Looking for tonearm inspiration

@atmasphere : No I don't thing not by a second that my english is ok, I know is prety bad but this is not the real true issue.

R.

@atmasphere  : I not only understand what mijo said in the post I was refer to and before he posted his " black thread " fenomenal discovery for the audio world analog lovers ! ! last post.

My last post is exactly as is or if you like: you need a very well damped tonearm to match a cartridge, not enough to stays in the ideal resonant frequency range. Easy.

R.

Dear @atmasphere : You can match top cartridges with a tonearm only if the tonearm is well damped as better damped as better the matching with the cartridge ( any ), period.

As in any good to excellent MUSIC Hall a room/system will performs the best as the bass frequency range be handled better.
I mean that as the better your room/system bass range as the better all the quality performance of the overall frequency range.

Thinks happens that as better damp in the tonearm as better the bass range quality response. No damping then the whole room/system performance will be poor for say the least. No matters the other links in the system. Bass range is dominant for high quality performance levels and silicon damping is welcomed in the V, MAX 282 or Triplanar.

Btw, @mijostyn you like to talk but you don't give yet an answer to the question. Why dead silence?

R.

@mijostyn : "  everyone understood what I meant except you. "

then every one is stupid but me, yes but me. Like it or not.

R.

Dear @mijostyn :  "  If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. "

I don't know what you are talking about or what mean with properly matched. If you refered to the cartridge/tonearm frequency range resonance in between then you really don't know what you are talking about.

Do you already compared in the same system the Thownshend Excalibur tonearm against other top contemporary tonearm with matched top LOMC cartridge?

"  features a tonearm damping trough filled with silicon fluid which dampens tonearm movement at the headshell.  " 

https://audiotraveler.wordpress.com/tag/townshend/

Differences for the better are not smaller but makes a paramount differences for the best quality performance of any tonearm you listened in your audio life.

Any tonearm develops every kind of distortions during play. Distortions/resonances that comes from the cartridge it self, the tonearm bearing, the tonearm mount support, the TT, the tonearm wand it self, feedback, etc, etc. and we need that any tonearm be very well damped to avoid/put those resonances at minimum to enhance our play MUSIC experiences and be nearer to the recording.

Any don't damped resonances in the tonearm it self will degrade the precious cartridge signal.

I owned and own non-damped tonearm like the FR and tonearms as the SME V and the great MAX 282 where you have the choice to listen engaged silicon damping or not and I owned both tonearms at the same time and I listened to both arms for many time with out that silicon damping because for me the sound was more " alive " when the damping in some ways " dull " a little the listen experiences.

That happened till I understand what I was listened with out damping and what with silicon damping and what I was listening with out damping was only higher distortion levels from here came that " alive " false enjoyment.

I have to say that both arms with out damping are more or less well damped designs because the build materials used into.

With all my respect to any gentleman: it's stupid to listen a silicon damped tonearm with out damping but human beens  like to make stupid things.


Tonearm damping is a necessity like it or not, the point is not what you like or what like your friend the important issue is MUSIC. I left my stupidity to many years ago, every one learn but there are people never learn.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @billwojo : The mechanism to set up the VTF on all FR tonearm is a mysery and develops a lot of distortions to our beloved cartridge signal.

Look, with all respect Mr. Ikeda or has a very low knowledge levels as tonearm designer or just does not cares about but caRES ONLY ON BUSINES$.

In cartridges is the same but the cantilever less LOMC cartridges as the REX 9.
His more regarded by audiophiles were th the series integrated headshell 7s ( including 702. ) but you know something that design is a monolitic one where you can't change Azymuth even if you need it, you can't change the overhang even if you need it and you are married with the very old internally headshell wires and that design very well regarded by like here with poor knowledge levels.
I was one of them because I owned at least 3 models including the 702 till I learned.

People like more distortions than true MUSIC. Pity and pity that some audiophiles never learn on the critical and important audio issues.

R.

Dear @tomic601  : No where but with the lucky owners that bougth it. In the past we builded specially to custom order and were custom made.

You can listen ( up-graded version. ) at my place in México but you can't get it.

If my Essential 3180 been today in the market with competition as the top of the line coming from FM Acoustics , Boulder, D'angostino,  dartZeel or the 4 chasis CH ( set you back: 90K. The Boulder 60K. ) and I named these phonolinepreamps because the Essential is a real challenge for any of them then its price will comes around say 50K ( at least. ).

If you want it even for higher price I'm not sure to be involved again on the manufacture again.

Thank's to ask for.

R.

Dear @knollbrent  : "  FR64fx is one of my favorites too..." 

Along the other FR and the 345 you own all FR/ikeda are perhaps the worst qualituy performance tonearm design ever ( yes, it looks fine but at least me I don't buy because the " look ".), I owned both FR and Ikeda ones.

Problem is that those designs are undamped/way resonant and second are balanced designs and just rings as a " bell " using a non-adequated mechanism to set the VTF ( @billwojo . )

You said you own the Lustre GST 801 that it's a balanced design using a rigth mechanism to set the VTF, this has a name: engineering and knowledge levels that Ikeda just has not or forgot it.

You own good vintage tonearms ( but the FR/Ikeda ) but instead of that PUA-7 you need the Sony PUA-237/282 and you don't own yet the best vintage tonearm ever: MAX 237/282.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear Dover : I don't owned the Scintillas and only was an example and from what I remember about it does not sounds auwful. Things could be that you are a tube audiophile and remember that we are talking of the Dr3-VHC ampp that was designed to many years ago and certainly not up to the quality performance levels of more comporany amplifiers.

Please don't have a any doubt that if I know something is about MUSIC sound, Period.

Btw, with which amps you experienced lovely sound through the Scintillas and with which kind of music and at around which SPLs?, thank's in advance.

Btw, the top Apogee really " dance " and I don't know why Apogee disappears, pity.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@billwojo : atmasphere started about.
R.

@atmasphere if not headroom explain how those 25 watts can handle the Scintilla. Forgeret don’t explain nothing.

SS amplifiers with over 250 watts can´t do it ( not even with 400 watts at 8 0hms. ) and in the other side I never listen " your SS " clipping tale any time in that Classé or in my 20.6 or any decent contemporary SS amplifiers even at measured 105 SPLs.

The Classé Audio headroom was measured by JA and you can ask about D.Reich, not me. The 20.6s has no headroom as are fully regulated input to output and puts 800 watts at 1 omh and yes 1.6K watts at 0.5 ohms.

I told you other times that perhaps you belongs to the darkest side of the corrupted AHEE defending what has no defense at all supporting archaic technology used by the very low levels customers have and taking advantage of that ignorance levels but you are in that darkest hole because I never see Lamm or Air Tigth or Audio Research manufacturers shoting as you in any internet audio forum.

You are makiong a huge damage to the true music lovers only because is your way of living.

Of course this is a free world.

Enjoy your bs and o something nice to the AHEE other that your same tales.

Btw, blow-up tubes experiences with amps: one was with Atmasphere monoblocks in Philadelphia even the owner call you and I was there because I was hosted in his home, in F.Crowder home in Houston with a unit 3 times higher price that any of your items, at A.Porter in Dallas with a unit one channel down, here in my country a Conrand Johnson running Wilson speakers. In all those ocassions the owner system are top ones even at least two of them over the 250K. Do you know when I living not several experiences but one experience as those ones with SS electronics? NEVER.

Yes, tubes is synonimous of bs.

I take no single idea from atmasphere items. Our Essential 360 as our tonearm are self designs from zero and with no single advise from any where and no copy of anything. You are totally wrong on this as in many other things.

No it's not advertasing: all the gentlemans with whom I talked in the times of the developed of the Essential 3160 all them refuse to buy it and all the lucky gentlemans that bougth it I never beeen in touch with them they asked by email and bougth it with no advertasing.

R.

atmasphere : even that in the past in WBF we had the same kind of dialogue on the BS tube electronics against the superlative SS technology where I asked and you said that because you designed SS you already knew the problems with an then your choice for tubes.

Please Don´t ask me but to Prof. Johnson of Spectral or Dan'agostino of Krell in the past and D'angostino today electronics or even to N.Pass an all of them will tell you that all their pure class A amplifiers are non-feedback and you can ask too the level of headroom on each one top models that nevers clip.

Years ago I owned the Classé Audio DR3-VHC to run Apogee Scintillas that gone down to 1 ohm and even lower than that and the speakers were low sensitivity down 84db..

The DR3_VHC is a stereo  pure class A non-feedback design with only 25 watts output power and a headroom of 6db.
Well this amplifier runs the speakers at high SPL in fantastic way. Btw, the other amps with the capacity to handle the Scintilla and any other today top speakers are the ML 20.6 monoblocks ( that I own. ) fully regulated balanced design pure class A non-feedback 100watts output doubling that level output down to 0.5 ohm ( almost runs a short circuit condition ). I think Levinso knows something about SS designs that you just do not.

"   overload character- clip it and the distortion is instantly audible. "

You live in the past that kind of clipping just does not exist in SS today electronics even in the years of my Classé Audio. 
It's not only totally inaudible but almost does not exist even if you try to you can't because the designs are very well care about.

@atmasphere  this is the 2020 year ! !. 

 Tubes at any audio home electronics is bs. and unfortunatelly you can't do nothing about but to follow sale your electronics to the mediocrity/average of the audiophiles that were teached and learned through the corrupted AHEE where obviously you belongs as me and every one in audio. Period.

Our Essential 3160 is an SS where you nopt even can dream with:



" This, our self design, Essential 3160 use bipolar transistors in two gain stages for MC phono stage and FETs for MM phono stage in the same two gain stages, the Essential 3160 is not only a phono stage that you must to connect to a line preamp ( where you need an additional interconnect cable that do a degradation to the signal ).

No, the Essential 3160 is an integral one unit (with out step-up transformers ).

Where there is no compromise, the MC and MM stages are very critical and needs to be independent. Each phono stage ( MC and MM. ) is designed for its self precise and specific needs.

Our design is a discrete Non-feedback, direct coupled, pure class A , current mode, true balanced ( differential ) input to output, dual mono design and fully regulated input to output.

The dual mono design only share the chasis but both channels are totally independent from each other even in the dual mono external power supply ( that use too a pure silver Kimber Kable power cord. ) that is so important to the performance on this phonolinepreamp, it has separate attenuator volume control and separate phono/line switch, impedance changes by solder resistors.

Inside parts: teflon Cu capacitors, " naked " Vishay resistors,mathed transistors , no internal wires ( every part is soldered directly to the four layers circuit boards. ), etc....., only the best neutral non-sound parts ( no step-up transformers, no head amps, etc.. ) and in the critical stages with tolerances at 0.001%.

The RIAA equalization is a critical issue.

A developed proprietary technique guarantee an accurate RIAA de-emphasis. This technique assures an initial RIAA accuracy of +/- 0.011 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz ( Both channels ), resulting in a neutral phono stage that reproduces exactly what the cartridge generates that are in the recording.  

The result is a preamplifier combining the purity and transparency of a passive preamplifier with the speed, dynamics and drive of an SS active preamplifier ( Truer to the recording. )

To round off the preamplifier's RIAA capabilities, its has a switchable 3.18 us turnover point Neumann pole. ) to compensate for the cutting head preemphasis roll-off during the recording.



Some specs:

- RIAA eq. deviation from 20 Hz to 20 Khz: 0.011 db ( both channels )

Frequency range to: DC to 1,5 MHz. ( both channels. )

Clean gain: Adjustable to 100 db

Signal to noise ratio: better than 85dbA in MC stage refered to 0.5mv. and according the standard/norm/rule: EIA/CEA-490-A , the same spec for MM but reffered to 5.0mv and 110db at 1 V ( unity gain ) in line stage. ( Both channels .)

Slew rate: 350 V/mseg.

Common mode rej.: 150db. ( Both channels. )

Distortion: 0.002% ( Both channels. )

Dynamic range: 131db.

Crosstalk: better than 140db.

Input overload: MC: 20 mVrms @ 1 kHz (High-gain), 40mVrms @ 1 kHz (Low-gain)

MM: 550 mVrms @ 1 kHz.  ""


That is what own a customer from you.

My home unit is even better: up-graded/up-dated.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @luisma31 : ""  so he certainly hates Ralph's amps too. ""

Totally wrong, I don't hate any audio item. The issue is that tubes can't honor MUSIC no matter what. Period.

"  Have you listened to Ralph's amps Raul? "

Of course I did it.

I only speak and give my opinion with first hand experiences.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @snackeyp  : Like you I had with one cartridge a trouble with the VTA due to the V tapered arm wand but not something to avoid this SME tonearm because the tapered design ( between other things. ) helps to avoid standing waves in the arm wand and helps too to lower the effective tonearm mass.

All in all the V is good tonearm.

R.

Dear @snackeyp  :  The V is better than the IV.vi, the V comes with ABEC 9 bearing instead ABEC 7. Yes that can makes a difference.

I like the Kleos and I mounted in several tonearms including the V and at each top tonearm combination the Kleos performs different due that all tonearms resonates in different frequency range and its damping levels are different too.

If you mount your Kleos in the Kuzma 4Point or the Reed you will like it too and who know maybe will like it more than with the Triplanar that's a good tonearm too.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : "  There are tonearms at 1/2 the price that are superior in al...""

For you statement seems to me that you have deep first hand experiences with the SAEC tonearm ( all have the same design . ) and probably with different cartridges.

Is it that way? because if you don't have first hand experiences with then your statement means almost nothing and through that post you are " degrading " the SAEC tonearms.

R.

The 4700 is the same SAEC 407-23 model and any of those tonearm manufacturers you named could envy the SAEC quality building levels.

Btw, the SME 3012 tonearm uses that same " archaic " anti-skate mechanism and I have to say works really fine but I name the 3012 because in the last 2 years is considered byt top system audiophiles as one if not the best tonearm out there.

Tango is a Thailand based audiophile whom own not one but 3 American Sound TTs where has mounted around 8 tonearms 3 are the 50K+ SAT and 3 the " archaic " SME 3012. He owns several cartridges as: Goldfinger Statement, Opus 1, top VDH, Etsuro and the like and you know what: he prefers the 3012 over the SAT ! ! ( I think his sytem is over 500K+ easily. )

R.

@mijostyn : "  did answer your question ...."  Really?

Again read it all because I asked not one question over what he posted. He posted:

""  "  SME deals with the reliability issue by having physically larger bearings. So their arms tend to have more friction..""

I asked for facts that can support it and his answer was and is: dead silence as in other of my questions.

Never mind, I don't care any more because as almost always he has nothing on hand on this regards. 

R.

I have to say you that I owned the two SAEC top models in its catalogue: 506 and the 8000.

R.

Dear @rpeluso : These are the correct alignments parameters you need to make to set up the 308/cartridge ( either: Löfgren A or B. ):

  https://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_calculator_pro.php?arm1=Arm+1&l1=el&a1lv=240&a1=la&oh1v=&oa1v=&arm2=Lofgren+A&l2=el&a2lv=240&a2=la&oh2v=&oa2v=&arm3=Lofgren+B&l3=el&a3lv=240&a3=lb&oh3v=&oa3v=&arm4=Stevenson&l4=el&a4lv=240&a4=st&oh4v=&oa4v=&rs=12&rsv=&og=iec1&ogv=&ig=jis&igv=&cal=y&submit=calculate

Forgeret about the mounting parameters SAEC has, is the worst alignment for any cartridge.
So you need to mount the 308 as it was the first time but with either of those parameters in that link.

R.

Dear @rpeluso : Here that stabilizer. Improves your tonearm quality level performance:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAEC-AS-500E-Tonearm-Arm-Stabilizer/401993600721?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180816085401%26meid%3D01bb2998364b435484e697d7de6950df%26pid%3D100970%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D401993600721%26itm%3D401993600721%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DSAEC&_trksid=p2380057.c100970.m5481&_trkparms=pageci%3A46e617f1-d8c6-11ea-a9b9-74dbd1808644%7Cparentrq%3Ac9a177e41730a9cca7ebff99ffffcd31%7Ciid%3A1


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@mijostyn : "  Plus I'm hoping to get a deal on one of his amps some day: "

a BS of design.

R.

Dear @fsellet : I owned the IV and latter on changed for the V where the bearing balls are ABEC 9 and performs better for its additional facilities.

R.

Dear @rpeluso : Your SAEC 308 has a quality build level second to none.

It's characteristics does not changed over the vintage same model and due that's a removable headshell design you can try different headshells build material to test each one with your cartridge and decide which is a better match for that specific cartridge.

In other side please check the brochure here and try to find out the black color SAEC stabilizer you can see in the second picture:

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/saec/we-308.shtml


Use either Löfgren A/Baerwald or Löfgren B tonearm/cartridge alignment set up.

R.

@mijostyn : With all respect you understand  nothing of the main issue to my answers to him. Please read it again.

The issue is that he posted information and when I asked him for facts he just has no single fact to prove what he said .

I don't care if one or the other tonearm is better or if SME tonearm we can't buy it any more because these is not the issue.

Again issue is that I ask that he prove what he is posting and he did not. Got it?

R.

@mijostyn : here people say: " even what you don't eated makes you sick "

Good for you to support some one that has not any single fact that can prove his words that degraded the SME extremely well regarded " name ". :

"   SME deals with the reliability issue by having physically larger bearings. So their arms tend to have more friction..""

R.

Dear @chilli42 : If you do not pull yet the triger for the tonearm then you can add to your alternatives this one that’s really good :

https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/tonearm/high-end-tonearm-enterprise/


R.

@atmasphere  : "   you are simply attacking for the joy of it. "

"  My answers are very specific. "

Really?. Where is that " specific answer " not to all question but at least for the one I posted:

""  many arms? which tonearms and after how many number of years?  "

or:

"  " SME deals with the reliability issue by having physically larger bearings. So their arms tend to have more friction..""

SME ? where are the facts that can prove it.  "

You not even honor the words you posted.

R.

@atmasphere  : You can't have a specific true answer because your statements are just blanket statements with no true foundation.

""  If memory serves the bearings in the SME 5 are the hardest commercially available. The bearings in the Triplanar are not commercially available...."

That I know SME never stated about. Where is your link on that precsie tonearm SME characteristic?


"  Specifically as it was explained to me by Herb Papier, the problem he ran into was that over a period of years he noticed that many arms needed to be readjusted. He found that the reason was that the bearings would fail over time in the field- due to use and minor abuse the bearing points would blunt. "

many arms? which tonearms and after how many number of years?



"  SME deals with the reliability issue by having physically larger bearings. So their arms tend to have more friction..""

SME ? where are the facts that can prove it.


" tend to have more friction. ", again where are the facts that can prove it and how much more friction. Btw, which its original friction levels? which SME model are you refering?

Seems to me that you are spreading false information against a very well regarded tonearm manufacturer as is SME  and you are an audio item manufacturer ! !

R.

@atmasphere  :Again because you did not answer in precise way not even mentioned about:

""  wich its radial play, surface finish, material, tolerance ( ABEC 5,7 or 9 ), starting torque which affects the swinging of the tonearm up and down and following eccentricity of the record, noise level and vibration in bearings which adds distortion, how precisely the ball bearings are fitted into the housing and shaft of the tonearm, vertical/horizontal sensivity etc, etc.."""

""""  I know that the V makes the XV-1s shows at its best. How the Triplanar and why surpass that excellence grade quality performance mounted in the 20/2? """"


After answer those please tell us the Triplanar friction levels ( or at least its sensitivity in the vertical/horisontal planes. ) that you don't say it but try to tell is lower than the V.

If you don't have a specific answer is useless to post nothing about.

R.

Dear @oldears : I’m not even touch the tonearm adjustable facilities. So, where are you?, because is not the issue.

Read again my post and wait for his " expert " answer to what I asked.

Btw, for any expert recording engeneering this fact just can’t gives him the cartridge/tonearm in deep experiences several true expert audiophiles have not only in this site ( as @dover ) but all over the internet forums.

I’m not a true expert audiophile but I have " thousands " of first hand experiences with over 150+ top MC/MM/MI in my room/system and many more in other room/systems and first hand experiences ( because I owned and own ) with over 40+ top tier vintage and today tonearms and even rigth now I have mounted in my room/system 3 absolutely first rate unique tonearms designed/builded by a friend and me.

So what are you talking about? impressed by " Ralph " in that specific subject? of course due to your very low cartridge/tonearm knowledge levels. You said: " I tend to agree with Ralph ": in something that you not even understand it? how is that?.

 But wait for his answer because I’m always willing to learn coming from any one and every where, even from you.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@atmasphere  : "  are several grades harder than those used in the SME arms. "

several grades? : how many grades and where are stated ?

Harder?, so what:  wich its radial play, surface finish, material, tolerance ( ABEC 5,7 or 9 ), starting torque which affects the swinging of the tonearm up and down and following eccentricity of the record, noise level and vibration in bearings which adds distortion, how precisely the ball bearings are fitted into the housing and shaft of the tonearm,  vertical/horizontal sensivity etc, etc..

I used the XV-1s in the SME V and like @dover  posted:

"  SME V is a natural partner and is excellent with the Dynavector. "

I know that the V makes the XV-1s shows at its best. How the Triplanar and why surpass that excellence grade quality performance mounted in the 20/2?

R.

Dear @chilli42 : Wit your XV-1s the Kuzma 4-point, Triplanar or the SME V are good match and very good tonearms.

Btw, Sutherland is a really good electronics designer and very good with phono stages.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.