Loudspeakers have we really made that much progress since the 1930s?

1930s the largest corps in the world spent significant resources on loudspeaker development. Today very small corps invest small sums reinventing much of what was designed then.

Sure! Fits fine in mine and my 1/2 lansing 18w5 fits even in my office for near field use  http://www.audioheritage.org/images/lmco/photos/products/shearer/shearer2.jpg

Hello and thxs for replying. The dome was used in FC compression drivers in the 1920s Walter H. Schottky developed the very first ribbon loudspeaker that used diodes about 1925. Wool tar lead cork rubber high mass all were used back in the 1930s and are still considered advanced today and you will find those materials in some of the most costly designs today. As far as rare earths while very high gauss for size they mostly are aranged in arrays and have little mass, since most transducers today that use such are designed for high power this reduced mass over alnico or ferrites can cause thermal compression. This causes listening fatigue why many systems sound great for 30-40 mins then you had enough.

MBL are ribbons well designed ribbons but ribbon techs near a 100 years old

Electrostatics and planars are all 1930s inventions. And for others small to me that sounds worse than many 1930s designs isn't a advancement in sound quality but a advancement in convenience  and  cost cutting etc. Think a few have missed my point and keep pointing to what they think is a modern idea but was created in the 1920-30s 

The plasma driver can be traced to 1900 and William Duddles singing arc The point I tried and failed to make is were is the modern equivalent in invention of something new not just refinement of very old tech to a the ribbon, dynamic, planar, electrostatic, plasma etc. Sure we have the 1950s bending wave transducer like Manger but I feel as far as design advancement we have greatly stagnated since the early spurt in designing for audio use. Pro or in home.

 I started with modern dabbled in vintage. I wanted to understand the past and learn more about loudspeaker design by exploring the past. I never went into collecting vintage with the mindset that it was better only that it was interesting. I would use my audiophile systems as mains and mostly ended up listening alone. The Shearers my Lansings and WE 13As even my Racon in mono make people dance sound more like real music. I have loudspeakers about from much of the history of cinema and many other famous home designs. I also have some of the most modern. My personal hands on experience with designing manufacturing, collecting, restoring, studying loudspeakers and loudspeaker design made me ponder the ? And I honestly still think we have lost much of the ability to innovate and are more just evolving loudspeaker tech. And much of what the past did so so well has been forgotten..

Mapman whats missing-  realistic sound quality, the ability to allow listener to feel the emotion of the music. The ability to easily hear the mix ie pick out the individual instruments and vocals along with the added studio work. Realistic image size and dynamic range.The at ease at any SPL the ability to sound wonderful out of sweet spot and through out home. Extreme lack of listening fatigue. A clear real sounding vocal ability the ability to do this all on massively low power. Extreme reliability and ease of service in field by owner. Today most all of this is missing and if present only a small part of it.

Vintage designs have proven there reliability modern has not. Functioning after near 80 years to atmasphere doesn’t show reliability? Then I dont know what standards hes using. Also arent you involved with marketing Classic Audio Reproductions? So maybe as Upton Sinclair said it { “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”} 

Atmasphere cant do bass right! Maybe wee ones dont but full sized sure do. Less detailed maybe if you dont add a tweeter keep in mind these designs were only good to 8khz. Dont handle power well! What the heck dude that one boggles my mind its so so wrong come visit so I can prove you wrong on all accounts lol.

atmasphere EVs, Klipsch, Altec and JBL all are not 1930s. The Altec A7 you use as a example of poor bass its again not a 1930s design but is a affordable down sized design so expecting that to have deep bass and to be a example of design faults from the 1930s is very off. And you say this- Most older speakers simply can’t reproduce it right- certainly nothing from the 30s can- again since you admit no experience with 1930s how can you say such a all encompassing thing. Your argument about old wiring well I see cloths back in and costly as all heck and noted more than a few modern builders that are using screw type connections and bakelite. And you mention a 98db loudspeaker that good to 20hz I would like to see that since Hoffmans iron law it would have to be giant. So thanks for replying etc but you haven't changed my mind.

My tungars on my WE 13A dont hum again saying all tungars hum is simply not true. Also the classic audio reproduction is using 1930s tech its just using modern materials.  A speaker like your CAR is a very good example of 1930s tech modernized. My point is that today we are basically building modernized versions of the pasts work. Your example of a BE dome doesnt negate the fact that its a dome FC compression driver and that is 1920s tech. Other comments about better materials or computer aided design forget that they are all still dynamic ribbon planar estat comp etc all early inventions that we use modern material science to supposedly improve. We dont have the innovation today and that is something I truly believe we dont take chances our design is limited by the power of computer software not the unlimited power of the human mind. Thus my statement was have-we-really-made-that-much-progress-since-the-1930s and I still think we have not.

Have run vintage systems with all matching gear that I tried to get as orignal as possible and I have used modern as well as combinations of both taking the best of both worlds. That being said a all orignal restored WE RCA Klangfilm etc 1930-40s system would shock most audiophiles and a few times at shows such systems get very high praise. Taking the best of both worlds to me is the best approach if ultimate sound quality is your goal and also if you find this style of system to be acceptable. Many do not we all have our personal tastes biases experiences and since costly one has to get hands on- they are mostly large  and not veneered since meant for  commercial use  greatly limits appeal. But if wanting to try many newer theater pulls available many cheap that with a few mods do great service in a home. Some of the monitors RCA and WE made between 1930-40s are compact and would be fairly easy to get in most homes since cool artdeco style but those are costly and rare indeed.

The question was have we made much progress since the 30s not whats best or what fits homes best or what costs least or what modern consumers enjoy today but have we made much progress since and I still feel we have not since this is what my experience shows. This is not my bias towards collecting or vintage I design modern have for many years before I got into vintage to learn about the past. Didn't get into vintage because I thought it would perform better I honestly thought it wouldn't but was proven wrong. If a 30s loudspeaker design with slight changes can compete with the best of modern I know of no other field were that maybe true. Thus why I posted.

After owning many Altec a2 a4 a5 a7 as well as others and also having the ability to compare the Altec a4 to Shearer. A a4 is nearly the same loudspeaker design as a shearer accept for the massive W bin of Shearers. The 210 cabinet isn't a upgrade over a older W bin doesn't have the extension or the kick. It did allow for cheaper build lighter cabinets and higher crossover point so less powerful mag and smaller mid horn but a wee bit better extension in treble its a good example of bean counter design right down to the battleship grey WW2 surplus paint. As I collected altecs I notice the build quality decreasing towards the 1960s some cabinets the adhesive was placed about 2 inch from seam with less bracing used. Still a Altec a2 a4 a5 are wonderful loudspeakers with a few upgrades will compete with most of whats available today.

 I’d bet that you couldn’t find a single speaker manufacturer who would be interested in doing reproductions of speakers from the 30s. -http://www.toneimports.com/lmaudio/lmaudioHome.html   http://stores.ebay.com/Angels-Western-Sound  http://we16ahorn.blogspot.com/

The Shearers have been set up with RCA FC  from the 1930s RCA alnicos from the 1940s have also run Altecs EV in them. Run a few different multicells inc the 18 cell. Had TAD 4001 in Iwata mids on them for awhile. I have a large collection of horns loudspeakers about old, new, prototypes, designs for other manufacturers. I do have  much experience mostly all hands on in my systems with the best of old and new. My point that I still think others miss is that by the 1930s most of the design of loudspeakers was sorted and today not as much innovation exists in loudspeaker design. And by chasing the small thus requiring high power we have lost something is what we lost more than what we gain in small size convenience? that is up to you to decide I already did.

You can easily add a part or 2 and bring a 1930s loudspeaker system into modern times but you cant make a 1930s phone a smart phone can you? Never said we made no progress just very little. And if tomcy6 would look about google he would see complete loudspeakers available I know nothing I can post to change a close mind. So enjoy your opinion on what these things sound like I will enjoy the real things. I also will enjoy and advance the best of modern. Happy listening.

Tomcy6 Were did I say this-  no progress in speaker technology since the 30s and that we should all own 30s speakers.-I mention how little progress in loudspeaker design since the 30s and never once did I suggest to anyone that all people should own 1930s loudspeakers. I also never mentioned that the Shearers are the best loudspeakers in the world. I do wonder if your reading the thread and comprehending it since you jump to such wrong all encompassing personal conclusions. I really could care less what you or anyone else runs for a loudspeaker. I am just relating my hands on real world experiences not trying to sway people one way or another..

Experience trumps conjecture. So while its great so many have opinions  without supporting experience its just noise.

I also run systems with combinations of vintage and modern. Running on modern amplification and with modern sources. A upgraded 30-60s design can easily compete with modern efforts and in many cases are the better option.

I revive this thread since my findings and feelings on this issue haven't changed and I have noticed a increase in interest in horns more offering horn designs and more media attention. Much of whats offered are re-worked vintage designs some even using old drivers or replicas of such. I see reviewers exploring vintage horns comparing them to modern loudspeaker designs.  So it does seem like we made limited progress and are re exploring the past for design ideas for future horn systems.

At home I run 3-4 systems while I do run modern loudspeakers many advanced for my own enjoyment I run horn systems. Most are combinations of old and new but when I can I try  to experience the best of vintage stock. If I have stock I mod so I can reverse and return to such. My office mains are community leviathan mid bass horns with 4- 515b woofers modified TAD 2001 on a giant community 10 cell multicell horn. I use costly passive networks but otherwise this could have been set up in 1970s. I do run a massive modern sub built to look like a old RCA MI booth monitor just much larger. My main system is 2-RCA MI shearer horns Viva amp I again run audiophile passive and use with fostex t500amk2 or faital driver on small 15 cell. 3rd systems 1920s RCA W bin with RCA radial horns and drivers and faital on matching tweeter horn again modern networks I use this at times with a massive front loaded bass horn. My garage system is a giant 1920s pair of RCA horns I used the RCA drivers at times but enjoy swapping in modern drivers my RCA drivers are  95 years old and I like to keep them functioning. I am all over social media you can google search if you want far too many pics.

inna house sized no shed sized yes if you want sub bass. Still if you look at how modern loudspeakers generate bass a large horn hitting 45hz without roll off at incredibly low distortion levels pretty much trumps the  high excursion, massive power, low bass by resonance approach and its  high distortion levels, limited dynamic range and associated  fatigue factors. The horns weakness maybe in coloration but at the listening levels homes use these massive designs are just coasting along.           

Rice and Kellogg, Harry Olson,John Hilliard, John Blackburn much of whats available today they invented in the 1920s-30s thus why I started the thread how much progress has really been made when the best of today is lucky to be as good as the best at that time and is most likely a evolution of these 1930s designers work.

Atmasphere Capacitors have existed in some form since the 1740s silver and gold are not advancements just evolution of early design. Your TAD drivers all based on early 1920s designs,the horn of the CAR is just a evolution of a 1940s design. OTL amplifier is from the 1950s sure you improved but you didn't create invent. Thus my point about real progress progress in orignal design and thoughts. This to me seems missing today.

One does have to take a financial risk when working with or bringing out new innovations could be a bit of corporate repression of design in favor of safe bets thus more profit? Could be that reproduction of sound for human use can only be effectively generated by a limited num of combinations thus replication? Maybe humanity copies and improves more than invents and innovates? Maybe my perceived biases do not allow me to see or hear all the massive innovations in audio reproduction?  

kosst_amojan -Zonda is a evolution of whats considered the 1st sports car 1914 Vauxhall.  Zonda did not create the idea of a sporting car it evolved its design based on the many many sports cars before it. What are Zondas original  advancements to automobile  tech? Its just near the pinnacle of a very advanced vintage technology.

inna we do rely  much on computers for design might be why so much made today seems to not be-able to give soul or life to music and that we keep mining the past a time when humans designed for ideas horn speakers, tubes, LPs, tape all still being made why if modern tech is so advanced? are we looking for something that is not available otherwise?    If I sim loudspeaker designs I can hear how wrong some of the sims can be in reality. I trust what  I am hearing thus make empirical changes to design to get what I want out of it not what works well within the confines of a limited software program.  Might be others put more trust into the computer end and less on the human and with art like music that might be a issue. After all you are trying to trick human senses into hearing actual music,sound-stage and feeling any emotions the music generates. 

kosst agree that we may just be copying much of what came before with slight improvements and innovations with time and agree this could go as far back as fires discovery or farther. The reason that I point to the 1930s is that most of what we use today in loudspeakers was created in a  early spurt of innovation driven by early theater and telephone technology.. Might be  the telephones popularity and theaters going from silent to talkies that stimulated so much innovation but also at the time the largest corporations in the world put massive resources into creating it. This new technology also attracted some of the great minds at the time. Today audio technology design is of extremely low priority and is mostly done digitally. And is no longer attracting the best and brightest. I understand that being engaged by music is a fading activity and I really shouldn't be surprised by the lack of innovation and small time nature of companies that market such. We are a niche. 

larryi, Glad CAR exists and its a great option but there product in no way obsoletes vintage and I find it a bit funny that CAR was used as a example of advanced modern design since much of what they offer is cool modernized vintage design. And that would support my orignal assumption of how little progress has been made since the 1930s.

koksst_amojan I cant answer a non sequitur. Threads about progress in loudspeaker design since the 1930s and maybe a lack of innovation or similarity of design in such things. 

shadorne    Horns have lower distortion than conventional drivers faster transient response than conventional drivers,are easier for amplifiers to drive can produce higher SPL than conventional drivers also exhibit greater dynamic range. and radiation pattern control. Consider much of the music that audiophiles collect was mastered on Altec, TAD, RCA and other horn systems. And many modern studios are still using horn monitors.

Atmasphere -Look at 1920s WE 555- 1930s 596A compression driver your saying TADs design isn't based on these early compression drivers?  Whats so different besides materials used?                                   I never knew you invented OTL I assumed it was created in 1954 by Mr Cecil Hall for EV. 

Phusis,{From my chair we'd need to re-visit these older horn designs more frequently, and build/design further on from them to truly make progress}  Much of modern design is about making things smaller maybe with loudspeakers if ultimate performance is end goal we might have taken the small approach a bit to far. 

Shadorne nothings perfect all things have issues horns many benefits greatly off set the weakness. Pointing to a bit of 2nd order as a deal killer is also maybe not the best weakness that horns have to focus on. Also if you read till the end Jean lists that many of the horns are low distortion. He also was marketing product so had a bit of a bias towards his own work. Still Jean was one other the good guys in high eff design his horns are wonderful to use but I still prefer my older multicells. Also most all into horns know of JMLC  http://horns-diy.pl/en/horns/jmlc/jmlc-400/

Shadorne You can say what ever you like toss out any num you feel. As long as you had fun its all good happy listening! 

After receiving a good num of modern state of the art transducers and horns I still stand by my statement that we have not made much progress in sound quality since the early spurt of development during the 1930s even the newest designs I have received have more in common with 1930s tech sure we have modern material tech but many of these modern materials are not better than the old just cheaper to use and do not hold up near as well. I just had a manufacturer send me a FC driver they just developed its near same as an old WE driver just computer optimized. In the 1930s the largest corporations on earth and some of the best minds designed loudspeakers this has not and will not happen again and it's why that tech has held up so well and is basically still in use today.

I've worked with a lot of mangers and have heard other types. I see a good num of design flaws in the Gobel and its nothing new. 

http://www.itishifi.com/2010/05/western-electric-mother-of-all-coax.html

Fostex has been using a more advanced version for surround a hyperbolic paraboloid for over 20 years don't see were Paradigms doing anything new at all.