 
powered by a relatively new odyssey kismet pair.
  Low volumes, the bass is super deep, and highs are crisp, midrange chunky and wicked, Malmsteen, Gary Moore, megadeth, 
 to the nice plucking of Donovan and Jackson Browne.

 It’s amazing. These speakers have never sounded better.

 

It is more the kind of speaker rather than its
efficiency rating or the amp pushing it. 

A couple of the above posts gave you an accurate answer.

Electrostatics are better at low levels than box speakers.

Would that all had your good fortune, Wolf. It's ISO 226 (2003), on the 70th anniversary of F-M.

I always found that low level detail was a strength of tube amps. I dont really think the efficiency of the speakers is as critical as others on this thread.

Did I get an update in 2001? Was it from Fletcher or Munson? And I have a great sounding room likely due to a  high sloping ceiling and my impeccable taste in furnishings.

I have 4 pairs of speakers with low-ish efficiency ratings (82 dB, 85 dB [2], and 86 dB). All 4 pairs sound nice but rather anemic at low volume levels. They really need some juice to hear what they're capable of and it's frustrating when you want/need to listen with the volume turned down and that magic is gone. My nicely efficient Omega's (94.5 db) sound wonderful at low volume levels. I no longer experience any of that frustration which annoyed me so.

@wolf_garcia , actually the (2001?) update flattens the low level curves somewhat. At least above 100Hz. Below that, room effects dominate anyway. So listening 10 or 20 dB below your normal listening level should reduce room distortion in the bass, but won't otherwise affect the balance enough to compensate for the tone control distortion. IMO.

But that bass boost can be fun sometimes, can't it?

superultramega,

No you are not confused. Efficient speakers are not going to have any advantage at low listening levels. There is 0 logic in that. If anything, they could be worse, as they will exacerbate any issues with distortion at low power levels. If you claim high efficiency speakers are better and need for an amp with better SQ at low volume levels, then you probably have not thought it through.

Flatter bass at lower frequencies may help w.r.t. the statements about equal loudness contours. Early bass roll-off is made worse at low levels. You may find some peaking of bass in your room response, which normally would be a negative, be turned into a positive. As pointed out, can't deny equal loudness contours.

Although great sounding systems sound better at ALL levels, you can't deny Fletcher/Munson, and you obviously can't address that without some EQ. Although my rig is running at a lower level as background music a lot of the time, I have a Schiit Loki that can deal with that but doesn't...because when I'm actively listening I turn things up to where it sounds right, and raise or lower the levels of my 2 REL subs if needed. The Loki is out of the system unless some weird recording needs help...and that's rare.

One of the best parts of this (sometimes maddening) hobby is the range of choices, ideas, thoughts, methods and such. Somewhat recently I purchased a Primare I30, wanting to experience more of what reviewers were commenting on. It's an excellent integrated, but its strength is not low volume detail based on my personal listening. It gets phenomenal as the volume increases, seems to be the same with different speakers in the mix. So, the journey continues. Boy do I love this:-)

This discussion is intriguing as most of my listening is at low volumes and it seems my existing system (Harbeth P3ESRs and vintage 1990's Rotel 120 wpc amp) is not ideal for such.  I'm looking to change out both.  What are some good examples of highly efficient bookshelf speakers, new or used, for less than $2K?  And ditto for an integrated amp with DAC to drive them for less than $2K?  I like Spendor which are more efficient than the Harbeths but are not as efficient as is being discussed in this thread.

Is someone confusing dynamic range with loudness? And with resolution? Tsk, tsk! And at low volumes one can’t get full dynamic range. You might as well get a Bose radio.

superultramega, you're not confused the most effective way to improve low level listening is loudness compensation. The first watt the last watt the watts in between can't change the way our ears work. 

Am I confused? If you want to listen at a low volume (say 60db) the only difference between high and low sensitivity speakers will be how hard your amp is working to create that 60db, no?

I have sensitive ears, and so I like to listen at low volume. No EQ, just a good room.

I use 2 pairs of the new-ish series of Quads, heroically pure power, Class A DIY solid state amps (full complementary push-pull - and BLACK). Full range ESL's are the only way to go for me, although Magnepan is a decent second.

Check out Decware. They do have some great DIY stuff like speakers and a forum. You can dig up a couple of the plans if you are paying attention. Also has some amp kits. I have two Zkit1 amps I am working on. The only complete kit he sells is the Zkit60. A 60watt solid state amp. It is on my list of future projects.

RME ADI-2 DAC has dynamic loudness compensation for low volume listening. 

A lil bit of AI will fix you up.

Your ears are NOT old enough to remember loudness.
Buchardt seems like they have figured it out.
The future.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your expertise and experiences. Gives me a ton to think about.

Not trying to open up a can of worms but I did get some low level punch when I got a dedicated circuit with only the amp on the line. I also listen mostly at low volumes. Speaker placement/room characteristics I'm sure help...but probably the thing I've noticed the most is that component matching really helps.

That said, my Primaluna Evo 400 power amp does a wonderful job with low volume bass.  
 

Mike, sitting closer is just turning up the volume. It certainly helps negating any room problems.
The beauty of having 8 foot line source dipole speakers is that you are always near field even 12 feet away. 
Irregardless of the equipment being used and the room are in you can not magically overcome the Fletcher-Munson effect. Bass and treble have to be boosted to match the volume level or you will be missing low bass and detail. 
The only way to overcome this without an advanced digital system is to adjust the volume until things sound right and there is not a single level. It depends on the way the recording was mastered. Some records don't sound right at lower levels others hurt if you play them too loud. 
This is for serious listening. For background music it really does not matter. 

All the answers are here...low ambient noise, good 1st Watt, effective tone controls for shaping the source to sound balanced at your listening level, and controlling the room's reflectivity around the speakers.  I disagree about needing high sensitivity speakers entirely.  I would say a bigger factor is to have speakers that are not lacking in bass extension, b/c at low volumes, that exacerbates the lack.  I agree with Erik in recommending looking at Yamaha...if the model has their variable loudness, like the AS701 or AS801.  Interestingly, their new higher end models drop that feature...although they do have bass and treble controls (with unspecified characteristics).  I have a vintage McIntosh C20 that has a fantastic variable loudness control that really works well.

A little expansion on some points others have made.
Higher efficiency speakers may help, amp cleaner and faster at low power may help, and room and distance can also help. Clean fast response of both Amp and speakers with minimum ringing and resonance are what can make music sound musical regardless of efficiency and power. There are low efficiency speakers that combined with the proper amp can be more musical than high efficiency speakers with any amp. Remember that speaker efficiency is just a measure of sound pressure at a reference frequency at a reference power level. It really doesn't say much about how musical the speaker is. It is only really helpful when trying to match multiple speakers in surround applications to try to even the response.  Waterfall charts can help you find speakers that you may find more musical to you regardless of efficiency, and they will likely sound more musical regardless of the volume level.

My own observations and experience are that you need close to 20 db range above ambient noise level for music to start becoming musical. 30-40db starts to get real. Below that you can tell it is music, but nothing you do will make it musical as in detail, depth, soundstage and revealing. Loudness compensation does little to change that, just helps hear some frequencies that are masked by the background.

So the real questions are what is your background noise level, and what level above that do you consider low volume.

I am in an apartment and have a bg noise level of 40-45dbA at the minimum. It can commonly be 50-55dbA with appliances and fans running in my apartment and adjoining ones. In my main listening area with minimum bg noise level, volume at 65dbA peak begins to sound musical and gets better up to 85-90dbA. Above that room reflections and reactions start to counter any increased musicality.
In another room I have a work station and a near field setup. With computer and drives running the bg level is higher on average, but since I am near field, 20 dbA above ambient is not only fairly musical, but has some depth and height, no sub or loudness control needed.

YAMMV

I plan on getting a new Luxman integrated amp soon and one of the things I like about the Luxman is that it has a loudness button on the remote. My old Denon integrated amp from the 80s had a loudness button as well. Not sure why newer amps don't have a loudness button---it's definitely good for lower listening levels.