Looking for great tube integrated for Martin Logan Summit X speakers
It's very odd you've singled out sacd as a culprit of the sibilance, if anything I have found sacd and dsd (sacd with the flag) too mellow in that area and un-naturally smooth. with non of the excitement and drive that RedBook PCM has got. And then also you said the Sanders amp reduced the sibilance. Cheers George |
as long of an output impedance as possible."as low of an output impedance as possible." Spelling correction for astelmaszek Chers George |
We'll see. Go back and read, the OP's got some negative questions on the sibilance area of frequency range, and you from memory can understand measurements should know, that esl's don't do sibilance, if anything they excel in that area being smooth, sweet and transparent. But the PL's upper rising HF FR peak is not a good measurement and a concern with the low impedance of the Summits. And could be the cause. |
The smills59 OP will be back after the tube glow thing has has lost it’s appeal, for the right amp for the Summits as bigddesign3 did with a Krell. As Martin Logan said Summits need current to sound at their best. (BTW current and amps are the same to whoever thought they were different) Cheers George |
All they shared was that the amplifier needs to have enough amps and current to drive the speakers. Not much help there, unfortunately. Yes that says a lot, and what I've been trying to tell you. Tube amps cannot do current like solid state amps can, especially the ones being bandied around in this thread. Amp that do current well, are ones that can almost double their full output wattages from 8ohm to 4ohm and again from 4ohm to 2ohm EG: the hypothetical perfect amp that does current well, (there are always losses though) 100w at 8ohms 200w at 4ohms 400w at 2ohms Cheers George |
Technically, you may be right, but we all have to judge with our ears and for all of us this is a continuing journey not a one-and-done. Not when someone could dump money on this https://ibb.co/NZLXFcf that has no chance of getting the very best out of the Summits. It’s better if the do-gooders that can’t decipher measurement, not to say anything if not sure when speakers as hard as these to drive are in the discussion. You’ll just waist the OP’s time and money!!!!! So some of the tubers may eventually come to agree with your point of view, but they’ll do it when they’re ready.Really!!! throw money at it and don’t get it right at first is your moto? |
Are you trying to say that I shouldn’t rely on the manufacturer’s responses?They are wanting to sell an amp, it will work, but it won't get the best out of the Summits. What you should do instead of wasting time and money seeing now your going around in circles. Is to ask Martin Logan what amp out of the three PL , Rogue, and Sanders will drive the Summits to their best sound possible seeing your stuck on these. And then ask them what amps they have heard that get the very best out of them, then you’ll get an idea of what you’ll need, instead of listening to the non technical on what can drive this hard impedance and capacitive loading. Cheers George |
I decided to call Rogue Audio this morning and ask them about their Chronow Magnum III integrated https://happyasapiginmud.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/frustrated-bear.jpg |
They were John Atkinson words sunshine, he knows more in his little toe than you’ll ever know. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1701980 |
The only problem you say your getting, is with "T" "C" "S" sounds I have a friends with Summits, both series 1 and 2 "X" None of them experience any sibilance at all, in fact they are all very transparent and delicate in the highs, as are my own Monolith III’s with the newer Neolith panels. If I ever had to get rid of the huge Monoliths, the Summit’s are what I would get instead. the speaker is innocent, look at what driving them. Here is what John Atkinson said about the strange HF peak which starts it's rise at 8khz in the measurements. " Note the peak between 30 and 50kHz in fig.1. This peak was at its highest from both taps into 8 ohms and higher impedances, but disappeared when the load impedance was well below the nominal transformer-tap value. But with the tap matched to the load, this peak was associated with a significant amount of overshoot on a 1kHz squarewave (fig.2), though a 10kHz squarewave revealed that the consequent ringing was critically damped (fig.3), the amplifier maintaining its stability." Cheers George |
"T" "C" "S" are all sibilant sounds, as I said in a link above the hard areas for an with the Summits are 5khz to 20khz (the sibilance area) and again 3.5khz (presence area of the mids). And the Prima Luna has a very odd high frequency boost in the top end which I believe to be output transformer oscillation which could very well exaggerate "sibilance". https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg Cheers George |
As I said before these are the two areas the PL would have trouble with "The hard load points are at: At 5khz to 20khz (a 2 octave spread) may show as distant subdued high frequency. (But the Prima Luna has an odd peak up there, that says to me output transformers are ringing (oscillating). This "could" counter to a degree that problem, but in a very crude way.) And again at 3.5khz this may soften the presence area of the mids" Cheers George |
I have owned a Primaluns Dialouge 1 Intergrated No sorry it’s the other way around. ML’s https://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/martin-logan-summit-x-impedance-phase-graph.g... King sound https://www.stereonet.co.nz/wp/wp-content/uploads/attachments/118797=3977-KS3000%20Measurements.jpg Cheers George |
"George and others, what should I listen for that will show me the limitations of tubes with my speakers? As I said above a tube amp that’s a good design, but doing it hard into this load of the Summits. The hard load is at: At 5khz to 20khz may show a distant subdued high frequency. And again at 3.5khz this may soften the presence area of the mids You may "characterize" this as sweet and euphonic at first listen. Then after a while, even a week or two you may understand that it’s not what it should be, and that "the life" is missing from the music, detail, attack, presence and harmonic decay are waning. Saying all this is with a tube amp that behaves itself in the top end. But the Prima Luna has an odd peak up there, that says to me output transformers are ringing (oscillating). This "could" counter to a degree the statements I make above but in a very crude way. https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg Cheers George |
graphs are meaningless if you don’t like the sound True, but all graphs and measurements are the basis for a good product They save a lot of time if you can understand them selecting the good from the bad. And can save you a lot of time knowing what will be compatible electronically with what, instead of wasting money and time on things that have no chance of being compatible. Knowing if they have a good Electronic Engineering design to start with, and are not just a poor design that’s someone has thrown together in a nice glitzy box without any regard for measurements or testing. Cheers George |
Just spoke to Roger at Sanders. I ordered the ESL Mk II Sanders amps are a great anmps and match for his ESL's which is said are not as hard to drive as the Summits. Read this owner with one, that keeps popping fuses with the ML Montis which are a little easier to drive compared to your Summits. https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/260674-blowing-fuses-on-a-sanders-esl-mkii/?tab=comments#comm... Cheers George |
Sorry to say save your money, the Prima Luna will be a big failure on these, look at the black wavy line, that’s it’s deviation from the ideal flat line!!, and that’s it driving a "very easy simulated Kantor speaker load". Your Summits will make it look 2 to 3 times worse!!. https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg Cheers George |
smills59 OP I’d look at a s/h John Curl designed Parsound Halo Integrated Hint, or it’s successor the Parsound Halo Integrated Hint 6, both have ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC in it and phono stage. These will drive the Summits fine, as they are bjt output and can give good current 45 amps into those nasty impedance’s of the Summits. http://www.parasound.com/hint6.php I wouldn’t bother the the Prima Luna on these speakers it will act like a tone control. Cheers George |
Forgot to mention, also at 250hz there’s a 4ohm -60 degree phase angle load which will equate to around 2ohms EPDR ( equivalent peak dissipation resistance ), that will also be hard for a tube amp to drive. This is the power region, which will give good "body" to lower/mids if driven correctly. Cheers George |
All you have to do is look at this impedance curve, with a 4ohm load and and negative 65 degrees of - phase angle at 3.5khz you have an amp busting load that would seem to be blow 2ohm!!! EPDR. Then again at 5khz to 20khz it goes from 2ohm down to 1ohm. http://www.prespeaker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/martin-logan-summit-x-impedance-phase-graph.gif No tube amp will get the best from these speakers, unless it has lots of global feedback is over 100watts and has an output transformer specifically designed to be 2ohms. The best amp to get the very best out of these are solid state and ones that can "almost" double their wattage from 8ohm to 4ohms and then from 4 ohms to 2ohms. Cheers George |
