Mapman,
You summed it up succinctly and I agree with you. This audio quest is an individual pursuit for certain.
Charles, |
Al, I should have been more specific. Darby also reviewed the Frankenstein
in its own separate report and he mentioned the Frank-Super Victory
combo listening at this 100db SPL level(written below the Jessica Alba
analogy). So yes it was not in the SV speaker review. |
You have good taste and these three brands are highly respected and
admired. I'll offer this opinion, SET amplifiers will potentially sound best
with simpler- minimalist speaker crossovers and higher(and flat) ohm
loads. All three of these speakers are high sensitivity, but the Orangutan
and the
Coincident have higher ohm load and I believe simpler xovers than
Daedalus ( relatively speaking). Of course the amplifier matters, are you
seeking 300b, 845, 211, 2A3 tubes? The Daedalus "may" require
a bit more drive than the other two choices. I'm not sure Daedalus
recommends SET amplifiers with the same unbridled enthusiasm as the
other two models(specifically built with SET in mind) you list. The
Orangutan is a simple two way with one xover. Coincident is a 3 way but
strives for minimal capacitor use. Daedalus models have 3 or 4 xover
boards per the web site description. In reality I don't know how much it
comes into play, but it's a more complex xover network in comparison. At
the very least it's a factor to keep in mind. Good luck to you. |
Room size will determine the appropriate speaker choice as Metralla points
out. The Super Victory is said to work well in small to moderately large
rooms. The Total Victory V better for substantial sized spaces. Devore has
an Orangutan 0/93 for smaller rooms. In the mentioned price range is the
Austrian made Trenner-Friedl Pharoah which is considered SET friendly. A
lot depends on which type of SET will be used and room size. There are
very respected folks on this site who love their Zu Definitions IV speakers,
though they may need some space to sound their best.Many fine choices/
combinations are possible.
Charles, |
Al,
Thanks for the further clarification on the Daedalus speakers. 6-8 ohm flat
impedance could work out pretty well with a "robust" 300b SET
but would probably be a safer bet with a good 845 SET amplifier.
Sometimes it is hard to predict an amplifier and speaker pairing. Al your
caution regarding the Devore Silverbacks is well reasoned. Yet when Jules
Coleman reviewed this speaker for 6 Moons he eventually preferred his 8
watt Shindo W.E. 300b amp over higher power amplifiers he had tried, so
who knows? Jules listens to a lot of larger scale classical music and jazz.
In an ideal world we'd be able to audition everything in our homes prior to
buying them. In reality we're often limited to relying on rational speculation
and the experiences of component owners with their individual
perspectives. Actusreus how large is your room? What particular SET amps
are you interested in?
Charles, |
Actusreus,
I don't listen to very much rock or electric blues music ( I'm probably 90%
acoustic small and large scale varieties). When I do play rock it is
"very" good at moderate and loud volumes there's much
palpable energy, flow and presence. Drums are noticeably dynamic and
deliver much impact and the overall sense of timing is exceptional IMO.
The Stereo Mojo review that Metralla cited earlier is accurate and James
Darby captured the essence of the Coincident pairing well. He said he could
listen at 100db average SPLs without sensing any strain or running out of
gas( and he has a very spacious listening room). I don't know what your
volume levels are but I'm much lower, average
for me is 75-85 db range. Most often I'm using fractions of 1 watt of power.
Again withyour speaker list I don't believe that you'll go wrong given you
room size. I think the SV might be the better fit vs the larger Total Victory(
which has two 12"" woofers per speaker).
Based on my experience I believe you would be satisfied with either a good
quality 300b or 845 SET.845s will generally cost more and offer more power
( which you may or may not need). I'd focus more on the amplifier's built
quality and execution.
with its two 12" woofers per speaker.
Charles, |
The Daedalus does have specifications that would seem to make them excellently suited for low powered SET amplifiers. They very well may be, the one difference may have to do with crossover design. It appears the Devore and Coincident may employ simpler ( minimalist) crossover networks which "could" be easier on a SET(just speculation). Daedalus uses 3 or 4 crossover boards and a number of poly caps. Does this matter? I don't know. Auditioning these various speakers of interest with the SET of choice is the only way to get a definitive answer.Measurements and specifications are obviously useful but no substitute for direct listening.
Charles, |
Too be fair Lou doesn't discourage the use of SET amplifiers. He just
doesn't advocate them to the same degree of enthusiasm as John Devore
and Israel Blume do with models specifically designed for these amps.
I agree with Truemaineiac, it's worthwhile to get out and hear these very
worthy speakers driven by a SET.
Charles, |
Al,
The saving grace is that the "vast" majority of recordings won't approach the 50 db dynamic range. Genre of music, room size and typical listening levels will determine sufficient power needs . classical and jazz seem to have less compression and thus a broader dynamic range in their recordings. Most pop and rock recordings are generally much more compressed as you noted. 8 watts is fine for my needs and listening levels but may not be for another listener. Another consideration is quality level of the SET amp (transfomers and power supply). One 8 watt amp could struggle while another sounds effortless.
Charles, |
Mapman,
I'll disagree with you on this point. The example Al cited of dynamic range
45-55db is actually quite rare for the overwhelming# of recordings ( his are
very special cases). My 8 watt SET replaced my 100 watt push pull tube
amp well over 4 years ago, it simply outperformed it. Dynamics, authority,
overall scale are very, very cose ( minimal loss) all other parameters
improved noticeably, tone, nuance, inner detail, presence and most
importantly, naturalness. If this weren't so I'd gone back to the 100watt
amp. So much is predicated on the speaker involved. Some of this really
depends on preferred listening volume, my SET can go louder than what I
care to listen to.
What was and remains highly successful for me may not be for others
(that's
true of most anything). My jazz and big band recordings have comparable
dynamic range to classical music and more than most rock and pop
recordings. When I do play orchestral music it is very involving and
satisfying. I know of others who've had the same happy results as me in
this type of switch. Again each of us may have different experiences and
will choose based on that knowledge. All I can say is in my case the 8 watt
amplifier is an unquestionable upward move and there's no looking back.
I can't speak to your Zu example obviously, I wasn't there. Many happy Zu
users on this forum would probably give a different account of their
experiences. The truth is lower power amplifiers won't be the answer for
everyone and the same can be said for higher power amps. There are quite
a few people on this forum who listen to multiple genres of music and are
well satisfied with their low power amps.
Charles, |
Hi,
I can relate to your revelatory experience. I had two Push pull amps that
were switchable between modes.
1) 40 watt UL and 20 watt triode.
2) 100watt UL and 60 watts triode.
In both of these amplifiers I much preferred the triode mode as the sound
was simply better/more natural IMO. It gets even better if you use true
triode tubes ( rather than pentodes strapped as triodes). I'm bias toward
DHT(directly heated triode) tubes which are very linear(and can get by with
little or no NFB added). When used in a SET or push pull configuration (if
good design and implementation) can further what you've described. It
must be emphasized that a proper speaker must
be chosen to extract the full potential sound that SETs are capble of.
I think you're headed in a good direction. The 300b is a very popular DHT (
but there's other good alternatives as well). My amp is SET, Al's VAC
Renaissance 70/70 is an excellent example of 300b push pull amplifier.
Just depends on what you want/need to drive your speakers.
As Gsm18439 alluded to, all SET amplifiers aren't created equal.
Once you find your desired amp-speaker combo I belive you'll be amazed
and very pleased.
Charles, |
I'd suspect that a circuit that is reliant on a feedback loop(as Ralph described) is not in the direction of SET sound (generically speaking). One of the "major" attractions of SET amplifiers is their simplicity and lack of need for NFB. Now which direction one chooses to follow is certainly individual choice.
Charles, |
Flexibility limitations can exist in both directions (inevitably). Low efficiency speakers lessen the choice of amplifiers that can drive them. Honestly either option can work out successfully. Fortunately there are enough fine high efficiency speakers available to satisfy the low power amplifier aficionados among us, so all is good. |
Compromise at some level is expected when making decisions concerning
audio components. It's true that opting for low power amplifiers does rule
out the use of some speakers due to insufficient drive ability.
On the flip side there are those who believe some of the best sound they've
heard has been via good quality lower power amplifiers( SET or PP, tube or
transistor). The selection of the lower efficiency (hard to drive) speaker
would eliminate the opportunity to take advantage of these types of
amplifiers. There isn't an universal "fit all" amplifier available
the will suit every circumstance favorably. Even an ultra powerful amp that
could drive virtually any speaker load known to mankind doesn't imply that
it'd
necessarily sound "good" with every speaker. Capability to drive
and
also providing desired sound quality are two different things. This why
we're all lucky to have such a wide range of choices in what is actually a
small niche endeavor (high end audio). Most of us eventually find what
sounds best to our individual ears playing the music we love.
Charles, |
With the vast reduction of B and M stores around now there's limited opportunity to hear speakers in a showroom anymore. Once you step outside the usual high end brands the pool of candidates to hear in dealer showroom are small be they high, moderate or low efficiency speakers. As Gary said, you don't know until you have the speaker in your own room to carefully audition. So most of us face the same dilemma regardless of the type of speaker being sought.
Charles, |
