Very dependent on what the power entering your house looks like and how a conditioner works in your system. Auditioning is key here. To your list I would add a balanced power conditioner (Equi-tech, for example) and the Running Springs lines (known for not restricting dynamics, which other power conditioners can do). Both are excellent in my experience (with my power and my system). I have also heard good things about Audience conditioners but no chance to listen.
Hang in there and youll get more suggestions than you know what to do with. Call Jerry at Audio Magic. Ive used his PCs for 7 years, and have upgraded along the way. If you can go for the $$ you will not be disappointed. Jerry is a good guy and will help you out. He may have some returns for upgrades. Long time to break in, so what else is knew. Keep us posted.
PS Audio products regenerate, but still have a percentage of messed up power based on the percent bad coming in.
So they do NOT create a 'perfect' sinewave output. Just a better one.
Plus they use a lot of power. Double what they create.
They are basically a power amplifier set to make a powerful 60hz tone...
I own one, but that one (PS Audio P600) is special because it can be set to vary the frequency of the A/C output.
I have it set to output 110hz A/C for my digital gear.
Ps audio regeneration is hard to beat, but I must admit the Audio magic is excellent too.
I found the audio magic to with SET amps keeps a little more harmonic richness although ps audio regeneration with multi wave is almost as rich but with slightly more clinical feel or more itched soundstage.
I have not had very good luck with PS audio products. MUCH more happy with the stuff from Audio Magic. The AM blue dot paired with the current generation Mini Reference is superb.
Brownfan, do you like the Samson Maple Shade? I'm think on that...
Richard Gray fan here. Check out his website.
Getting power products right can be very difficult for many reasons. Its not like interconnects or speaker cables in the way you can get some consistant results from system to system. 2 people can have the same exact system but they will not have the same AC. Results are all over the place. Its just as easy to poor sound as it is to better your SQ.
In my opinion, there's only 1 way to do power products properly. You need to do an in home demo before you buy anything. I use The Cable Company (fatwyre.com). I don't know of any other place that can even come close to what they can do for you. Just call them up and tell them what you want to try, and a few days later you get a box with everything in it. They charge 5% of the total value of whatever they lend you. You can get the 5% back if buy something from them. It can be anything they sell, not just the stuff they lend you. The only expense you can't recover is shipping. I've been using them for years and can't say good about them. I wouldn't consider using anyone else.
Warrenh you are correct. A lot of suggestions which is good. Sounds like a lot of people have had great success with the Audio Magic. I will give them a look.
Zd542 thanks for the recommendation. I will give them a call.
Warrenh, not to hijack the thread, but yes I really like the mapleshade rack. It is even prettier than the pictures show. And it is just solid as a rock. I spent most of Dec 21st close by, just in case i needed to dive in between the 2nd and 3rd shelves.
Check out Purepower regenerators. I have the PP 1500+ and think it brings the whole system up to a different level.
You should try one in your own system to hear if you like it. I tried many and came to the conclusion that they do more harm than good IN MY SYSTEM.
Hi, I agree that most line conditioners sound worse than none.I live in the country and found out that going with dedicated lines sound better in my system. I have 3, one for the power amps, one for the preamp and other analog gear, and one for the digital gear. And upgraded AC outlets make a nice improvement also. I like the not to costly 20A Hubbell's. I also agree to talk with The Cable Company about your system and what you are trying to improve sound wise. Good luck.
Zd542 offers good advice.I`ve used a BPT BP-3.5 Signature Plus conditioner which provides balanced AC power.Its been in my system nearly 4 years and will stay there.My experience has been the opposite of Stringreen. I`ve gotten improvement in sound quality across the entire musical spectrum,no downside or compromise for me. As always YMMV.
Try to hear the new Plasmatron from vh audio. Factory direct only. We compared it to the PS Audio regeneration system. No contest. The PT was not just a little better. But few believe what other philes hear as tastes vary. Hear one for yourself. A new Ps Audio owner heard one and said he had to get one. They are that good. They are not cheap, 3500-4000.00 for the small one. The digital improvement was substantial. Don't throw out the PS. The PT doesn't do surge protection. Use both. Mine arrives in late January. I have no financial interest with Plasmatron or vh audio. Jallen
I have had great results with BPT, no downside in my system. Give them a call, their products can be customized for your specific needs and budget.
The Richard Gray stuff was the very worst in MY system. Those who are using this should try it without and listen...you can always put it back in.
I have had both Richard Gray and BPT at various stages of my system evolution. Both were adequate at best. Since my home system has now gotten up there in both quality and bucks, I recently searched for a viable solution. I tried a PS audio P-10 in my new office system. It cleaned up the power and did not in ANY way limit dynamics, etc. Noise floor dropped considerably.
As an experiment, I took the P-10 home and put it on one of my VAC 450 Statements. Same result - lower noise floor, cleaner power and absolutely no limitation on dynamics. I ordered 2 more P-10s for my home system and they are working great.
People who have had issues with prior PS Audio pieces were usually trying to drive an entire system with just one conditioner. That usually won't work well, as they have discovered. I have not heard of ANYONE having problems with the new P-10, especially if they are realistic in their expectations. I now have 1 feeding each amp with the other assorted components split evenly between them. The sound is considerably better as noise went from .4% THD going in to .02% THD going to my components. In addition, power fluctuation went from between 114v and 129v to a steady 120v, which is user adjustable.
Bottom line - this best, easiest, most user friendly and flexible solution I have found that both protects my system from various electrical hiccups, dramatically lowers the noise floor, yet allows me to really hear my music. My system has never sounded as resolving and open as it does now. Each p-10($5K retail) has plenty of headroom capacity so dynamics also sound great in my system. I also like the portability, giving me flexibility for years down the road, as opposed to putting something inside the wall, for example. At a glance, I can instantly get a status check of my systems electrical health. And no, I have no connection to PS Audio other than being a very satisfied customer.
I use to think the same thing about the Richard Gray that it was thin sounding. My system now is all VAC and I can tell you that the Richard Gray made a huge improvement. It takes away a slight edge or brightness in the upper mids or grain that I attribute to the AC. It also gives me way more dynamics. The key is to plug everything into the Gray including your amplifier. Oh, yes I have six dedicated 20amp 10 gauge lines on their own breaker box with its own dedicated ground. No going back for me.
I have owned several "Power conditioners".Including PS Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic , MIT and others.
But, the best so far for me is the Audience with the new Teflon caps.
However, the top of the line Audience 12 outlet unit the aR 12-TS is like $9000!
So, since I have 3 dedicated circuits, instead of buying the Audience 12 outlet unit, I bought 3 of the aR2p-TO's units (Retail for $1600 each). These units only have 2 oulets, but you can add a power strip. I got a break in price for buying multiple units and wow, did my system jump up a lot in sound quality.
Hi Ozzy. Are you using the Audience R2p-TO's in conjunction with the Synergistic Powercell 10 SE?
Right On! guys,
the best combo of Richard Gray products is the 600S paired w/ the Substation. Check out the website for additional info on these 2 products. Happy Listening!
Is it me or is spending upwards of $3000.00 + for power conditioners that may or may or may not make a difference seem a little overkill? For that kind of money it better make a huge difference. Does the OP have reason to believe his AC is compromised? and if so how was that determination made. I can't help but think that money could be better utilized elsewhere like perhaps on new music?
After hearing the Plasmatron, I had to rethink my skepticism of line treatment of any kind...power cords, filters, ac plugs etc. The difference was greater than going from a Benchmark to a Berkeley DAC. With that kind of a diffetence I verified it by hearing comparisons in several systems. I recommend the same. The best thing I can tell you is to not undetestimate AC treatment. The problem is most AC treatment I have heard in the past is too slight to get excited about. I was not excited about the sound from the Grey or PS audio. The sound wasn't worse, just not much better. Very slight at best. When I get my unit and live with it for a couple of months I will write a more thorough review. Jallen
you go your work cut for you.
I have the new PP2000+ and on my digital end it's the best to date but on my analog front it causes some sort of grounding issue. Can't figure it out. Want one cheap?
My experience is very similar to Ozzy's. I have had lots of power conditioners - Monster, PS Audio, Shunyata, Richard Gray, audience (with and without teflon capacitors) - and at each price point, audience proved to be the best. Shunyata was also very good, but I definitely prefer audience.
I started with the Monster Cable 3500, then moved up to their 7000 (which was much better - I soon realized that the 3500 was very bad sounding and the 7000 was less degrading to the sound, but I had to go in a different direction. I tried the Richard Gray unit (he left monster to make these conditioners the way he had originally intended). This was a big improvement over the monsters, but now I was interested to see what else was out there.
I bought the PS Audio Power Port Premier next. Because of the different designs of these different conditioners, it is not always easy to compare them. One might sound better with digital sources (because of its filtration), but it might also make vinyl sound lifeless. Overall, the PS Audio was very good, but it definitely did not help with amplifiers. Next I tried audience, as I am a big fan of their cables and disc cleaner.
I bought the audience aR2p and connected it to a Wiremold powerstrip, and the amount of improvement/dollar was outstanding. All components sounded better than any of the other conditioners. Then I tried a Shunyata Hydra-2 and found it was a bit better with my digital gear, but my analog sources and amplifiers sounded better with the aR2p/wiremold, so I kept all 3.
After using the Hydra-2 for a while, I upgraded by CD Player and found that the Hydra-2 was no longer better than the aR2p on my digital gear.I decided to sell the audience aR2p and Shunyata Hydra-2 and move up to the aR2p-TO (with Teflon capacitors). This was the biggest power conditioner improvement I had made! I saved up and sold the aR2p-TO and moved up to the aR6-T. The isolation between outlets made another big improvement, so I was content with my power for quite a while.
As my system expanded, I moved up to the aR12-T and am very happy with my AC. FYI, I have found that JPS Labs makes the best power cables for my system, and I have tried even more brands of power cables!
WOW thanks for the comments and multiple recommendations. Of course I can't try everything but will utilize the Cable Company as I believe they carry quite an assortment of gear that I can try in my home.
Metman this is like asking how do you know you need/want new cables? As I went through trying new power cables I noticed noise I contributed to coming from my AC line. Is the money one would spend on power better utilized for something else? That is user dependent. I guess one could say that for everything. I will find out as I try a few products I guess. If the improvement or lack of improvement in sound justifies the purchase I guess the answer would be yes. If not than no.
My suggestion is see what you can get your hands on and try them. Some of the products mentioned above might not be available to you. If they aren't my suggestion is omit them from your list. Listen to them in your home in your system and whichever one sounds best that is the one for you.
Also try and set a price. If your price is 3K then only listen to units below the 3K price. I have heard great things about all of the ones you list but none in my system. I use to own a Equi=Tech unit and loved it. Is it better or worse than the ones you list? Who knows, I just know what I had and loved. Of the 3 you list I have heard raves about the Bybee but again I have not heard it in my system.
The recommendations from this forum can shed light on products you haven't considered but at some point you will have to narrow the list down.
Good luck and let us know which way you go. Remember make the decision you like not what we like.
Just my 0.02 (before taxes)
What is great in one system can be dreadful in another. AC treatment is trickey so audition with all sources and keep it for a week if possible. JALLEN
Firstly, have an electrician run two dedicated lines for you. One for digital and one for your amp. If you cannot hear a difference you may want to bag a PC. Albert Portor Cryo Ports. This is a cost effective way to get into power conditioning; isolating dirty electric and keeping your front end [inexpensively] isolated from your amp. It's a win win situation. Now you have dedicated outlets to plug in your Audio Magic. Then you can begin to change your entire rig...lol...don't laugh too loud; that's what happened to me..
I recently have been doing a lot of research on this subject. My neighbor, an EE and programmer is a pharmaceutical instruments product developer. He and I spoke in length about the merits of balanced power for sensitive medical equipment and how balanced power adds a measurable amount of AC resolution without spikes, jitter, or artifacts that one would associate with bad AC.
They use http://www.toroid.com/transformer_manufacturer/contact.htm
I am not sure what your budget is, but a cost effective way of achieving both; clean power and balanced, is to use one of the PC from PS audio or any other company you decided on, and perhaps one of the Equitech products or equivalent, to get absolute clean and balanced power.
My neighbor is going to let me try out one of his 6KW torroid transformers this week to see what results I can get on my system. Not sure how I would plug that into a 2.4KW outlet, hmmm.
I too have looked at cost effective solutions, short of an all out wall mount isolation transformer, something like 300plus pounds, I think the recommendations on this forum here are all valid.
Chang Lightspeed is what I'm looking into
Here is an interesting write up for you:
I like the idea of this combination. It could be deemed cost effective, depending on how many watts you need to condition.
what is your rig comprised of? Inquiring minds want to know.
Slik, do not do power conditioing on the cheap. Dedicated lines will do more for you than any Chang. Looking over your beautiful rig: I would not let a plug of yours near a Chang. Your system deserves dedicated lines and a serious PC. Your system will sound even better. HNY
Here is a quick overview of my equipment. I removed my profile because I moved from Germany and I am just settling into a new house with a new music room.
4 dedicated 20 amp circuits + 4 Maestro outlets
Octave Jubilee preamp with outboard voltage rectifying power supply, also serves as power filter
Octave MRE 130 (140 watts) mono amps with Super Black box = super black box is high capacitance outboard power supply, serves as power filter and AC power boost for the mono amps
Aesthetix IO Signature phono amp/one power supply
Copulare amp and equipment rack stands
2 SME V arms/Benz LP S/Benz Ruby Z/Transrotor Merlo MC/Goldring MC
B&W Nautilus 800 speakers
Subs: B&W Nautilus 850 15" sealed sub-ZSU Research 15" sealed sub
Turntable: Transrotor Apollon TMD/80mm platter/3 motors/2 arm mounts/Transrotor Konstant M3 outboard motor controller
(estimated weight 120lbs)
Clearaudio MontBlanc turntable stand (250 pounds)
Silent Wire reference EU Shuko power cables/for Octave gear/220-120 volt stepup-up/down-power isolation transformer for Octave gear
AC Cables: Shunyata Anaconda - Black Mamba and assorted Neotech
Power Filter strips: Isotek(220 and 120 volt versions)
Krell SACD Standard
Nordost (preamp to phono amp), Silver Breeze (phono), Neotech copper IC's with silver WBT's, and Audioquest Sky (Krell to preamp)
I think that about does it. I will post a generic pic sometime in the future.
I have also been on the power conditioner train. I have tried Ps audio, Equi-tech, Shunyata and Audience. None of them made my system any better. It didn't sound worse just not better. I decided to put in dedicated lines and better power cords. I still can't say my system sounds better. One thing that made a huge difference was changing my pre-amp. That made my system much more Involving. I would say before you spend thousands of dollars on power conditioners look to the weakest link in you're component chain and change that. I also recommend the cable company for their loaner program.
Taters, I totally agree with your assessment. I could never understand the AC hype until I heard the Plasmatron. I had a friend who wanted to do an audition of AC tweaks and letting curiosity override skepticism I participated. We compared the PT against the Bit 20, a very credible product if one believes the press, and the difference was like a good tube preamp to a cheap ss unit. Now, not every system was as dramatic in comparisons. This system had 2 dedicated lines, TAD Reference, Ypsilon preamp Synergestic cables and has been a system as good as I have heard. Will the PT have this effect for you? I don't know. I just recommend you try to hear one and why not a Bit 20, what works for one-------
Best Wishes for the New Audio Year, Jallen
Can you please elaborate on this Plasmatron device? I have never heard of it. Where can I find out more information about this? My searches on the Internet reveal plasma cutters and other plasma related finds, nothing about isolation transformers.
Jallen, I went to his website and there is no mention of a Plasmatron. Can you give me more Information?
I do not see Audio Magic on your endless list of losers. Put one on your digital lines and one on your amp. Jerry has minis. It's time you had a winnner.
A nice 2nd option would be a Richard Gray pro 400 + Pole Pig.
Happy New Year.
You will have to call the phone number on the website and odds are that Chris hinself will pick up the phone and give you all the details. He is setting it up so that you can have two or 4 outlets, and decide on the type of outlets. I chose Rhodium with Furutech as did most listeners. The exterior can be gold, silver or black. The construction is of aerospace aluminum. Tolerances are very tight. Chris is very anal about details and anticipates the one I receive will be slightly better than the one we had for demo. He was so confident, he offered a return policy of ----I can't recall, but 2-4 weeks or so, if buyers paid shipping.
My understanding was there were going to be minor cosmetic changes so he was waiting until the first order arrives to have the most accurate photos. From all I could find research wise, the unit targets the phase angle and and enhances AC alignment. I asked for more tech details but the details are a bit guarded as one might suspect. Similar technology was used in submarines for radar according to a military engineer I know. He was surprised the technology had not been tapped yet. I am currently in Brazil and will return to CA Sunday and will find some preliminary photos so you can have a look at the unit. Demo units are scheduled with the first batch arriving mid month. It really is worth the demo. Jallen
Jallen, I went to his website and he say's he doesn't take calls. He states on his websites he only does business through e-mail.
Warrenh, I have bought cables from Jerry before. He's a nice man.