Looking for my Final Pair!!


Been through the high end maelstrom for over 30 years and although I have enjoyed the ride, I desperately want to find speakers that exude dynamics, tone and presence.  I want to be transported to the Village Vanguard where The John Coltrane Quartet are performing any night I desire.  I want to feel the timbre of his sax 🎷. When I close my eyes I want to be enveloped by the atmosphere of the space and awash with the impact and emotion being expressed by the musicians.  I don’t want to hear what the engineers hear after they mix a recording...I want to be in the studio when the tracks are being laid down!  So far, Tannoy Heritage Arden have come to my attention, Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, JBL S4700’s or perhaps Spatial Audio X3’s?  Help
128x128dave_b

Showing 39 responses by rauliruegas

Dear @mozartfan :  ""  ONly a FR can voice orchestra/complex jazz with success in the mids/highs.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not only Full Orchestra/complex jazz,
But also no other speaker in the universe can voice female jazz vocals like a New High Tech Full Range, whether it be magnet or field coil..."""

"""  The above speaker sounds superior than the actual recording in the studio itself.
Better than live, Hows that for full range magic...."""

Suddenly your statements that you spreaded shouting at just change in a few days ! !

No more FR ? crossover again?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
@gordon  : Fantastic contribution to all the subjects developed in the thread that enhance and helps all Agoners and especially the OP.

Thank's for that and keep walking.

R.
Dear @dave_b : In audio world nothing is perfect, always exist different kind of trade-offs.

A room/system quality sound reproduction levels has a direct relationship to the choosed trade-offs by each one of us.
So as better choosed trade-offs as better the room/system quality sound reproduction levels.

The best way to be " near " to that perfection is to mantain the room/systems developed distortions ( every kind of distortions/noises etc. ) at minimum. That’s all and yes that’s exactly what I learned to do and more important how to detect those distortions and when is possible how to fix it.

Rigth now am I chasing distortions?, not really. What I’m doing is listening to reproduced MUSIC through my room/system.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @roxy54  : I can see in this thread that some of you ( including that stupid. ) posted everything against my posts even laugjhin of me and yes is very easy to make critics to any one posts when those critics has not to be proved by facts that were used as the critics foundation.

I can't see/read here to any of you posted any single contribution that can helps to improve the quality sound reproduction of the OP or in any of your systems.

Applaud is not a contribution and makes more damage than helps in any way.

Forums are places ( for me. ) where we can learn ( that's why I post, trying always to learn or help. ) or confirm what we already knew, it is a " win to win " excersice: no one is defeated but here some want to beat the other person ( in this case me. ) and try to do it with no first hand experience facts to do it.

I don't post to beats any one, this kind attitudes is almost the rule in the audio forums and is way wrong.

So instead to follow making useless/futile critics ( including Dave. ) my advise to all of you is to make true contributions that in any way can enhance the different issues developed through any thread.

Btw, I learned, by " test and error " , several years ago the critical and main characteristic that impedes to any system to have top quality sound reproduction and that has a name: IMD levels.

My ADS goes down to below 18hz and is designed to run with a stereo amp or to run in bi-amp way ( with out using external crossover. ) as many other speaker manfacturers designs.
Bi-amp works really good and enhance the quality level sound reproduction. Latter on ADS made it a dedicated external crossover for my speakers and obviously I bougth it and I achieved higher quality sound reproduction levels.
All those gaves me some kind of first hand experiences about and then I asked my self: why not add subwoofers? that in those times was a crazy idea due that my ADS goes really low but even that I tryed and for may self I step by step learned about that IMD.
For my self and not through links information or advise of other gentlemans else where.

That's why I posted in Agon the " old " subwoofer thread with foundation mainly as the subs main target is not to achieve better and lower bass range but to put at minimum the IMD developed by the passive woofers in speakers and as a side advantage better and lower bass.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @dave_b : "" Try psychotherapy... ", you can go on insulting me in all the ways you intent/intented.

What you need is to learn and understand the IMD meaning that obviously that as you several other persons in this thread just can’t understand it or have a severe misunderstood for a very low knowledge levels in that speacific IMD regards.

Here " something " that could help to fix your misunderstood.

You say I need psycotherapy because you are sticked as one stupid here with the very old " fashion " ( same as REL people. ) to use a subs as only a low bass speaker reinforcement even with true full range speaker designs.

That old and wrong way to use subs to listen MUSIC in stereo home systems changed several years ago in favor to lower the IMD levels to achieve true improvements in the room/system quality sound reproduction.

Next some high-lihgts and links to understand about:

this comes from white papers by Putzeys.


""" Read any discussion about loudspeakers and you get the impression that distortion as a topic is eagerly avoided. If it is mentioned, it is done sotto voce, implicitly. For instance: “you can’t get good bass out of a small long-stroke driver. There’s no substitute for cone area when you want to move air”. Doesn’t sound like it is about distortion at all, does it? Let’s unpick the statement a bit: there is no substitute for cone area. Of course there is: displacement. If you want to move 100 cc of air, you could move a 500 cm 2 cone by 2 mm or you can move a 200 cm2 cone by 5 mm. At the wavelengths we’re talking about, there’s no difference between the two. So if the bigger driver sounds better, it must be because it’s managing that 2 mm movement much more precisely than the smaller driver is managing its 5mm. And that is a statement about distortion. If we can crack the question why a short-stroke driver is more accurate over short strokes than a long-stroke one over long strokes, it should enable us to build a long-stroke driver that’s just as accurate as a long stroke one for the same acoustical output. More accurate in fact, because once you understand the problem, there’s no reason why you couldn’t reduce distortion even further.

A HD measurement done on a complete driver tends to show a complicated jumble of frequency and amplitude dependent distortion products. An IMD measurement shows another jumble.

When we talk about distortion, there’s often a distinction made between Harmonic Distortion (HD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IMD). These aren’t two different types of distortion per se, but different ways in which the same distortion mechanism can manifest itself more or less saliently. Take for instance a woofer whose BL curve droops progressively with excursion. Tested with a single 30 Hz sine wave, this will only manifest itself as a form of soft limiting. This sounds like a change in tonal quality, but little more. The effect of the suspension progressively stiffening (Kms increases) with excursion would sound more or less the same in a single sine wave test. A HD measurement is not helpful in telling you which of the two effects is happening. By contrast, imagine what happens if you add a 1kHz tone to the bass tone. The added excursion caused by the 1kHz component itself is negligible. But now the two distortion mechanisms show very different signatures. As BL rises and falls throughout the 30 Hz cycle, so does the sensitivity of the motor. The 1 kHz tone gets amplitude modulated. You can hear the 1 kHz tone wobble. BL droop manifests itself not only as harmonic distortion, but also as intermodulation. The variable stiffness of the suspension however has no such effect. The 1 kHz tone will not be modulated by suspension stiffness. Why should it? 1 kHz is well above the resonance frequency, so there the mass of the cone completely dominates how the 1kHz component makes the cone move. The difference between the two distortion mechanisms is plainly audible on any genre of music that has both bass and midrange content. And as a distortion mechanism, the droop of the BL curve is much more audible than the progressive stiffening of the suspension. This is rather important. One often encounters drivers where two different distortion mechanisms are precisely orchestrated to make their harmonic distortions cancel. Such drivers look great on paper but this sleight of hand actually worsens IMD.

The distortion takes the form of the signal being multiplied with a filtered version of itself, so it is predominantly second order in nature. Now, there is a common misconception that second order distortion is innocuous. This may be largely true of harmonic distortion where a second harmonic is easily masked by the fundamental, but in the case of intermodulation distortion it is patently false. Second order IMD generates difference frequencies which are below the signal frequency and don’t get masked at all. They audibly clog up the bass region in a manner which becomes extremely obvious once you remove the distortion. Also, amplitude modulation of mid frequency signals by the bass is very audible as burbling. """


http://www.klippel.de/know-how/measurements/nonlinear-distortion/intermodulation-distortion.html

In next link read critical issues and you will see IMD:

http://www.klippel.de/test-objects/low-frequency-drive-units.html

http://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Files/Know_How/Application_Notes/AN_08_3D_Intermodulation_Di...

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audibility-of-distortion-at-bass/intermodulation-dist...

In next link you can read:

"" Another well known type of distortion is Intermodulation Distortion (IM) where a higher frequency is amplitude modulated by a lower frequency, causing new frequencies above and below the highest frequency at a frequency“distance” equal to the lowest frequency (mirrored side-bands). ""
https://www.rmsacoustics.nl/papers/whitepaperdistortion.pdf

Joe D’Appolito:

"" We can tolerate relatively high levels of harmonic distortion in program material because, as their name implies, the spurious components added to the program are harmonically related to the original program. Intermodulation distortion (IMD) produces output frequencies that are not harmonically related to the input. These frequencies are much more audible and annoying than harmonic distortion. ""

In 1967 a gentleman who cares about IMD made it his patent:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3327043


Now, the CW woofer handled a wide frequency band where exist very high IMD levels and that only can be lower if part of the bass frequencies goes out of that woofer and for this we need subs and a high-pass filter that liberates the CW woofer of that bass frequency short band.

I respect that you prefer the CW or any other speaker in full range status. So that means that you are not even aware of that IMD developed by those woofers in all the speakers you own or owned.

Stay where you are and follow sticked to that old and wrong " fashion ". It’s your privilege and no one can disagree with.

R.
atmasphere : my mistake but I’m not need your post as a reference because makes no sense at all:

" The use of a sub is good, but in order to really take advantage of that, you’d have to make sure no bass is getting into the Cornwalls. "

No bass? really? Then let us know what is your first hand experience to do that in the CW or other similar passive speaker.

I stated in the thread the normal low/high pass crossover frequency to make lower the CW IMD .

The other part in reference to use an electronic crossover:

" muddy the sound, eliminating any perceived advantage ...."

dave is doing your " muddy the sound " through the REL crossover. At least I posted this way of connection after he posted the REL manual operation and he don't tell me he is doing in other way . 

You make critics and as always with out facts. Please bring/show here your first hand experiences with measures that proves your " muddy sound eliminating ANY perceived advantage ".

it’s stupid to think that all subs in home places are used stand alone as low bass reinforcement only.

So what are you talking about? 

You can take all the examples I posted of manufacturers in the thread that use subs with its main speakers and they made the design for the subs handled only a part of the bass range not all bass through the subs as you posted:
"" NO BASS is getting..... "

R.


Dear @dave_b : Believe me that I really appreciated you pasted here the REL manual, thank’s for that.

Now, you said that prefer that the main speakers been play full range and according to that and the REL info then you are crossing at around ( more or les ) 34hz. Only you know the precise frequency you choosed through the REL crossover.

Again I’m not be argumentative against what you like it. What I’m trying to do is why you like the more with your speakers playing full range when the 99.99% of the audiophiles with a pair of self powered subs ( including the ones that owns REL. ) always likes the more the room/system quality levels when the main speakers does not plays full range but use a high-pass filter to makes the IMD goes way lower from the spaker woofers.

Obviously that I can be totally wrong but this is mytake/explanation about:


first the S2 units you use ( I’m thinking that you own two S2s. ) are not true subwoofers due that its low bass spec says: -6db at 24hz.

So using the CW the frequency range that sees/plays the subs is really a short one. Nothing wrong with that, it’s your choice.

Now, what happens if the crossover instead to be at say 40hz goes up to 100hz?

I’m sure that I don’t like it because the signal in the subs is powered by the NEXTGEN 2 DIGITAL amplifiers.

The other issue in both ways: full range or crossed higher is that the overall signal that " sees " the speaker amplifiers is generated by the REL that could be a first rate/excellent one or could be not so good, depends on the REL internal quality design.

For me certainly that an electronics company as the Canadian Bryston makes products with excellent design ( because are specialist on that kind of electronics by a lot of years. ) and excecution design as the electronic crossover that I link in one of my posts in the thread.

Any way my advise still is the same: we must to make that the developed IMD levels in the woofer of our speakers goes a lot lower and through REL we can’t do it, we can’t have success.

I respect your way of thinking and your very fast mind status changes. I said that because I told you the high limitation of the CW at its reproduction of high frequencies and you told me that you don’t care or that I was wrong because music instruments does not goes beyond 20khz and now you have supertweeters to solve that problem.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : I disturb you again because rigth now I can't understand why tou posted that you  always tested all your speakers with subs running in full range and running through a high-pass filter and that you prefer speakers in full range way. Posted twice.

atmasphere posted:  ""  The use of a sub is good, but in order to really take advantage of that, you'd have to make sure no bass is getting into the Cornwalls. That's probably best done with an electronic crossover  >"""

and with other words and examples I posted more than 4 times the same.

Again after so many posts by me you confirm that through your tests on those both options you like full range speakers mode.

My last post about said:


"  That means that the independent high-pass filter and low-pass filter comes in the S2 and it's the way you tested? "


Your answer was direct when you answered me:


"  Correct...."



I contacted directly to REL and ask in specific about the S2 high-pass filter and here the answer:


"" 

Rob Hunt (REL Acoustics)

Apr 9, 2021, 8:42 AM PDT

Hi there again
We feed a REL full range signal but there are no hi pass filters..."""


and you have not an external Xover with high-pass filter.

So you can't test it ever with any of your speakers what atmasphere and I asked/posted and even that you said: you did it and do it with the CW?

A high-pass filter is need it to fix the main speaker frequency that normally it's not exatly the same frequency than the subs Wover and many other issues that tells us why it need for  main speakers: a dedicated high-pass Xover.

All those information could means that what you posted is totally false or you have a" something " to do it in the S2.

Is it in true false what you posted? or what is that " something " that works as high-pass filter?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Dea @dave_b  :Ok, even that's not tghe best the way to do it I can't argue about because that's what you like it. Good.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : It is weird that over my posts in your thread you never mentioned that when I posted again and again about.

In your vitual systemI can't see any  external electronic Xover that normally is the best way to integrate subs to the main speakers because that Xover gaves us several advantage. One is that the low-pass filter is totally independent of the high-pass filter, each filter comes with individual  crossover grequency range and even those filters can comes with different Xover filter shapes: first order, second order, third order, etc and obviously comes with individual to each filter an attenuator/volume.

Now and due that you said you already tested what I said in those latest statements  andyou  prefer full range main speakers.

That means that the independent high-pass filter and low-pass filter comes in the S2 and it's the way you tested?

Thank's. and sorry to disturb/ask again.

R.
Dear @dave_b : This I posted in this thread 03-24. Where you can see and read about that external crossover to set up the crossover frequencies through a Xover:

""" In that thread I gave my advise to the OP gentleman as an alternative to those Wilson Alexx V:

https://www.kerracoustic.com/k300

with this Xover:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/

these could be the subs:

https://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mini-series/minisub/?doing_wp_cron=1615566000.556648...


One way or the other almost all of you are " against " my posts about but please let me know which Cornwall IV owner has its set up using subwoofers not as bass range reinforcement but crossing at 80hz-90hz where the main speakers are handled from there and up? """

In my latest post you can read again about low/hi pass filters:


" easy to do for you because you already has subwoofers that you can use to play the frequencies from around 80hz-100hz ( depending the choosed crossover frequency in the high/low pass filters. ). "

You posted:

"" .I have done that experiment with all of the speakers I’ve owned in my current home. I have always preferred full range on mains and sub adjusted accordingly by ear. """

Please let me explain to me what I read in your post and please confirm if what I understand is correct or wrong:

so, that means that using a high-pass filter ( external or in any way. ) you made it that your main speakers ( any of the ones or all you owned. ) through its woofers have a crossover frequency at around 80hz-90hz meaning that those main speakers plays frequencies from 80hz-90hz and up and that through a low-pass filter the subs plays from 80hz-90hz all the way down to the very low bass frequency ( lower than 20hz. ).
So that the woofer of the main speakers never sees/seen/plays low bass frequencies, rigth?

and after your tests you prefer play in full range mode the main speakers using subs as bass reinforcement only, rigth?


Both solutions are different and give different quality of soun room/system reproduction.

Have I a misunderstood on your last post?

Thank’s.

R.




what did you can't understand?

What I'm posting is exactly what Vandersteen said.

The issue is to liberate/let it free the woofer of CW the frequencies in the low bass range.

That means that instead that the CW woofer plays/handled frequencies from around 35hz and up it will be free of the low bass frequencies and it will plays/handled frequencies from around 80hz-100hz and up in this way the IMD will goes lower in benefit of quality level of what you are listening today.
That's it, easy to do for you  because you already has subwoofers that you can use to  play the frequencies from around 80hz-100hz ( depending the choosed crossover frequency in the high/low pass filters. ) and below it.

If you can't understand it please let me know what you can't understand because it's not rocket science.

@rbrannen just posted  about the Legacy Focus XD, please re-read his post.

This is the Legacy:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/legacy-focus-xd-active-4-way-speakers-review-tremendous-towers.3030...

that you can use full active with its internal amp or just active with low bass range. Please take a look the crossover frequency of the woofers and you can read that crossover frequency is 120hz ( active as a subwoofer. ).

I hope now you can understand the whole issue to improve the CW sound reproduction adding those subs in the rigth way.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : What I wanted to say is that you own subwoofesr so you can test the CW with a crossover at almost the same frequency than the subs: around 80hz-100hz ( both: sub and CW ) and through this test you can now what I'm talking about. With out doubt you will be very nice surprised and with rewards over the items you are buying as amplifier or supertweeters and if you don't liked it you always can come back to the original status, you can lost nothing and can learn about.

After your test you can decide if you still need the other audio items.

R.
@dave_b  : Good that you like Coltrane there, this is not the issue. I already told you that I don't care about you like because no one can argue against it. Again that's not the issue.

Now, you have subs and that fact makes so easy to test about and then you can have an idea of what not only me but the ones that knows are talking about. I gave you a list of manufacturers on the issue ask them but more important than that: test it , you almost have all what you need for. Is up to you.

No one can talk on that issue if have not first hand experiences. You are not stupid gentleman as other persons that posted in your thread.

Again, just test it. You can't lost nothing and can have excellent rewards to share to audio community.

R.
@dave_b  : "  I knew that! ". So you are wrong exactly as him because the CW woofer handled frequency from around 35hz to 800hz frequenciesand develops high IMD no matters what that can be fixed using a subwoofers where both CW and subs crossover 80-100hz. You already know the instruments including human voice that are inside that frequency range and its reponse are modulated but the woofer low frequency.

These comes from Vandersteen:

"""  Given these stipulations, a pair of powered
subwoofers can provide the following benefits:
Page 14 Audio Perfectionist Journal Issue #2 Copyright © 2000 R. L. Hardesty
1. Better performance from your speakers.
Full range loudspeakers utilize the same
driver to reproduce both the bass range of frequencies
and at least part of the midrange. For
optimum reproduction of midrange frequencies
little cone movement is required, and a relatively
small driver is necessary to provide quick
response and good dispersion.
Low frequencies require lots of air movement,
demanding greater cone area and more cone
movement. In engineering terms, the back-andforth
movement of the cone is called excursion.
Cone excursion quadruples with each halving of
frequency.
Good midrange reproduction requires the
use of moderately-sized drivers and good bass
reproduction requires lots of cone area, so most
full range speakers compromise the quality of
both bass and midrange by utilizing woofers that
are too small to provide good bass yet too large to
deliver the best midrange quality.
The cone of the 8-inch or 10-inch woofer
typically found in a full range loudspeaker will be
required to make peak-to-peak excursions of perhaps
an inch to deliver audible levels of output at
40Hz and it will have to do this while producing
300Hz (or higher) midrange signals at the same
time. A 6.5-inch woofer will make a better
midrange driver but it will have to work even
harder to deliver low frequencies and IM distortion
in the midrange will rise.
Intermodulation distortion occurs when
one frequency modulates (alters by its frequency)
another. Peak-to-peak cone excursions of an inch
or more, which may be required to reproduce a
40Hz signal, will have a substantial effect on a
signal at 300Hz. The 300Hz signal will increase
slightly in frequency when the cone is moving
towards the listener to reproduce the 40Hz portion
of the signal, and decrease in frequency when the
cone is moving away from the listener. This is
only one mechanism of IM distortion, which is
sometimes called Doppler distortion. There are
other forms of IM distortion.
All dynamic drivers exhibit some nonlinearity
in outward versus inward cone movement.
High cone excursion exacerbates nonlinear driver
response and causes harmonic distortion.
Harmonic distortion occurs when a harmonic
(multiple) or side-band of the desired signal is
produced due to nonlinear behavior of the electrical,
magnetic or mechanical mechanism of the
driver. If you want to reproduce 40Hz and you get
some output at 160Hz as well, that�s harmonic
distortion.
The results of high excursion of the
woofer cone are intermodulation distortion of the
midrange signal and increased harmonic distortion
of the bass signal. And there�s more.
The small woofers required to maintain
reasonable midrange performance in a full range
speaker don�t do a very good job of reproducing
the lowest bass frequencies but they do put a lot
of energy into the speaker cabinet structure and
this is very detrimental to sound quality.
As the woofer cone makes these large
mechanical movements to pressurize and rarefy
air, an equal and opposite force is applied to the
woofer basket, or frame, which is attached to the
speaker structure. This force excites resonances in
the cabinet structure and tries to move the whole
speaker back and forth. Cabinet resonances color
the sound in the midrange. Cabinet movement
distorts high frequencies.
A backward and forward motion of just a
few thousandths of an inch may represent a major
percentage of the total excursion of the tweeter
diaphragm as it attempts to reproduce subtle high
frequency details. The result of structural movement
is IM distortion of the midrange and high
frequencies.
If you are skeptical about the sonic consequences
of woofer energy moving the speaker
cabinet, think about speaker spikes. A reduction in
cabinet motion is the main reason that spikes
beneath the speaker improve sound. Remove the
spikes and see (no, hear) what happens.
As you can see, a full range loudspeaker is
a bundle of compromise. It is asked to perform
many conflicting tasks.  .............."""

Why insist that the CW has not a IMD problem?, well is up to you.

R.
Dear @dave_b  This is a high-ligth of measured works made by Bruel&Kjeuer about sound/distortions. Unfortunatelly the ggraphics can't be seen here but the expert explanation speaks by it self:


"" Practical example s of Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) measurements Intermodulation distortion can also be used effectively to evaluate crossover designs. If a transducer is excited with a fixed low frequency test tone, for example near resonance to cause large diaphragm excursions, and another test tone that sweeps up in frequency, the resulting distortion will indicate both amplitude modulation distortion and Doppler frequency modulation distortion.
The Doppler phenomena in loudspeakers occurs when a high frequency source is shifted by a low frequency. Look at the IM distortion for the fullrange loudspeaker with its single driver trying to reproduce the entire frequency Fig. 21a Harmonic Distortion components are attenuated by filter networks while 3rd range (Fig. 22). There is a lot of 2nd order difference frequency components remain the same level as the excitation frequencies, order IM distortion. This is quite audi- fi andf2 (assuming 100% distortion) 12 ble in the midfrequency range. If a chamber music duet with a cello and a flute is played through a single driver, the driver might cause the high frequencies of the flute signal to be modulated by the low frequencies of the cello signal. ""

That CW woofer is just terrible even that you said " low distortions ".


R.





Dear @dave_b  : "   full bodied dynamic sound with low distortion.."

Low distortions? unfortunatelly way wrong your statement and that's why I post about because is wrong.

Btw and only for your learning ladder:


http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm


R.
Dear @mijostyn @cliff12 : Both of you are rigth and Mijos I don’t know if millercarbon is reffering in his post to you, me or some one else but if he reffered to you then he is wrong for say the least.

"" The low frequency -3dB point of the first order crossover is set at 20Khz ""

that’s came from Townshend site and been a first order crossover is the main culprit of what you posted about that 6khz frequiency response but as critical of that fact is that that supertweeter can’t be at the rigth distance from the speaker tweeter.
Something to take in count too is that the ribbon driver design in the ST has a way different frequency dispersion than horns.

But it’s useless for both of you posting in this thread when it’s surrounded by some pseudo MUSIC lovers and pseudo audiophiles that unfortunatelly have very low knowledge levels. At least it’s what they showed and follow showing.

Go figure that at the other frequency extreme ( bass range ) is a Rel sub working ( in the wrong way. ) from around 30hz so the 60hz harmonics is listening at the same time that 60hz main speaker frequencies ! ! !

Unfortumnatelly too that some are swiming in the stupidity sea and for what I can see never will go out of that sea.


R.
Dear @dave_b : Cleeds is rigth and even CDP goes beyond due to oversampling rates.Only as an example Spectral electronics goes to frecuencies as high as Mhz, yes Mhz: so what are you talking about? an spectral is not the only equipment with wide frecuency ranges.

Wilson goes at around 22khz ( +,-3db. ) but does Focal drivers handled usable frequencies over 25khz.

"" The only speaker I heard that did the top end extension correctly was my Maggie 3.6’s ""

"" wned speakers that went out to 45khz and beyond...if anything, the frequency balance was tipped up! ""

Looks as you , one way or the other, has a " problem " with high frequency sounds beyond 2okhz but live MUSIC harmonics goes beyond that figure. 

I know that you are entitled with the limited frequency and high IMD distortion levels in those IV and maybe is that fact the one that impedes you can look the whole forest, you are seen only one pine on that forest.

Enouigh, because the worst " deaf man " is the one that does not wants to hear as the worst blind man is the one that does not wants to see.

At the end in reality I don’t care what you like to listen. I’m only sharing my opinion trying to help " some one " with a non biased attitude and wide open mind.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : ""  They say very little about how something sounds to a human! ""

Agree with your statement because that " how " is absolutely elusive and unique to each human been and I could think unmeasurable.

""  they fall off before 20khz.  Yeah, not missing anything ""

well, I think only organ, harp and brushes are at 20khz. But remember that one thing is the main intrument note and other its developed harmonics that's where MUSIC really belongs.

Harmonics of a 10khz note goes to 20khz and up. Of course you are missing more that that " anything " a lot more.

Things are that our brain is adaptative to any sound we listen and does not measures the frequency response of what we are hearing.

I remember that I enjoy a lot my Tandberg tunner in those old times where its frequency response by radio characteristic transmission waslimited : 30hz to 15khz and that's all. Even that I enjoyed a lot listening MUSIC.

@james633  : """  The whole talk of upper frequencies is comical. I am 40 and can’t hear anything above 15khz.  """

certainly it's not comical and not only for what I posted in this thread but something that I can see you did not read yet: human been hear through his ears, sking, hair and bones. So we in reality listen way beyond not 15khz but over 25khz. There are studies that proved that we can listen up to 40khz. and at the other extreme any one of us can listen frequencies as low of 12hz. We listen through all our body, our brain is an incredible and marvelous " machine " .

R.




Dear @james633  : """  I have found I just like good old paper drivers and silk tweeters, in a damped box just fine. Often more than high tech items..""

I'm in agreement with you, as a fact my new " vintage " speakers in my today system came with: silk dome tweeters, silk dome mid ranges and pulp/paper woofers even my subwoofers were choiced because were the latest Velodyne models that came with pulp/paper woofers.

But in those silk/paper drivers exist no frequency limitations as in the horns and the horn limitation about is heavy one and goes against the MUSIC reproduction at home.

It does not makes sense to me that with all room/system different kind of limitations we add a heavy transducer frequency response limitations when the room/system chain per sé adds/lost MUSIC signal that originally came in the recording. As I said: makes no sense to me and this is not subjective but real, the IV specs talks by its self.


R.
Dear @dave_b  : Of course MUSIC is objective with the astonishing power to moves the human been deep emotions/feelings in subjective way because MUSIC develops different kind of subjective emotions with different gentlemans.

MUSIC use the stave, notes have can have different scale tones and evenpitch, harmonics are " metric " series, has different of SPLs, it must be accurated and can be measured, etc, etc all those is objective what is subjective/objective is the composer score.

Nothing wrong that you follow enjoying your new toy.

R.
Dear @dave_b : " Actually, what I’m hearing could be equated with a lack of distortion induced artifacts...""

There is no perfect speakers, all of them have trade-offs.

Horns developed low distortion levels, so you are rigth, and its immediacy of the reproduced sound could be addictive.

Its main negative trade-off is that horn speakers has is a very limited frequency response that with digital or analog media your Cornwall just can’t reproduce what is in the recording and this is a fact and does not matters if those speakers are mated with SS or tube ( worst. ) electronics.

The Cornwall frequency response ( horns. ) are +,- 4db at only 20khz.

You are a MUSIC lover and understand very well that heavy limitation along all the other issues of its woofer. What comes in the recordings has a wider usable/listenable wider frequency range, as a fact has no significant limitations. Maybe you as the other gentlemans just does not want to listen what is in the recording.

I can see in this thread several gentlemans that touted this Cronwall certainly all of them even that could thing they are MUSIC lovers in reality are not because if we attend to a Live MUSIC event we listen way over those 16khz ( the Cornwall is not flat at 20khz. ) of the IV, same at the lower range. Remember that human been " hears " not only through the ears but even all over our skin/bones/hair.

I’m not against that speaker I’m in favor of MUSIC and that speaker, no matters what, goes against MUSIC reproduction. Yes, I know that all of you like it but that is subjective and MUSIC is objective, accurated and its harmonics goes way beyond 16khz-20kz. MUSIC belongs to harmonics and instrument transients.
Dave you understand it for sure.

Acapella uses horns but for very good reasons not at frequency extremes ranges and are marvelous performers with a tag/label price of over 250K.

Today expensive Avantgarde horn speakers performs very good and the limited frequency response in the up frequency range is usable at 20khz, comes with better response that the IV obviously is way more expensive.

A true MUSIC lover in the long time can’t accept those limitations not either his ears/brain.

I was exposed several times to top horn speakers and when I did it I was " impressed " at the first 5 minutes but not after 2 hours of listen it. Yes, that’s me not any one of you.

So I know for sure that those speakers will not be your last pair !.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : "  it would only be the room or amplification and source!   "

Mainly the source and room. The whole recording proccess is critical followed by the source medium: digital or analog.

Room/speaker must be mated and if not then colorations/distortions will be mainly what we will be listening at.

I let amplification at last due that are only two main characteristics that needs to be well mated with the speakers: impedance curve and sensitivity of the speakers and that's all.

The function of any amplifier is to let pass the MUSIC signal with out added " anomalies " to the MUSIC signal and with out lost of any part of that MUSIC signal.
If the amp changes those then those " anamalies " only says the quality level of that amplifier: as more color the worst the amp is.
Electronics must be accurated not analytical but working and measuring with accuracy.

From those point of view SS are the electronics that meets those targets. Again I'm not talking of what we like but what is rigth or wrong.

Btw, @audiopacer:

"""   I have my suspicions even he doesn't know what he's saying """

It's easy to make critics with out explain the foundations of those critics.

Please tell me why I do not know what I'm saying and remember that we are talking of home reproduction MUSIC recordings and not Live MUSIC that however must be our reference.

R.


roxy54 : all those numbers posted came from measurements. What are you talking about.

Problem belongs to your understanding or misunderstanding levels, that's all.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : ""  You cannot pick out the exact placement of any instrument. In fact, soundstaging is mostly non existent as well.  """

And now you are looking for " that extra dimensionality and sparkle. ""

In a home system I understand that the dimensionality is part intrinsecal to each one room/system and the quality levels of the system ( specially electronics/speakers. ) frequency extremes and here comes or not that sparkle you are talking about. Are the harmonics developed in the play proccess what defines it.

Again, bass range is with out doubt the key down there.

R.


@roxy54  : ""   that is between the two of us. "" absolutely not if both of you are indirectly reffering to me. This is a public forum not a private one.
Dear @roxy54  : ""  these ridiculous arguments... """

Really?, what is ridiculous is that you post that kind of statements when till today you don't posted any single argument or facts that can tell us why my arguments all over this thread are ridiculous and you did not because you have any due to your very low knowledge levels in those main subjects.

First you need to have first hand experiences, learn and then maybe you can come back and show your knowledge levl up date becaus til now you showed very low levels.

atmasphere is an active  part of that corrupted AHEE ( where we all belongs. ) that impedes you can grow up. He belongs to the deep " dark side " of that AHEE.

He always fail to hit me no matter what. There was no need to post what he posted to you in reference to me and even that he did ( with out reason. ) it and said I'm a troll: go figure ! . Frustration down there, pity.

R.




Do you know where used the paper on oil and paper/wax capacitors?, were used in the home radio capacitors in the 40's and 80 years latter appears in the boutique caps that are only snake oil/BS parts. 
Obviously that Wima, Kemet or Vishay does not use that kind of folly design that audiiophiles love it.

Btw,, it does not makes sense that an electronics manufacturer touted exotic parts/cost no object when the recording signal durinf playback must pass in that electronic items through " hundreds " of m. of wire inside those transformers where that beloved signal suffers a wide and big degradation and that's what many of you like it because are accustom too.

R.
Dear @roxy54 : Very far away from there.

But I have some first hand experiences in the electronic design and first hand experiences on active/passive electronics parts. These gives me some " idea " about.

Just as an example about tube electronics and not as a critic against the designer that I respect first than all. So take it just as an example, the manufacturer name does not matters at all. I took the Decaware Torii amps ( nothing personal against it. ).
Next statements came from its site:


""" Exotic parts - cost no object design. ""

"" with a bit sweeter top end. ""

" from DECWARE, you can see better with your eyes closed "



All 3 statements are full of subjectivity and can’t be proved with true facts:

Exotic parts?, more in a moment.

Sweeter top end? well live MUSIC at near field position where the recording microphones are " seated " is all you want but sweet.

The third statement is " crazy " for say the least.


One of those " exotic " parts are these Jupiter caps where the manufacturer says:

" upgrade caps the beeswax are a bit more organic sounding while the VCAP’ "


Organic, one audiophile adjective that exist only in the imagination and not in a live MUSIC. Again, subjective word.


https://www.decware.com/newsite/images/parts.jpg


" After trying everything from VCAPS to Mundorfs, a year long cap selection process ends with these Cryo-treated flat stacked copper foil capacitors featuring an organic bees wax dielectric and silver leads. """


One of my first hand experiences ( solid experiences. ) is with those kind of " exotic/boutique " caps that I used through my electronics and speaker crossover and like Decaware I owned, tested, compared in my system through several years from Duelund to Mundorf, V-caps, Sonicraft, Jantzen, Auricap, MIT, Clarity, Audyn, etc, etc. I used the top models in all those caps.
Example: I use from V-caps in electronics the Teflon CU ones that are truly expensive and performs very good.

Well, more than a year ago I posted a dedicated thread looking for the experts advises on caps:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitors

I appreciated all those gentleman experts advises but I could not found out exactly what I’m looking for then I tood that bull by its horns and by my self started a research in the internet and started to buy several non-boutique non-exotic caps that I tested/compared against the boutique ones and obviously against in between all those non boutique ones.

After several months searching and learning about I ended with exclusively non boutique caps/resistors that things are that are the overall industry true standards and that outperformed and outperforms easyly any of those boutique/exotic caps/resistors. The industry standards measures way better than the boutique very high price$$$ against the " peanuts " price of the " humble " industry standard.

I changed one critical V-cap teflon Cu at the input of my monoblok amplifiers and instead the V-cap now I’m using the humble Wima FKP1: outstanding and for me was a true discovery because I never imagined that those Wima could in any way outperforms any boutique caps.

Other changes were in my speakers crossover where I use Wima and Kemet caps along Vishay resistors. Nothing can beat it.

One main characteristic/advantage that my system achieved with those caps/resistors was and is that the room/system noise floor goes really down and believe me or not just disappeared. With the system volume all the way up if you switch on or off you can’t detect any noise floor difference in between those two conditions.


But what could happen if this tube manufacturer or Tidal speakers choosed Wima/Kemet or Vishay instead the boutique ones?. You have the answer.


Btw, this is the spec of one Torii amp:


FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 20Hz ~ 20kHz +/- 0.4dB  ( they don't disclose the IMD, slew rate or damping factor in any of its amplifier specs. )  ? ? ! ! 

the inverse RIAA eq. deviation in my phonolinepreamp performs from lower than 20hz to higher than 20khz with a deviation of only: 0.011 db and both channels measures the same.

Nothing here or in the cap thread is subjective but full of facts/measures/objectivity.

As I posted before: we must think out of the box out of the AHEE.

R.





Dear @ozzy62 : Obviously you are worthy of your own words. Btw, the majesty is only the MUSIC.

I can see you use tube electronics. As you I was a tube lover for over 10+ years till I learned and you need to learn. No doubt about.

R.
Dear friends: One of the best LP recording ever made and that competes with the best D2D M&K or Sheffield Labs recordings is the one that came from MoFi: The Power and the Majesty.

Side one first track The ThunderStortm is really something to " die for " if you have the rigth quality room/system. All the LP is astonishing but you need to be " there ", just outstanding and I truly mean it.

R.
Dear @roxy54 and friends : I own over 7K+ LPs and between them almost all digital old Telarc recordings and yes not all are very good but the majority are and between the good ones there are some excellent recordings as the 1812 and not only because those great cannon shots but along that the sound of the triangle or tambourine and in the score that part with the carrillon reproduction is just sublime where if you have the level of room/system you can be aware of each one of those " hundreds " bells sound tone differences. With recordings as Telarc good ones we are immersed in the MUSIC as never before.

Again, if we own the rigth room/system that Telarc 1812 is a true reference and test for any system.
Certainly and with out any doubt the Cronwall IV or " VI " can’t honor that truly high reference kind of MUSIC LP no matters what.

Years ago a gentleman that lived in Argentina send me an Agon message that he was in Mexico city for a week and that he wanted that both of us meets at my place to talk and know a new audiophile. Well that was very good time and very good listening sessions.
Suddenly he asked by the 1812 score and I took my Telarc LP and we started to listen it at real live event SPL and before the LP finished I look to his face and this gentlemans was crying ( believe or not. ), when the LP finished he told me: Raul you make it because I listened several times live and in audio systems this score and never feels as today.
I had a first hand experience with me, there is one score with Montserrat Caballe lovely voice ( for say the least ) that always makes me tears goes out from my eyes. Yes, this is the MUSIC power and it's all about.

Problem with almost all of you is that seems to me that never had that kind of first hand experiences and if you don’t have it then and with all respect: why don’t you have that kind of system quality when you are music lovers and experienced audiophiles?, yes that AHEE impedes you to have it, pity try to broken those AHEE chains. You can do if you start thinking " out of the box " to up-grade or up-date your room/system actions.

One gentleman posted that my statements were a folly and this is a prove of a very low knowledge levels in this specific distortions developed subject.

Roxy, when I was looking to buy my subs not only make with first hand experiences several tests with several manufacturer subwoofers and made a research through the internet looking for some critical information and I talked with those manufacturers.

Guess what? no single subwoofer manufacturer has disclosed the THD in their subs specs models and no one could told me that THD figure in its subs but Velodyne.

Velodyne was and is a great sub design and the spec about is really low: 0.5% ( THD ). Velodyne achieved by design sensing around 16K times each second the woofer excursions to avoid a higher than 0.5% on THD.

JL Audio measured ( I think in a Stereophile review. ) 5.6% and big Rel 6.3% ( I can’t remember whom made the measurements. ).

Now, those 0.5% or 5.6% on THD are achieved with a woofer designed specific for a really short bass frequency range along a dedicated amplifier to fulfill the subs needs and even that the THD is not really low but Velodyne.

Any of your passive speakers, including the Cornwall , that THD figure in those woofers handling a wider frequency range and with a non-dedicated amplifier the distortion is at over 15%-20% and that’s what almost all of you are accustom to and I was accustomed till I understand the whole critical issue down there and fixed.
Some one says here that those numbers on THD 15%-20% are not important !, go figure. THE IMD is way critical too and numbers are not lower than the ones for the THD.

Gentlemans you are losting the more important subject in the room/system reproduction: MUSIC and till you experience what I posted in this thread you just can’t understand the true outstanding quality level of your MUSIC at your place that puts you nearer to the recording and that makes that against live MUSIC the " big joke " that is the home system MUSIC reproduction can goes not so " big ".

@dave_b yes those vintage speakers as your Bozak were great. Do you remember The Voice of the Theater? There are several speakers from those times and after those times I think that one of the first speaker manufacturer that understanded the bass range issue was Infinity with its separate passive subs tower Reference model.

Now and in good shape please tell me why all of you are rigth and I could be wrong but not tell me with subjectivity words by with facts.

I don’t try to convince to any one of you, I only share a different facts and opinion.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.




Dear @roxy54  : "  the measurements of those speakers are far from being without fault, but that's ok, because you like the way they sound, right? And THAT is the whole point. " 

You are rigth because there is no perfect speaker but only can hope to approach that " perfect " but we have to remember the room intrinsecal realtionship with any speaker quality level performance.

Now my " new " and vintage ADS L2030 is not only a normal speaker and the whole point is not precisely: " you like the way it sound ", there are several issues behind it and we have to understand those issues. Look, if you make the things rigth that " like " with any audio item will comes per sé.

In the past Telarc asked to ADS to design and build a speakers to monitor its recording LPs and ADS made it a dedicated truly full range speakers that were mated with Threshold electronics. The success of this design was for Telarc and ADS so outstanding than ADS decided to design a new monitors and then born the L2030 and L1530 that were used for Telarc in all its recording LPs. These speakers are true monitors and what this word means. Here you can read and look about:

http://sportsbil.com/ads/l-2030-brochure.pdf


@ditusa  posted to Dave:  "  they sound "great" that, is your measurement. "

that statement seems rigth but in reality it's not. I'm not talking of what we like but what is rigth that's different approach.

Next statement came from Roxy:

"" measurements that YOU consider to be important are in practice NOT important. ""

who told you? that in the past almost no body cares about THD/IMD speaker distortions does not means today no body cares yet.

Both measures of that kind of speaker distortions are way important and manufacturers know it but the levels are so high that they decided not to disclose it.
At the end they take advantage of that low knowledge  audiophile level with that " like " as the " measurements ".

Next link try to explain something about and proves the necessity/urgency to put at minimum the IMD/THD levels specially at speakers bass range that's the name of the audiophile game:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/wilson-alexx-v/post?postid=2126914#2126914

http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htm

https://legacyaudio.com/images/uploads/reviews/Legacy_Aeris_Axpona_2014_Positive_Feedback_Robert_You...

https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/products/aida/

this Aida passive speaker design is a great one because its bass range crossover are at 55hz and 150hz. Please any one of you ask the designer why he choosed those crossover points. Just do it if you want to learn and grow up about.

In that thread I gave my advise to the OP gentleman as an alternative to those Wilson Alexx V:

https://www.kerracoustic.com/k300

with this Xover:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/

these could be the subs:

https://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mini-series/minisub/?doing_wp_cron=1615566000.556648...

We audiophiles are accustomed to like several wrong " things " and it's not our culprit but culprit coming from the teach ( bad and corrupted teaching. ) of the AHEE where all we belongs.

One way or the other almost all of you are " against " my posts about but please let me know which Cornwall IV owner has its set up using subwoofers not as bass range reinforcement but crossing at 80hz-90hz where the main speakers are handled from there and up?

If no one of you, even with other kind of speakers , have not that first hand experiences how could have a credible opinion. From where can comes that " certainty " that you think you have?

Try to be objective about the whole issue because at the end is only COMMON SENSE and nothing more.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @ozzy62 : Again, that you like it it does not means is rigth because facts is that’s wrong about those characteristics I posted.

I see that you own two subs and according what you posted you are using those subs only as bass reinforcement and not to lower those high Cornwall kind of distortions.

Facts are facts and you can’t change it and I’m talking of those facts/objective and you are talking of subjectivity and when any one post in a dialogue something subjective that dialogue is just finished because no one can refute a subjective opinion.
Obviously for you my opinion is: folly unfortunatelly you can’t prove it and I can prove the other way around. As a fact I already did it.

R.
Dear @roxy54  : ""  What the heck are you talking about? ""

The IMD and THD Cornwall developed distortions mainly belongs to that woofer that crossover 700hz what means that even intrudes at around 800hz.
Those IMD/THD distortions are incremented in any passive speaker where the woofer crossover is to high as in that speaker because at the same time that the woofer is handling extremely critical frequencies that goes between the 100hz-800hz where performs several instruments including voice that woofer has high excursion to reproduce frequencies as low as 30hz those high movements in the woofer always interfere with the other frequency es range adding high InterModulationDistortions and at the same the TotalHarmonicDistortions goes higher.

That several audiophiles like the Cornwall  says that they like those high distortion levels, that's all.

Please read again or read it for first time the link in my last  post to  Dave that explains very easy why in a passive speakers we need subs and the Cornwall really " cry " for subs, its woofer crossover is really high.

Even if you like it you can't change those facts and that's what I'm talking about.

R.
Dear @dave_b  : I'm not talking of soundstage and ceratinly when attend to a live event I'm not looking for the placement of instruments, soundstaging or audiophiles characteristics or adjectives people use.

60 days?, this is the first time that read something as that, enjoy it.

R.
Dear @dave_b : "" Listen to a live concert, any concert, with your eyes closed. You cannot pick out the exact placement of any instrument. ""

I respect your statement by disagree totally with. Not now by the pandemic but normally I attended each single week at least one time to live event to enjoy live MUSIC and normally I choosed a seat at around the center of the hall and not far away from the scenario from the orchestra and with open eyes or closed eyes I can tell you always where the instruments/source are.
If you can’t do it that’s only unique for you and nto for every one, at least not to me.

""" What you can hear, is the venue, the presence and the dynamics of the instruments, along with their respective tone colors as heard in that particular space. Hi Fi is mostly a joke! """

I almost agree with these statements, yes what we listen in a live MUSIC event is the presence/power/transients and fast harmonics developed and dynamics. obviously with those characteristics comes the natural " color " MUSIC has and yes HI FI is a with out doubt a joke a big joke against live MUSIC.

But that " joke " is not because Hi Fi per sé but because one main critical difference between live MUSIC and what we listen at our room/system and that difference is that in live MUSIC even between the MUSIC source and you exist almost only AIR and nothing else and in Hi Fi exist 100+ signal degradation steps before the sound be reproduced through the speakers.

But that reality does not means we don’t have to take some kind of care how to improve what we are listened trhough that room/syste:

"" We need to stop supporting the overpriced analytical instruments of disappointment. Music should be fun and enjoyable, emotional and deeply moving...it should not be analyzed. """

I agree that MUSIC shouild be and always is emotional and deeply moving and if we take care over our system we can help to that " emotional and deeply moving " MUSIC main characteristics at our place.

If we are true MUSIC lovers we can enjoy it in almost any room/system that’s the intrinsical " power " of MUSIC.

You want to change your speakers and any of the speaker advises by other gentlemans could works to enjoy MUSIC but exist some characteristics that could impedes that those speakers you buy will be your last pair, a good example are those touted here Cornwalls that no matters what has a weak characteristic in its design that promotes high IMD and THD distortion levels and that weak characteristic is that the woofer crossover 700hz.
Even if you like it when you have testing in your home your 802D3 are better if you do what was my advise in what I posted.

All is up to you and your understanding in that critical issue. Live MUSIC almost has not distortions and between other things what makes the Hi Fi a true joke are all those developed distortions added from the recording process and followed by the whole play process in our room/system.

I think that as any thing exist different enjoyment levels and in my case I want it the top one.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

The issue is not how the Cornwall performs ( I like the immediacy of horns sound reproduction but as any speaker drivvers not perfect. Latest horn speakers I listened were the Avantgarde Duo and Acapella and in the past the Klipshorn.  ) or like it but the added Cornwall heavy distortions that develops ( other issue is that that woofer goes down only at 34hz that means that can performs in good condition at no lower than 40hz, not enough for MUSIC reproduction. ). Yes, you can live with or with the distortions developed for other speakers because as a fact all speakers develops distortion levels.

Common sense is truly important for music lovers/audiophiles.


R.





Dear @dave_b : My take is that you can have all what you posted with the speakers you own making a modification that will permit your room/system goes to another up levels of quality sound reproduction.

The 802-D3 are very good units but the woofers crossover frequency is at higher frequency than what is desired. It crossover 350hz and this makes that the IMD and THD distortion levels goes high and that affect severely to the mid/high frequency ranges.

What IMHO you should make is two add two true self powered subs ( the one you have is not really a subwoofer and makes more damage than help to your sound reproduction. ) where the 802-D3 instead the woofers crossover at 350hz will be crossing at around 80hz-90hz this means that now the main speakers will be liberated of those bass frequency range and believe it: your system will shines as never before with a mig/high ranges in all its spledor you can get and at the same time the really dificult bass range will be handled by dedicated and specific woofers designed for this frequency range and handled by dedicated and specific designed amplifiers crossing at 80hz-100hz.

With all those the THD and IMD distortions will goes really lower and the main amplifier will performs better than ever and with incremented headroom.

So you need those pair of true subs that normally comes with the software to been integrated in an " easy " way at the room/system. You need too an external active crossover that could be:

http://old.bryston.com/products/other/10B-SUB.html

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.