You need to listen to some music, otherwise your EMF may back up on you and then you'll have to see a doctor! Good luck and Godspeed my friend.
12 responses Add your response
You probably have observed the passive radiator used in some speaker systems. It moves just about as much as the active driver. If you replace the passive radiator with a driver (having a magnet and voice coil) it will generate voltage as you have observed. An interesting experiment is to put a capacitive or inductive load on the undriven driver and see how you can tune the speaker system. A short circuit will prevent (or minimize) cone movement. A capacitor will allow movement at low frequency but not high. An inductor will prevent cone movement at low frequency.
Back EMF is a phenomenon that has been used often for marketing reasons: to praise one's product (let's say a poweramp), because of it's handling of back EMF. But what does it actually mean? Nothing. Back EMF is a highly overrated phenomenon that doesn't correlate well with actual sound quality, like skin effect with audio cables (skin effect is almost non existent within the audio frequency band).
Chris - portion of Back EMF generated by the speaker can get to the other speaker (tweeter to midrange). Amplifier would "short it" but there is about 5uH inductance of the speaker cable in between (and amp's output impedance is higher at higher frequencies). I use shotgun biwired cables and have slightly cleaner sound with more "air".
Fascinating discussion, and one that does not deserve only four replies before it is consigned to the Audiogon archives. Thanks for bringing it up, Kirkus.
Dazzdax please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the current flow across a transistor depends on the potential difference between the collector and the emitter. If the potential difference is dropped (by a negative voltage applied by back EMF to the emitter, for example), then current flow would be less. My understanding also, is that the magnitude of back EMF is fairly high, particularly in active setups where there is no passive crossover in between the amp and speaker.
Amfibius, you should address this question to Kijanki, because he is the expert in this field. The current flow through a transistor is related to the current between base and emitter. This way I don't see why a negative voltage generated by back EMF could alter the collector flow. This is a highly technical matter. I've read somewhere that back EMF could be used to increase the efficiency of an electromotor!
To me back EMF has no significant meaning in case of home audio. Unless you need multiple speakers that have BIG woofers, like in the PA setting.
Amfibius - It does interfere with an output to some degree. Most of amps contain negative feedback, forcing desire voltage on the output in spite of the current fluctuations. In one way it is beneficial helping with things like back EMF or intermodulation (linearizing output devices) but often creates other problems. One problem mentioned before was puting more power (by holding voltage steady) when speaker impedance drops to few ohms (resonanse) at certain frequencies, the other is transient intermodulation (TIM) when feedback is not fast enough (delays in the signal path) to respond to higher slew rate at the input - causing transistors to go into saturation. Small charge is trapped at semiconductor junctions and transistors need more time to recover making unpleasant sound.
How real or serious is effect of the back EMF? I have no experience - we have to ask speaker people.
Hi Amfibius . . . Dazzdax is correct in stating the classic analysis of a bipolar transistor's operation, as being based on the current flow from the base to the emitter. I happen to agree with Douglas Self's assertion that this is quite a useless view, because in application it's the base-to-emitter VOLTAGE that really matters. But this is a digression, and it means absolutely nothing to the end user of a finished audio product.
Where I feel that the typical audiophile arm-chair analysis of back-EMF becomes absurd is a complete disregard of the frequency component of the energy in question. It's not like while your're relaxing to some Brahms, your errant woofer suddenly gets a hankering to jump back and forth for a few cycles at 10,000 Hz, and your amplifier better be prepared to short out that energy! Assuming that you'd care, because you'd hear such abberant behavior so clearly from the driver itself, that any effect on the amplifier stability is a moot point.
Thus, the problem with Kijanki's point about back-EMF getting from the woofer into the other drivers is that if the crossover is doing it's job, the back-EMF will be too low in frequency to ever make it to the tweeter. And if it's not, the tweeter has so much more to worry about with the low-frequency energy coming from the amplifier, than with the woofer's low-frequency back-EMF.
However, if we view back-EMF simply as a contributor to amplifier load, rather than as a mysterious external force that the amplifier must dampen, than subjects such as the current through the output transistors, and especially that touchy subject of negative feedback, can be properly analyzed, rather than simply conjectured about.
Dazzdax, thank you for the correction. I meant to say base to emitter, just got my terminologies confused for a moment :) My question really is - if back EMF applies a negative voltage to the emitter, AND if amplifier current flow depends on the voltage across the base and emitter - is it possible for back EMF to reduce current flow? Or do I have it wrong again?
Kijanki your answer went over my head a little. Reading your response carefully, it appears to me as if you were describing conditions that cause a transistor to go into saturation. That is fine, I understand that. But I am not sure how back EMF fits into the picture?
Kirkus, my understanding is that back EMF is only detrimental to amplifier load. I was not even aware that some people argue that back EMF causes high frequency aberrations :)
Assuming the most conventional (emitter-follower) output stage, then yes, energy that's applied at the amplifier output will affect the current flow through the output transistors. If this wasn't true, then the amplifier would have an infinately-high output impedance, and could never transfer any power to the loudspeaker. So the real question is, what exactly are the current requirements of the amplifier . . . so we can effectively design it to work well to fulfill those requirements.
There is really only one mechanism that allows ANY solid-state amplifier to be coupled directly to a loudspeaker: negative feedback. Even in a supposedly "zero feedback" design, there is intrinsic local negative feedback in the output topology. Think about it . . . if the output is derived from the emitters, and signal is applied to the bases, and the output current is determined by base-to-emitter voltage . . . then applying a signal "backwards" at the output will attempt to change the base-to-emitter voltage as well . . . which will in turn cause the current through the output devices to change in an opposite fashion.
So if we're to understand fully how to make amplifiers work correctly, we MUST have a coherent, duplicatable model of the loudspeaker as a load, otherwise the only thing we can use to design with is whimsey, credo, and dogma.
Oh wait, this the high-end audio world. Just ignore all of the above . . . . sorry.
Kirkus - crossover is far from being perfect and Back EMF from tweeter to midrange or midrange to tweeter at the frequency close to crossover point (probably around 2.5kHz) gets thru. Amplifier's DF is limited at higher frequencies and cable inductance brings almost 0.1 Ohm (2.5kHz). I am not talking about major effects - just enough to make biwired connection to sound more "airy" and cleaner.
Amfibius - I mentioned TIM only to show that making amplifier 100% imune to back EMF and other loading effects is not a good thing.