See the Asylum. Mixed bag so far. Nice marketing spin, IMO.
54 responses Add your response
Ozzy, I can give you some INITIAL impressions. I have a 1M Cerious IC (RCAs) that I just received last Friday. Keep in mind these are my impressions in my system, and as always, ymmv.
In a few words, I highly think they are worth trying in one's system. They do so many things very well.
Overall, the Cerious are very smooth, musical cables, and they are toe-tapping fun to listen to (I can listen to them for hours). They are very quick sounding, transients come thru with ease and authority. Bass is very well controlled, in part probably due to the quickness of the cable, but it goes quite deep as well. These are not lean, nor are they unnaturally full.
They soundstage very well (acceptable depth and width); very good, stable imaging, great center fill, but I would certainly not call them ultra detailed. One area that really impresses the heck out of me is the midrange. It is a little forward (to my liking and preference really), and it sounds so darn natural, almost live sounding. Voices come thru with emotion, feeling, and palpability.
Piano sounds like the percussive instrument that it should be, with proper weight and harmonics. Guitar sounds great with plucked strings and its resonating body afterwords.
So are there any drawbacks? At this point in time, without them being fully broken in (yes, I feel they require burn-in, as they have improved in the couple of days that I have had them), it's hard to say. I would say that I had to turn my attenuator up one or two notches higher than copper to get the same output level. The treble sounded just fine after a day of having the cable, but yesterday, it sounded ever so slightly soft. BUT, I was also burning in another cable for a friend, so that may have had something to do with it, I didn't investigate further. Either way, I would not call it rolled off as other reviews would have you think, but then, it doesn't reach the stratosphere either.
They are a little rigid, but I had no problems in placing them. They use similiar, if not the same RCA connectors as the Acoustic Zen Matrix used to use (still use?), which I don't mind at all.
These have a lot of potential!
Ozzy - I responded to your e-mail and you can do a search for my previous comments, what other cables I've heard, etc. I genuinely think people are hearing what the REST of their system sounds like when they use these cables (at least the interconnects - I've not heard the speaker cable). In my system they are clearly not spongy on the bottom or rolled off in the highs. As with anything else, however, the system may require some tweaking afterward. Over and over, I find the best components reveal problems elsewhere(one of the great by-products of them!), enabling me to make some changes and get far better sound than before. I have no doubt at all that some who insert these cables and expect nirvana may be disappointed otherwise.
1marker, jfz, stanhifi
Thanks for the help.
Stanhifi how long did you have the cables and what did you use them with ?
Well I went ahead and ordered a pair. I guess there is no better way to tell but in my system.
I ordered a 2 meter balanced set and intend to use it between my APL 3910 and a old Krell KSA250 Amp.
I own a Audiodharma cable cooker seems like a day or so on the cooker might do the trick.
My experience mirrored Stanhifi's experience. I sent them back also.
The real deal breaker for any cable with me is the piano has to be tonally correct. The piano sounded like a reproduction of a piano in my system.
I am sure some will find that Cerious cables work well in their system, especially if their system is bright or edgy. As always, everything is system dependent.
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to bash the CT cables as they do some things very well, but they simply didn't work for me in my system.
Mr. Essential Audio....is it your custom to comment on products you've never owned, let alone never used? Ozzy is a long-time Cable Cooker owner, and has infinitely more experience with the unit, and with multiple models and brands of audio and video cabling. Further, he's a pretty smart cookie and may not need your "help" regarding these cables....you're not even a dealer for them. Did you not reason at all, that since he ordered the interconnects directly from Cerious (and therefore may have talked with Mr. Grost himself), that he might ask some questions as to their need for any break-in or conditioning?
You've been making these types of comments over and over the last several years (both on Audiogon and AA), usually making baseless and/or completely inaccurate statements about the Cooker....one might think you have an agenda.
There's only one problem with your logic here:
"I genuinely think people are hearing what the REST of their system sounds like when they use these cables....I find the best components reveal problems elsewhere(one of the great by-products of them!)"
I would agree with your rationale if Stanhifi and myself said we heard MORE detail and extension with the CTs in place. But we both heard LESS information with the CTs in place which sort of shoots a hole in your theory. The CTs simply weren't as REVEALING as my current cables.
And there was also this nagging sense that the attack or leading edge was subdued. The CTs just didn't seem to hit hard anywhere across the frequency range. In my opinion that is why some may describe them as smooth. They are smooth, just to smooth for my taste.(And the piano tonality didn't work for me either, as I mentioned earlier.)
When I ordered the CT cables, Bob Grost said they did not need any burn-in since they are metal free. He advised me that they would sound best after 2-3 days time and he was right. Right out of the box they were extremely bloated, but they did improve greatly over the first few days.
The CT's have a very pleasing musicality about them, but they round off the ends and plump up the middle in my system. They remind me of the way Van Den Hul The First Ultimates sound (also metal-free IC's.) Actually, I think the VDHs sound better overall (at least more accurate), but the CTs do have better bass control than the VDHs. But neither the CTs nor the VDHs are nearly as good in my system as my HMS Gran Finales I have been using for some time.
As I said earlier, I am not trying to bash CTs here, but I do think there are better cables available for the money, IMHO. But as always, everything is system dependent. If the CT cables work for you in your system, who am I to say you are wrong. If they sound good to you, I'm happy for ya.
Ozzy- I'm glad you decided to try them. Based on my own experience I think you will be quite pleased. From what I've read and in talking to Bob, I'm not sure too many people other than Fiddler have returned their cables.
You won't get any other answers from Stanhifi on his system. We've all asked before. IMO and in speaking with Bob, he never even auditioned them.
Ozzy - I wouldn't put them on your Audiodharma. I asked Bob Grost about this specifically, and he said "no". They need a few days to "settle in" (has to do with the liquid ceramic), but do not need the usual break-in per se.
Fiddler - Your results fascinate me, as I've been using the HMS Grand Finales for a long time as well! Just to clarify: my comments were not a theory, just my belief from experience. What is fascinating to me is that I had opposite results, although I posted sometime ago on another thread that initially I thought the CTs were rolled off in the highs as well. In the end (after tweaking!), I find the CTs have all the information of the HMS, but the fact that the CTs are much cleaner/quieter made me think at first that there was missing musical information (especially in the highs). The piano sound REALLY puzzles me, since in my system the CT's piano tonality is MUCH better than it was with the HMS. The leading edge or attack part makes much more sense to me, but again, - after making some changes, such as removal of room treatment - I find the leading edge and attack are even better (and far more REALISTIC) than with the HMS. My conclusion was that the HMS exaggerates and bloats the bottom end (fooling me for a while that it goes deeper than the CT) and hypes the highs a bit, but who REALLY knows which is more neutral. Just two different experiences in two different systems, I guess. The great news is that synergy is always important, i.e. so we both can enjoy our systems. Thanks for you thoughts. Hopefully both of our experiences will benefit others.
To others who might try the CTs: my suggestion is to give them a lot of time, and play with making other changes in the system, room, power conditioning, power cords, etc.
My belief is there is no right or wrong in this hobby, only preferences. The fact that we had opposite experiences can be chalked up to different systems in different rooms with different ears and brains listening. I have learned to take all comments or reviews with a grain of salt when it pertains to audio equipment and I would highly recommend that anyone take my comments with a whole shaker of salt.
I'm happy to hear that the CT cables have worked so well in your system and I certainly wish Bob Grost well with his cable and speaker endeavors.
Mr. Alanmkafton, aka Audio Excellence AZ and sole seller of the Cable Cooker, I suggest you take a deep breath and think before launching an attack on me. The intent of my post was not to badmouth the product you sell, which serves a purpose for some people, just to suggest to Ozzy that Bob Grost might have something to say about the use of such a device, which in fact he did, as Jfz reports. Is that too big a concept to grasp? As you deduced, I'm not a dealer for Cerious, but I respect Bob Grost's experience and background. How are you to know whether or not I've heard the cables? Over and out.
Glad to know you weren't badmouthing my product again. But Bob Grost, to my knowledge, hasn't used a Cooker either. That's neither here nor there, as his products look quite interesting, and more people are experiencing very good things with them. I always champion an innovator like Bob Grost....our hobby needs more clean-sheet-of-paper thinking.
A point I didn't make earlier is that a large number of cable manufacturers typically say that their cabling either doesn't need "break-in", or needs very little. Customers usually find their own experience to be different, needing quite a number of hours on the new cables, and sometimes requiring the use of a conditioning device such as mine to accelerate the process and further improve the playback.
The Cerious cabling uses a unique, non-metallic conductive material....but still uses synthetic dielectric materials that the Cable Cooker's multiplex signal also addresses. Whether this will be efficacious on the Cerious cables remains to be seen....someone will inevitably do the testing. But in my experience, it is highly-doubtful that there would be any harm, as you have previously, and wrongly stated. If I am reading the tea leaves correctly, Mr. Grost seems to feel that a Cooker, or similar device is "not necessary", as the ceramic material "doesn't need break-in"....just time to settle in. That is his experience to-date, and quite different from your statement "be careful", and its negative implication.
Thanks for the help and All the great opinions.
I did talk to Bob, maybe he has changed his way of thinking , because he told me the use of the Cable Cooker was a good thing. I will double check before I use it
Other interconnect cables that I own
HMS Grand Finale Top Match
Acoustic Zen Reference Silver 2
Kimber Select 1010
ElectraGlide Reference Silver
Ridgestreet Audio Poima!! Signature
Pure Note Cerelum
Cardas Golden Reference
Not to mention the many,many I have tried thru the Cable Company and thru home trials.
I only mention all these because all have benifited by the use of the Cable Cooker.
I still think 14 days is too short for a trial, but the construction of the cable lends me to think maybe these are different and maybe the break in time will be minimal.
Ceramic conductors might exhibit a higher resistance than metalic ones. A cooker which uses high current may cause excessive heat buildup in such conductors, and that heat might be beyond the design specifications of the product.
Just to be on the safe side, I'd consult the factory first before using any specific cooker on the CT or any non-metalic cables.
just my $0.002, i did try the cerious cables for a week or so, and found them to be very good in some areas ,and weak in others-- the mids were a bit overemphasised for my taste ,but well defined and open.
the highs were a bit rolled off , especially in cymbals and other hf notes. the bottom- end was weak and lacked the slam that like in my current siltech g6 series.
the digital cable ,on the other hand ,in my ht application is the best i 've heard at any price!, and it stayed in my system. the rest went back to bob, who is a class act ! can't say enough nice things about the man ,his approach ,and conduct!
bottom line?-- you got to try them for yourself, and make up your mind that way. we're here just for moral support... 8-)
Ozzy....when you next speak to Bob, please inform him that the current output on the Cooker's low-level circuit (for interconnects) is 120 milliamperes continuous. That should give him something to digest and compute. Special step-down adaptors can be made if that output level is a little high for his design. He is, of course, welcome to speak with me directly at any time, although I'll be in Denver for the Rocky Mountain show until Monday.
Thanks for the 'input', Serus....good thinking. Safety first, always.
Essential, those 2 cable manufacturers are TG Audio (what a surprise....you're Bob's dealer!) and Cardas. What do they both have in common? Neither have ever used the Cable Cooker. Hmmmm.
To be even more fair and open about this subject, there are also a couple or three other small manufacturers that initially enjoyed using the Cooker, but later decided they liked the sound of their cables without additional conditioning outside of a music system. That, of course, is a matter of their personal preference, and as a friend of mine likes to say...."that's what makes horse races". There are also a much larger number of cable manufacturers that wouldn't give up their Cookers, having found that using the device on their products was essential, and therefore became standard operating procedure. That's their preference as well.
Are you gonna let go of this, Brian?
Ozy - You are the 3rd person to say the CTs were rolled off in the highs, and I can certainly understand that perception. Please understand that I'm not saying - at all - that your perception is wrong. Everything is relative, however, and if a person had tweaked his system with the CTs he might think something else was hyped in the highs. I'm only posting this because you said you tried them for a week - so this makes me wonder if you tried anything like opening a curtain you had closed earlier when you listened - or things of that nature. After doing that sort of thing, I found these cables actually have the most natural highs I've ever heard. What fooled me at first was that they sounded rolled off too. When I made changes (also including toeing the speakers in a bit), it was a very different story. As far as the bass goes: I'm interested in naturalness, tonality, pitch definition, and texture, as this is what I hear when I attend jazz concerts, including those in the home of a friend of mine - with no electronic enhancement (i.e. I don't hear slam).
Just my experience and views. I'm feeling like I'm beating a dead horse because I've posted several times - so I'll stop after this. I just feel strongly about how natural and realistic these cables can make a system sound - and I'd hate to see people give up on them prematurely given the price. ONE MAJOR CAVEAT that I forgot about in previous posts: I have only tried the interconnects and the power cords. And I DID find the power cords to be almost all midrange (and a somewhat lean midrange at that).
In the end hopefully all our (differing) views are helpful to other people who might try these and other cables. And, as you say, others should do their own listening and decision making. Thanks for your humility and even-handed post.
Disclosure: I am a Stealth Audio distributor.
There exists cables which should not be "cooked". For example, we warn all purchasers of Stealth Indra, up front, that under no circumstances should these interconnects be used with any break in device other than normal use in their system. No exceptions. The warranty is void when the purchaser uses such devices.
I have no other interest in this debate. However I highly recommend that purchasers speak with the manufacturer or retailer before using any break in device simply to avoid any performance and/or warranty issues.
jfz---thamks for the kind words... this si afterall ,only a HOBBY , and should be treated as such.
there many great inventors out there, bob grost, alan kafton ,joe cohen , dave elrod, just to name a few, who labored hard for their final product and truely believe that it is the best thing out there.
it is our humble job ,if we choose to accept it, to verify these notions , for ourselves ,and see if they match our objectives in obtaining the best sound possible.
so , bottom line-- ozzy-(are we related???) try it for yourself ,and please let us know what you think.
Speaking of which, other than Audiofeil (no disrespecy but u r a dealer) has any one tried the Stealth Idra? I mean by reading 6moons, it definitely sounds like something I would like to at least try....unfortunately living in HK, I am doubtful i would be able to try it in my own system before purchasing...and they are indeed expensive.
Alan, you are out of line. I'm not going to satisfy your ego and curiosity by saying which manufacturers nor which cable break-in device(s) I referred to. Persecution complex? "To be even more fair and open about this subject", the electrical and safety considerations mentioned by Serus are something that should concern everyone.
Audiofeil....we should take the time to clarify things a bit more, for everyone's benefit. All-encompassing statements like "you shouldn't use it" do not explain the "why". Stealth cables, in particular the PGS and Indra, utilize extremely fine gauge conductors, and they are *not* designed to receive high current signals. For instance, the Indra is an interconnect, not a speaker cable or power cable, no? Another cable brand that should not be Cooked (on the regular 2.5 production model) is Omega-Micro....it utilizes an extraordinarily fragile foil. It's comparative gauge is too delicate for the current output of the Cooker, and would most certainly require a step-down resistive adaptor to accommodate that gauge. This solution would work, but no one has ordered such a custom adaptor, nor has anyone ordered an adaptor for their Stealth cables. And it wouldn't be that difficult to make....the adaptor would connect to the load end of the interconnect, and the male end (of the adaptor) simply inserted into one of the input RCA's on the chassis.
I spoke directly with Sergei more than 3 years ago, about utilizing the Cable Cooker with his products. Many of his cables, at the time, would have performed well and without incident....others, like the PGS, would not, as again the very fine conductors could not take the 120 milliamperes of steady-state current. The solution would be, and is, to create a step-down RCA adaptor to facilitate this requirement. The proper resistive formula is a simple matter of mathematics, and one that Sergei figured out in his head on the spot. We discussed building him a custom Cooker that would accommodate his specific needs and step-down requirements, but we never went further.
I absolutely agree that customers should contact a given manufacturer for guidance, especially when there are any doubts as to the compatibility (with the multiplex signal of the Cooker) and their given design or material compliment. I offer this very caveat with customers as S.O.P., and in fact discuss the issue directly with cable manufacturers when needed. When in doubt, always ask the question. 99% of the time, the concerns are groundless, and direct explanations of the signal compliment inform both the manufacturer and customer.
I just realized that this is a thread about the Cerious Technologies cables. I hardly recognize what I hear in these postings. I have had the G5 Siltechs, the Indra, the Acapellas, the Purist Audio, the Vacuum Reference, the Jena Labs, the PureNotes, the RS Audio, the Bogdans, the Valhallas, the Omega Mikros, and several others in the last several years. In most cases I have had both the speakerwires and the interconnects.
The Indra made me forget about the Siltechs which had proved the best to that point. I still revere the open soundstage of the Indra. I tried the CTs with low expectations, and indeed when I first introduced only the interconnects, I thought they would soon go back. The combination of the interconnects and the speakerwires, however changed my resolve to return them. The second night, however, I knew I would keep them. In part because they were a good buy, but in many ways they are unrivaled by other cables.
They had great dynamics and a thunderous bass as well as a very plausible soundstage realism, but it was the neutrality of them with no glow that I hear in gold cables nor brightness often heard in silver. Only the Omega Mikros rivaled them here, but they have poor base.
One thing that I have learned is that they hate to be moved and take several hours to get back to where they were. This makes A/Bing them impossible. Also despite what Robert Grost says, they need to be isolated from the ground. I also found they hum when used between my transformer and phono stage.
Other than the admonition that your mileage may vary, I do not know why others have different opinions. Robert says that only one person has returned cables under his return policy.
>>All-encompassing statements like "you shouldn't use it"<<
If you re-read my post I said nothing of the sort. Please don't include me when "we should take time to clarify things a bit". That's up to you if you feel so inclined; I was simply making a point that some cables cannot be "cooked". That is a fact. Nothing more and nothing less.
Audiofeil, sorry....I was using the 'collective' we, and should have been more specific. As far as your point about "some cables", I felt more explanation was in order as to *why* those cables should not be Cooked, but there is also a solution with custom step-down adaptors. That there is more to this subject than simply saying "don't do that" was my point.
Stan, come on now :) I don't have 80k speakers, but by all accounts my Merlins are among the most 'revealing' of all speakers. Same with my amps, Bernings are noted for clarity and transparency, not coloring the sound in any way, or at least coloration at the bare minimum, the Audio Aero is by all accounts one of the top two or 3 one-box CDP's out there, and my preamp (Tron) is no slouch either. Maybe what would be a better statement than someone's system isn't 'good enough' to reveal the difference is that some systems are better matches for the Cerious than others.
I have tried, as I posted in the other thread about Cerious, Kubala-Sosna Emotions, Harmonic tech cyberlights, Stereovox Reference, HMS Gran Finale, and beta Indras, and the differences in sound are clearly and immediately evident. Does the Cerious better all of these cables in every way in my system? NO. Each of these cables has some strong points. Some have weightier bass, some have more extended highs, some have tighter bass, some throw a bigger soundstage, some pass more low level detail. To me, right now, the Cerious is the best 'compromise', (I don't like to use that word compromise, because it sounds like a back-handed way to say the cables really aren't all that) because it comes close enough to the other cables in all of these areas without screwing up something else. If you can find me a cable with the bass weight of the Kubala's, along with the bass clarity and definition of the Stereovox, the low-level detail retrieval of the Cyberlights, etc. etc. etc. I'll buy it, I'm not married to Cerious or any other particular brand.
Stanhifi's post of 9/28: "Perhaps our systems are more sophisticated and reveal the inherent weaknesses of the Cerious cables. Just a thought."
Stan, this has gotten silly. You've been asked repeatedly to post your system, but you don't even respond about why you won't. Oneprof, Tbg and I have "revealed" : ) our systems, as have many others.
Jfz, I have many IsoClean power cords and use their ac isolation equipment. In all cases I have plugged the one CT power cord I have into the IsoClean plug in box. It sounds more dynamic and quick than the IsoClean but the IsoClean Super Focus cords have more profound bass and are quieter. There is no contest when you weigh in cost, but I am not selling any of my IsoClean cords.
I compared the CT interconnects using the Acapellas speakerwires and with the CT speakerwires. With the CT wires also in the system, the sound was noticably more open and neutral. In short the sound had more of the characteristic sound or lack of sound of the CTs.
All that I can suggest is that you take Robert up on his offer to give you a 14 day trial period.
I have complete set of CTs in my system including the
CT PCs I can say for sure if given time and effort for bit of tweeking you will have the bestsound from your system
before CT's I was running Indra's , Before that Luminous
Reference silver,Since CT's I haven't had the the urged to go back to Indra's. Norm I have spoken to you on the phone
when you were in Australia @ Richard Wongs place Last weekend Richard paid me a visit he brought all the cables with him Valhala, AQ Sky, Bochino,etc we played around a
lot I agree with Norm on direct AB others will sound more impressive but once the CT'settled they are the best I've heard on my System,don't get me wrong I love the Indra's
an I'm keeping them but I just can't seem to go back to them.Thats after 3-4months of having CT's. Trick is you have to adjust your setup as CT's are very different Sounding to me they are very Natural or Real sounding
my Advice is if you trying CT cables Least you must have
two IC as one might make it sound worse than your current
IC's more you add the better the result and finaly the most important re CT's are the amount of time in your system
I'd say you judge them after two to four weeks on your system not by just AB with others instantly.
I'm the Dealer Australia for CT's, Indra's and Luminous
Again, for those above who had the pleasure of experience...how do Indra vs CT sound different? What characteristics? My system as listed:...and was wondering how replacing my Khara cables with either of the two would chg/improve the sound I get..? I mostly listen to jazz, blues, rock, fusion. Any guidance would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance!
I guess you could call me "Mr. Cerious", Bob Grost. I wanted to clear up some questions on "cooking" CT cables. First, it will never hurt any of our cables, as each conductor can carry large amounts of current before failure. Even the interconnects are current limited by the connectors. The actual conductors can pass very high currents. So have no fears of failure. Second, even as the designer, I cannot say without question that a cable cooker will improve or add nothing to the listening process. I have clients on each side as to the question of needing no break in, including many that insist they improved over time. I, personally believe that in my experience it is the settling process of the jacket damping that affects this change, but it is an improvement, none the less. I would like to thank all who have given us the opportunity to earn your business and appreciate the civility and enthusiasm of those posting on this, and other like minded, sites.
Well I just talked to Bob about Cable Cooker.
Busy guy these days. He says that the use of the Cable Cooker is a good thing and is recommended and will do NO damage to his cables.
He said the confusion comes up about cable break in. He believes his cables do not require the usual long break in period so he tells people that a cable cooker is not necessary. But if you have access to one use it.
I couldn't agree more with Pat about trying to A/B CT cables. I had the occasion to disconnect part of my system on Saturday, and just that process (which included moving the CTs)resulted in the interconnects needing settling time to sound good again. It was amazing to me how much of a difference there was...very similar to what I experienced when I first received them.
I have not heard the CT cables but this business of A-B comparisons being impossible makes me very uneasy. Memory in general and aural memory in particular have been well documented to be very capricious. Although I trust my subjective impressions and those of some other listeners I know this situation takes us fairly far into the realm of faith. I do not wish to misconstrued as challenging anyones credibility or arguing for DBT as neither are my intention. Cerious Technologies cables may indeed represent a new standard but how do we know what we "know"?